Forest of the Dead se 04 ep 09

Doctor DooM

That was awesome.

Some of the best television sci fi I have seen.

Bit of the matrix in there for fun.

Still didn't establish if River is family or a lover...

pace was great, story great, villians great, reveals great.

CathyMoran

I loved that but I was crying at the end of it (am a wuss!)

Doctor DooM

CathyMoran wrote: »

I loved that but I was crying at the end of it (am a wuss!)

Aw *Hugs*

It was so well done!

Jack B. Badd

Although I loved the episode, I can't help thinking it slightly irresponsible of Moffat to instil a fear of books in his predominantly young audience...;)

Doctor DooM

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Although I loved the episode, I can't help thinking it slightly irresponsible of Moffat to instil a fear of books in his predominantly young audience...;)

I would think being afraid of gas masks would be a potentially much more dangerous fear.

pixelburp

Yeah, that was a whole pile of awesome right there, great resolution to the story & so bittersweet too. Not just the Doctor losing his love (sorry, River wasn't family, he was obviously his lover - why else would he have told her his name?), but Donna losing her husband; I loved the end when we find that he was real all along.

The "Matrix" style stuff was nicely done with quite a dark edge to it as well - Ms. Whatshername's warped face & the children disappearing from their beds. Moffat really knows how to write some dark stuff.

And yeah, the ending was a bit weepy, wasn't it?

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, that was a whole pile of awesome right there, great resolution to the story & so bittersweet too. Not just the Doctor losing his love (sorry, River wasn't family, he was obviously his lover - why else would he have told her his name?), but Donna losing her husband; I loved the end when we find that he was real all along.

The "Matrix" style stuff was nicely done with quite a dark edge to it as well - Ms. Whatshername's warped face & the children disappearing from their beds. Moffat really knows how to write some dark stuff.

And yeah, the ending was a bit weepy, wasn't it?

I am aware of both my parents names.

The Matrix stuff was very well done. I liked the way the world started falling apart... I loved that Doctor moon was effectively Nortons anti virus...

I loved the goth thing with Evangilesta... And I loved the way Lux was a good man in a rough position.

Jack B. Badd

pixelburp wrote: »

Donna losing her husband; I loved the end when we find that he was real all along.

That was a fantastically cruel scene when your man was on the teleporter and couldn't say Donna's name.

Doctor DooM

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

That was a fantastically cruel scene when your man was on the teleporter and couldn't say Donna's name.

I must be evil, I laughed at first...

deRanged

I liked how the little girl in the episode hid behind a cushion watching the scary reveal. I liked the subtle switches when the shadows claimed another victim. I liked it all really, even the sappy schmalz take note other Who writers!

now I wish I didn't have so many books

Jack B. Badd

SDooM wrote: »

I must be evil, I laughed at first...

I laughed my ass off at the "But I was dieting!" comment.

iUseVi

Very good all round. Thought the ending was lame when he put the screwdriver on the book. But then I looked at the clock and saw 5 minutes left. Turned out it was a class ending.

Ginny

That was one of my favourites so far, very clever very well done, I hope the rest of the episodes are at least half as good as that.
Much better then the Sontaran ones.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

am I the only one who thought it was a bit ****?

pixelburp

SDooM wrote: »

I am aware of both my parents names.

The Matrix stuff was very well done. I liked the way the world started falling apart... I loved that Doctor moon was effectively Nortons anti virus...

I loved the goth thing with Evangilesta... And I loved the way Lux was a good man in a rough position.

Fair enough if you take that moment on its own, but every other aspect of Songs behaviour was of a wife looking at a man who doesn't know her. Besides, Lux's comments about the Doc & River being like "An old married couple" & Rivers little speech about seeing pictures of a person before they met you clearly telegraph to the audience that she was his lover.

Agreed about Lux; I was expecting (and he was acting in the manner of) the stereotypical evil plot that went horribly wrong, but it was something a bit more personal & he even got to save the day (ish)

Fysh

The whole thing with the neural receiver or whatever it was called in the enhanced screwdriver was a nice touch, and led to a nice way of saving the day (hoho, see what I did there?) while still having "real" deaths that allowed the tension to flourish.

