Tommy Bowe has no pace, had a 10 yard head start and other George Hookism BS

zAbbo

Ok I'm bored, and I've read the same quotes about Bowe over the last week.

So being a Monaghan man, I'm sticking up for Bowe, here goes


55 seconds in is where the action starts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31tlGCYbS78

Note where Anesi was when the pass came, and has a diagonal sprint to tackle Tommy.

All of this happened in 5 seconds from Bowe receiving the pass and getting hit, Anesi as we know was clocked at 4.53 for 40 meters, lets say he's closer to 5seconds now in game conditions.

Would we be having this discussion if the offload went to hand, or if Shane Horgan was closer and ran a better line.? or would we be saying that Bowe jinked a lovely try and got two instead of one assists?

I'm critical of any Irish player who's not up to it, but the misconceptions on this forum are totally unjust.

Anyone want to suggest another winger who should play instead of 6.3" Ulster player of the year, top try scorer, poached by Scarlets player...

eoin2nc

To be fair it wouldnt take much to be Ulsters player of the year this year:p

Ok Ill give Bowe one more chance. I hope he proves you right tomorrow, and we get our first win against the All Blacks

His try was just from shocking tackling though....

thehighground

eoin2nc wrote: »

To be fair it wouldnt take much to be Ulsters player of the year this year:p

Ok Ill give Bowe one more chance. I hope he proves you right tomorrow, and we get our first win against the All Blacks

His try was just from shocking tackling though....

He won the players 'Irish Player of the Year Award' (beating Kearney, Luke etc) so he is obviously rated by his Irish team mates!

marco_polo

eoin2nc wrote: »

To be fair it wouldnt take much to be Ulsters player of the year this year:p

Ok Ill give Bowe one more chance. I hope he proves you right tomorrow, and we get our first win against the All Blacks

His try was just from shocking tackling though....

Are you kidding he has been impressive in every game he has played for Ireland this year, and absolutely excelled throughout the year for Ulster. It is unbelievable how many people swallow everything bit of crap that Hook spouts.

NaiveMelodies

He certianly doesnt have the attributes to shine on the international stage.
Poor kicker of the ball, and doesnt have anywhere near the pace of Hickie.

gjim

That's very harsh. I can't see who would deserve the spot ahead of him. And he certainly played better than Horgan yesterday. It seems he has never recovered from the bad rep he earned a few years ago when picked and dropped by EOS while semi-injured.

eroo

I detest George Hook! >:(

Sherifu

He does get more stick than he deserves.

bleg

aye. hooky is actually very entertaining.

Chucky the tree

Sherifu wrote: »

He does get more stick than he deserves.

He does get more then he deserves but he will still never be a great winger.

He'll never make a Lions team for example because he lacks the explosion you'd want from a world class winger. I'd even be suprised if he ever makes a Lions squad.


At the moment he deserves to be in the Irish team, but if he still manages to keep his place for the next 4 or 5 years then it's really not a good sign of the talent we have brought through.

a_bomb

I agree that he deserves to be in the team at the moment but he simply isnt good enough!!!! He doesnt offer anything in attack-he is a standard provincial player! You will not win 6Nations, Granslams or World cups with average players like him on the national team(even on the squad)

If you look at other nations they all have world class wingers Aurelien Rougerie, Sitiveni Sivivatu or even the Coke snorting Wendal Sailor!!!!

I dont care if your from Monaghan or not he is ****!!! Get over and it piss off back to your cabage farm on your Massey Ferguson!!!

Stev_o

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He does get more then he deserves but he will still never be a great winger.

He'll never make a Lions team for example because he lacks the explosion you'd want from a world class winger. I'd even be suprised if he ever makes a Lions squad.


At the moment he deserves to be in the Irish team, but if he still manages to keep his place for the next 4 or 5 years then it's really not a good sign of the talent we have brought through.

But he's still the best we got and is fine form why everyone wants to go around and put him down at every chance is beyond me. Yes he never be the greatest winger in Europe but my god he's doing Ireland a great service in time of desperate need and i think we should be all greatfull for that.

