Why so little support for Irish lager?

grenache

Its a question i've asked several people but nobody can quite put their finger on it for me! Ok, we were never big lager consumers traditonally until 20 years ago or so, and the list of Irish lagers is limited to Harp (who's cutting hoppyness i actually appreciate), Kinsale Irish Lager and the small Cork-based Franciscan well brewery lagers.

I know we're famous for our ales and stouts, with the odd wheat beer experiment thrown in here and there, but why is it that Irish breweries don't throw out a few more home grown indigneous Irish lagers? The goverment don't do half enough in terms of funding for microbreweries such as Carlow Brewing Company and the Porterhouse. Obviously Diageo and Heineken brew many international brand lagers these days, but the majority of these are rubbish, in my opinion. With four beers (Heineken, Budweiser, Carlsberg, Miller) having upwards of 80% of the Irish pub market for lager, there certainly is room for an Irish lager to move in and make their presence felt.

Lets take Harp as a case example. It is huge up North, the biggest selling lager, its popularity there has never waned, totally in contrast to its decline this side of the border. And the reason its No 1 in the North? - clever marketing, constant media exposure through tv, radio and newspaper, and sponsorship of major sporting and music events. Why could Diageo not do the same with Harp in the Republic?

Its virtually mission impossible to find Harp on tap in any city or town in the Republic, yet the majority of rural pubs still have it on tap. Are the taste buds of those in the country that different to those in the city? Again it comes back to how Harp is portrayed, as an ''old mans drink'', something your father drank in his younger days! With a little bit of marketing and promotion, Harp could rightfully take its place beside Heineken and Budweiser. With bigger sales down south, then surely Diageo would never have taken the decision to shut down production at the Great Northern Brewery in Dundalk.

Well thats my tuppence, opinons welcome!

AlmightyCushion

Well it's a catch 22 situation. If it's not in the pubs people can't drink it and it will stay un-popular, if people don't drink it then it won't be put in the pubs. The thing is most people have their beer or drink. They stay with that drink for years and rarely deviate from it. This means they don't experience other beers.

BeerNut

Short answer, OP, is a technical one: lager is very difficult to make. You need careful temperature control, and unless you have some big, specialist equipment and a lot of time, it's more trouble than it's worth. Once you add in the dominance of the big brands, the only reason you'd make a lager is if you refused to sell the big brands, hence the lagers from the 'Well and Porterhouse.

It has been said that "People don't drink lager, they drink advertising". It would be very hard to get enough marketing momentum behind a new Irish lager to take market share from the big foreign lager brands, brands which already have a loyal following who won't even look at other beer options at the bar. The limitations of the style mean you won't be able to market it on taste alone as there just isn't that much room for improvement.

A lot of microbreweries, including Carlow, do a wheat beer instead. College Green in Belfast do a (tasty) blonde ale instead.

Besides, drinkers of pale lager are in no position to complain about lack of choice in Ireland

valz_walsh

But its not just the Irish larger thats losing out. Look at Beamish or Murphys in Cork, we could be losing one of them in a few months time due to the Heinekin takeover. Beamish itself has been around since 1792!! I know we have Guinness but at the end of the day its made all over the world, and has lost its Irishness in my opinion. It is being brought in from other countries in to the Irish market. Bulmurs which is Irish is brought in from England as Magners. Beamish is only brewed in Cork, and distributed from the brewery in Cork to a few countries around the world.

Its a pity that more Irish people dont support the larger and stout thats actually made in the country!

RE*AC*TOR

Hoffmans.... enough said.

BeerNut

valz_walsh wrote: »

Beamish itself has been around since 1792!! I know we have Guinness but at the end of the day its made all over the world, and has lost its Irishness in my opinion.

Murphy's is also made all over the world. Has it lost its Irishness too?

valz_walsh wrote: »

Beamish is only brewed in Cork, and distributed from the brewery in Cork to a few countries around the world.

It's still foreign-owned, though. Has been since 1962.

valz_walsh wrote: »

Its a pity that more Irish people dont support the larger and stout thats actually made in the country!

I think it's a much bigger pity that people prefer not to drink the beer that's made in the country by Irish companies. Especially when it's so often of a higher quality.

valz_walsh

Murphys is distributed around the world, but produced in another coutry, I dont think so. Its like Beamish as far as Im aware. Yep Beamish and Crawford was owned by S&N, (with the way things are going at the moment its out on its own) but its still only made in Ireland. Outside of Cork, popularity isnt that high for Murphys. It hasnt lost its Irishness as its simply not as popular as the bigger players, and has to market itself as made in Cork to encourage Cork people to buy it. In fact I think that the advertising for Murphys is far better than that of Beamish. Im not taking it for granted that no one outside Cork buys it. I understand its sold as a premium beer in Dublin pubs.

I guess the Irish owned brewerys just cannt compete which is a shame. Iv been to the Franciscans Well and its a great pub. Great atmosphere and great beer.

BeerNut

valz_walsh wrote: »

Murphys is distributed around the world, but produced in another coutry, I dont think so.