So will we see any of the doctor's future involvement with River Song? Given her comments about his age, I don't think it can happen any time soon but it would be awkward to keep it as a future storyline so I suspect it'll be tucked away into one of those points where he disappears off for a while. Which is a shame, she seemed an interesting character and the interplay between her and the Doctor was fantastic.

pixelburp

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

am I the only one who thought it was a bit ****?

A bit 4 stars? No not at all, though why didn't you think it was a 5-star episode?

Jack B. Badd

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

am I the only one who thought it was a bit ****?

Yes

Doctor DooM

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I laughed my ass off at the "But I was dieting!" comment.

Oh so did I. It's the little moments.

iUseVi wrote: »

Very good all round. Thought the ending was lame when he put the screwdriver on the book. But then I looked at the clock and saw 5 minutes left. Turned out it was a class ending.

Thought exactly the same thing, the fake ending was what so many people here predicted!

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

am I the only one who thought it was a bit ****?

Yes. clearly your ****ometer needs recalibrating!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i hate you all

pixelburp

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

i hate you all

Awww
*hugs*

Doctor DooM

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

i hate you all

Mordy needs some love?

Seriously, what did you think was wrong with it?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i don't really remember, i watched it on tv so I can't flick through it to refresh it just felt... off.

i might dl it tonight and comment tomorrow

ixoy

Excellent - if only Moffat could run this show. Oh wait ...

Now admittedly some of this was ruined in the sense that I guessed a huge chunk of it - River Song's ending and the matrix element - but it was so well put together that it didn't matter. I did like finding out who Moon was (that was neat) and I didn't fully get the identity of Cal right either.

Donna in the matrix (fans: we shouldn't say Matrix as that was on Gallifrey!) was neatly done and the way it had a dream like quality. Tate did herself proud in these scenes (on a side note: any significance to their being 3 kids beds in the final scene when prior to that there had only been 2 kids beds repeated?)

I'm guessing Moffat doesn't like spoilers either - he'd be a good mod here! The temptation to be able to guess and fix everything must've been strong, but the Doctor's not one to cross or interfere with his own time line, unless there's an anniversary special coming up. He was strong here and believable as a powerful force, without having to resort to comic caricature that he has in other two-parters. The finger clicking to open the TARDIS was a great demonstration of this.

SFX looked quite good in this episode - they've been a lot stronger this year. Music was, as ever, a little over-bearing but I think it was reigned in more this week than last.

Now will Tennant be in the role for years to come, given he has to meet River Song again? I got the impression that he meets her at different intervals, rather than one continuous stretch so that could easily lead to her appearing in specials and/or a side book series.

Far and away the best story of the season (4 for 4) and from the look of next weeks that status is not going to be threatened soon. Well done Moffat!

That ep pretty much confirmed what we were all thinking. When Moffat takes over it will be epic.

Mr E

Great episode, with a fantastic ending. Easily the best of the season.

Bard

Thoroughly enjoyed it. Very well written and performed. ...Although the Matrix analogy was a little too strong.

Oh and it's my guess that River Song is either another timelord (is this possible?), the Doctor's future wife or at least a very close and special travelling companion. They certainly seem to be alluding to the fact that they're very closely connected, that she is incredibly important to him in the future and that he trusts her implicitly,- particularly by the fact that she knows his real name - which it seems is a closely guarded secret that he wouldn't tell just anyone.

The final scene (with Song meeting up with the others in the virtual world) totally reminded me of the end "sunset" scene in Matrix: Revolutions (except with GOOD dialogue, and not the sh!tty dialogue from that Architect eejit... )

iguana

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

am I the only one who thought it was a bit ****?

I didn't really like the end. I didn't see the point in putting River into the library computer. Great as books are, life without change would turn into a type of hell. What is the point in raising children who will never grow or having relationships that will never grow and change. And what was the point of saving her to a place she can never leave and where you can never interact with each other?

And why would the screwdriver have been needed to do that, as the suit did it for everyone else? I think it would have been better if they left her dead. Every future meeting would be filled with a bitter sweet poignancy which is lost now. Also I disliked Moffat's self-reference with the whole "everybody lives" statement.

ixoy wrote: »

(on a side note: any significance to their being 3 kids beds in the final scene when prior to that there had only been 2 kids beds repeated?)

The third child was Charlotte.

I believe that River was his wife as it explains the constant Doctor and Mrs Noble mix-ups at the start of the series.

Bard

Regarding the Doctor's real name, could it actually be "Doctor Who"? ... Although that wouldn't be much of a secret to the viewers, the characters may not know it. There's an interesting article about his name (and if it is, in fact, "Doctor Who"), here.

That theory aside, there's been suggestions that his real name, in the language of his home planet of Gallifrey is difficult or impossible for humans to pronounce but that the first part of it sounds like "Who".

Also, the character "Madame de Pompadour" in the episode "The Girl in the Fireplace" said something along the lines of "your name is more than just a secret" after reading his mind, IIRC. Seems from this most recent episode (with River Song revealing that she knows his name) that you don't get to learn the doctor's real name unless you've really earned his trust.

Knowledge is power and all that...

The Master

In The Armageddon Factor we hear his name "Theta Sigma"

Its actually his college nickname but as close as were going to get I think

iUseVi

You notice that River Song doesn't whisper for a very long. So not a long name....probably reading slightly too much into that.:pac::pac:

ixoy

Robster The Lobster wrote: »

In The Armageddon Factor we hear his name "Theta Sigma"

Its actually his college nickname but as close as were going to get I think

He's got loads of different names, as his legend builds over time. Here's a sample:

The Doctor, Doctor John Smith, Merlin, Muldwych, the Ripper, the Sandman, Theta Sigma, the Valeyard;

(applied to him by others) the Dark One, Doctor Who, Eighth Man Bound, the Evergreen Man, the Evil One, He Whose Name Dare Not Be Mentioned, the Ka Faraq Gatri, the Other, the Relic; the Saviour, Snail, Thete, Time's Champion, Wormhole; by the Chinese he is sometimes called Wu (the Tiger, for his courage), sometimes Wu (the Fox, for his cunning), and most often Wu (He Who Tends to the Sick)

Goodshape

Fantastic episode.

Regarding River.. a wee bit annoyed that we didn't find out who she was, but at the same time leaving a bit of mystery is good too. I just hope they get around to it at some point.

Anyway, my money is either on his lover/wife or his granddaughter. Let's not forget (although I almost wish that I could... *shudder*) that the Doctor's got a cloned 'daughter' running about the place from a few episodes ago. And she looks like the promiscuous fun-loving type :pac:

pixelburp

By the by, just aimed at the people who think River was family; surely to god what blows that theory out of the water was the excahnge near the end between the Doc & herself:

Doctor: Handcuffs? What do you have handcuffs for?
River: *grins* Spoilers!

If that's his granddaughter, then we're suddenly into slightly... *slightly* dodgy ground there

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

By the by, just aimed at the people who think River was family; surely to god what blows that theory out of the water was the excahnge near the end between the Doc & herself:

Doctor: Handcuffs? What do you have handcuffs for?
River: *grins* Spoilers!

If that's his granddaughter, then we're suddenly into slightly... *slightly* dodgy ground there

What happens of Gallifrey stays on Gallifrey, dude.

Goodshape

pixelburp wrote: »

Doctor: Handcuffs? What do you have handcuffs for?
River: *grins* Spoilers!

If that's his granddaughter, then we're suddenly into slightly... *slightly* dodgy ground there

Haha, didn't think of that one!

They were certainly making her out to be his wife alright. Just that I always tend to think the most obvious conclusion is usually just a distraction. And (while I'm not all that learned on the entire history of the Doctor), himself getting married doesn't really seem to be in character, does it?


About that ending though -- I loved the 'false ending' gimmick. Very exciting and well done. But the idea of 'saving' River in the library was woeful, imho. Seemed to me like she was getting imprisoned in a false and inescapable reality for all eternity, rather than being allowed to die a natural and peaceful death.

After convincing Donna not 15minutes before hand that 'none of this is real' and 'these aren't your kids', that seemed unintentionally horrific to me... and the only real downside of the whole episode.

Fysh

Re: the "imprisonment" in the library - I'm not sure that a sudden death caused by putting one's brain into a computer so that it can repair itself counts as peaceful and natural, tbh.