From page 146 of Heineken's 2007 annual report you'll find a list of the breweries where they make Murphy's. The stout is made in France, Ireland, Italy, Switzerland and Greece. By the looks of it, they don't make it more places because of arrangements to brew Guinness under licence instead.

valz_walsh wrote: »

Yep Beamish and Crawford was owned by S&N

I think technically it still is, pending the Competition Authority's decision. It would be nice to see them going independent, and thriving at it.

valz_walsh

Thanks Beernut, I had no idea that Murphys were actually made outside Ireland. I actually got on to a buddy of mine that works in Heinekin Ireland and she didnt think it was made outside Cork either. Good research!!

Breamish and Crawford are reporting to an independant auditor. S&N are gone, they are now S&N Heinekin. Beamish and Crawford are not showing Heinekin there accounts as both companies are in competition with eachother, and if accounts were show that would give Heinekin a competitive advantage if the sale doesn't go through.

BeerNut

valz_walsh wrote: »

Good research!!

Breamish and Crawford are reporting to an independant auditor

Back atcha . I didn't know this, but it does make a lot more sense than having S&N hang on in limbo while the tiddly Beamish issue is sorted out.

After all, if we made Heineken and Carlsberg angry, they would become huge and green and mindlessly destructive.

Oh. Right. Yeah...

valz_walsh

BeerNut,
On the link of Heinekins annual report, (maybe Im reading it wrong) it says what brands that are sold in those countries, not that they actually make Murphys in those countries.

I could be wrong in saying that, but Heinekin could easily be bringing it in from Ireland and just distributing it from there breweries worldwide.

The way it stands at the moment if Heinekin did take over Beamish and Crawford then we'd have a duoply in Ireland, with Heinekin taking the majority share of about 52%, to Diageo's 40% something, leaving VERY little chance for a small Irish owned brewer to get a piece of the action. Be it larger or stout!!!:(

BeerNut

valz_walsh wrote: »

BeerNut,
On the link of Heinekins annual report, (maybe Im reading it wrong) it says what brands that are sold in those countries, not that they actually make Murphys in those countries.

It's not clear: that's true. However on p.145 it says their beers "are also brewed under licence or imported into several other Western European markets", which strongly implies that the listing does not include imports. There's no UK entry because Heineken had no brewing operations of their own in the UK at the end of 2007. The Heineken brand was sold, but not mentioned here because this, as I read it, is just about brewing.

I tracked down the UK-made Murphy's at the InBev site. It's brewed in Wales, AFAIK.

valz_walsh wrote: »

The way it stands at the moment if Heinekin did take over Beamish and Crawford then we'd have a duoply in Ireland

That's not how Heineken see it. Their argument is that the market should not be seen as just beer, but includes all long alcoholic drinks. This puts C&C in second place, making the Beamish takeover an acceptable union of the third and fourth players. Can't see that one washing, though.

valz_walsh wrote: »

with Heinekin taking the majority share of about 52%, to Diageo's 40% something

That's lager only, though. I take it you're quoting the piece in the Examiner the other day. In beer generally, Beamish have about 10% and Heineken 22% Diageo still have about 50%, last I read.

valz_walsh

Ya that was the artical I read. Dont know how the whole thing is going to go down. I know that Diageo have put in a complaint. But I guess there opinions would be considered kinda bias.

But even if the competitions authority say that Heinekin cannt take over Beamish, and if Carlsburg cannt afford the company, (Carlsburg are reportedly a bit on the broke side after their part of the contract, and the land that Beamish and Crawford is on is apparantly 5million euro an acre, and theres between 4-6 acres), then Beamish and Crawford would be sold off seperatly, and therefore opening the doors to a management buy out, or worse to a developer who'd make it into a hotel or something!!

BeerNut

Carlsberg wouldn't have any interest in the brewery. Nobody who isn't already in the Irish market would have any interest, and the wisest move for anyone who is in Ireland would be to close the whole thing down: that's how Guinness, Murphy's and Beamish got where they are today -- by preying on, and destroying, weaker breweries.

We won't see a new big international brewer because Irish beer is dead. There's next-to no growth in the market. Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa is where it's at, and it's Carlsberg's grab for S&N's Russian interests that brought all this on in the first place.

The Examiner reports that Gleeson's, the Tipperary Water people, might be interested.

valz_walsh

I hadnt seen that artical about Gleesons. I guess no one knows whats going to happen in the long run. It a nice little brewery, and a bit of a visitor attraction, itd be sad to see it go.

With whats happening with the econonmy at the moment, that if the brewery does close down, I hope the employees find other jobs!!


I think we've strayed off the point of the thread though!!!

grenache

valz_walsh wrote: »

Bulmurs which is Irish is brought in from England as Magners

Bulmers is not brought in from England. Its made by Showerings in Clonmel and exported to England as Magners.

eyebrows63

coors light, murphys and heineken are all brewed in cork. heineken have no bottling plant in cork so i guess they are keeping one eye on the plant in b&c. the coors is actually bottled by showerings in clonmel

BeerNut

eyebrows63 wrote: »

heineken have no bottling plant in cork

That would presumably explain why they're going to the bother of getting Irish-strength Heineken produced and bottled/canned in the Netherlands.

I'm surprised it's not worth their while to get the gear set up locally.