On another note, maybe there's a way of using the CAL virtual reality combined with the teleporters to resurrect people whose consciousnesses have been "saved" into the machine? Or maybe the possibility was enough to have the Doctor make the attempt? With CAL was repaired River could easily enough ask for her personality to be "switched off" if she really was tired of being kept alive, after all. But at least she'd be going in there knowing that she had died in the "real" world rather than being made to believe that her past life was just a dream...

Doctor DooM

Fysh wrote: »

Re: the "imprisonment" in the library - I'm not sure that a sudden death caused by putting one's brain into a computer so that it can repair itself counts as peaceful and natural, tbh.

On another note, maybe there's a way of using the CAL virtual reality combined with the teleporters to resurrect people whose consciousnesses have been "saved" into the machine? Or maybe the possibility was enough to have the Doctor make the attempt? With CAL was repaired River could easily enough ask for her personality to be "switched off" if she really was tired of being kept alive, after all. But at least she'd be going in there knowing that she had died in the "real" world rather than being made to believe that her past life was just a dream...

I thought that as well.

They have her personality and her DNA. The society was significantly high tech to store a body as a bit stream, and replace its mind, it could do it for a cloned body.

Goodshape

Fysh wrote: »

I'm not sure that a sudden death caused by putting one's brain into a computer so that it can repair itself counts as peaceful and natural, tbh.

Regardless, I think I'd rather stay dead than get 'resurrected' into some virtual reality world.

On another note, maybe there's a way of using the CAL virtual reality combined with the teleporters to resurrect people whose consciousnesses have been "saved" into the machine?

Well that's what I thought the Doctor was running off to do -- resurrect her from the databanks into the real world. But then he just stuck her in the machine and walked off happy as Larry

Better than death maybe... but only maybe. Wouldn't be unlike an episode of Doctor Who to have him freeing people from such an existence tbh.

monkeyfudge

Well she's there for the future Doctor who knows her better to come along and meet her again.

Moffat said he in Doctor Who Confidential afterwards that hw doesn't believe in a soul himself, so the library would be the closest thing to heaven.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well if he didn't think it was a decent enough place to put her, he would have destroyed the whole machine seeing as how there was a little girl trapped in there forever.

Nevyn

Two lovers traveling in different directions through time, dating.
Meh Dan Simions did it first.

ixoy

Thaedydal wrote: »

Two lovers traveling in different directions through time, dating.
Meh Dan Simions did it first.

It isn't really the same is it? For the most part River Song and the Doctor's timelines travel in the same order - the only thing incongruous is that his first meeting with her is her last meeting with him. Other than that it's linear and would only be like Simmons if River Song started ageing backwards...

Kroton

For some reason i still find it a shame that the whole library is now lost.

monkeyfudge

Kroton wrote: »

For some reason i still find it a shame that the whole library is now lost.

Although Song's diary would be a tempting weapon to use against the doctor if ever a villain decided it was worth the risk venturing to the library to get it.

Kroton

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Although Song's diary would be a tempting weapon to use against the doctor if ever a villain decided it was worth the risk venturing to the library to get it.

good deterent i suppose. i hope there are future storylines with it involved

iguana

ixoy wrote: »

Other than that it's linear and would only be like Simmons if River Song started ageing backwards...

It's not, her life is linear but she has obviously met him at different points throughout his life. When she first met him in the library she got out her diary to ask if they had done certain things yet, so she could get a handle on which point of his life he was at. And it seemed like the automatic thing she does whenever she meets him.

ixoy

iguana wrote: »

It's not, her life is linear but she has obviously met him at different points throughout his life. When she first met him in the library she got out her diary to ask if they had done certain things yet, so she could get a handle on which point of his life he was at. And it seemed like the automatic thing she does whenever she meets him.

Point taken - I wasn't too clear on that. So essentially it means she can guest star whenever she's available Still different to Simmon's book but now a lot cooler than what I originally thought. Be a bit of a bitch for continuity!

popebenny16

ixoy wrote: »

continuity!

pixelburp

That's a dirty word around Doctor Who circles

doctor evil

Surely there could some way to kill the Vashda Nerada?, like some sort of radiation that won't damage the bookds. It does seem a shame to lose the planet.

I like Alex Kingston, she interacted very well with the Doctor