Chucky the tree

Stev_o wrote: »

But he's still the best we got and is fine form why everyone wants to go around and put him down at every chance is beyond me. Yes he never be the greatest winger in Europe but my god he's doing Ireland a great service in time of desperate need and i think we should be all greatfull for that.

I wouldnt go that far. How's he doing us a great serivce? He's playign well but if he was to get a serious injury in the next match it wouldnt be a massive lose to us. We have plenty of cover for him.


Another big reason he gets alot of abuse is because he has taken over from Hickie and people expect alot now from an Irish 11.

zAbbo

Feel free to mention the alternatives to Tommy.

If he was playing for Munster or Leinster and some of you got to see the form he has showed throughtout the season, there would be less insults going his way.

We're going to have a short term shortage of wingers as Kearney moves into FB, while Fitz is groomed for the midfield.

The main point of this thread was to highlight the poorly informed tripe which George Hook peddles, which then becomes Gospel with some 'fans'

a_bomb, I'm not even going to bother replying to your post, you'll probably be handed a ban anyway.

RuggieBear

a_bomb wrote: »

I dont care if your from Monaghan or not he is ****!!! Get over and it piss off back to your cabage farm on your Massey Ferguson!!!

banned.

Sherifu

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Another big reason he gets alot of abuse is because he has taken over from Hickie and people expect alot now from an Irish 11.

I haven't seen him in so much as 1 wavin ad yet. Shameful.

[Jackass]

Tommy Bowe is a decent player at club level. Effective on the wing, strong and scores trys.

At international level, he's an average player at best. Not much pace, not great hands, average finisher. Nuff said really.

I know he works hard and he gives it everything, but I'd work hard and give it everything if I was on the wing for Ireland too, doesn't mean I'm good enough to compete at that level.

He's a poor mans Horgan. I think Horgan has probably get about 5 yards on him with pace, He's bigger, He's stronger and Horgan is probably the best finsiher in the Irish sqaud.

I can understand people sticking up for Bowe if he's being abused, but why try and pretend like he's good enough for international level?

I know people expected a lot when Hickie left, but you look at international rugby wingers for all the top nations, nearly all of them have either massivley powerful and great finisher or they have a complete speed merchant who only needs a few blades of grass beside the touch line to make 30 yard + break and score you a try.

Bowe is neither and he's competent, he will do baiscs, but he's not good enough to be in a team that wants to be taken seriously at winning 6 nations tournaments, never mind doing well at world cups.

The only reason that level of expectation is there is because that is the level that is required, and while I admire Bowe, I'm not going to pretend like that's the No.11 jersey sorted now, he's filling in a massive void in the backline since Hickie has left, Kearney has gone FB and Fitz is moving to centre.

I'd imagine the postion will eventually go to Fitzgerald, as he'll probably be forced onto the left wing for Leinster and no doubt will go there for Ireland. Unless Naewaca goes on the left wing and Sexton & D'Arcy are the bench players with Fitzgerald playing centre, then we still have no good options on left.

But I don't "dislike" Bowe, he's just not good enough imo.

Also, I've never heard George Hook talk about him and I don't think a TV pundit will make up our minds as to a player based on one nights performance.

zAbbo

[Jackass] wrote: »

Also, I've never heard George Hook talk about him and I don't think a TV pundit will make up our minds as to a player based on one nights performance.

George Hook + Stan Wrights first game for Leinster...he absolutely slated him.

marco_polo

[Jackass] wrote: »

Tommy Bowe is a decent player at club level. Effective on the wing, strong and scores trys.

At international level, he's an average player at best. Not much pace, not great hands, average finisher. Nuff said really.

I know he works hard and he gives it everything, but I'd work hard and give it everything if I was on the wing for Ireland too, doesn't mean I'm good enough to compete at that level.

He's a poor mans Horgan. I think Horgan has probably get about 5 yards on him with pace, He's bigger, He's stronger and Horgan is probably the best finsiher in the Irish sqaud.

I can understand people sticking up for Bowe if he's being abused, but why try and pretend like he's good enough for international level?

I know people expected a lot when Hickie left, but you look at international rugby wingers for all the top nations, nearly all of them have either massivley powerful and great finisher or they have a complete speed merchant who only needs a few blades of grass beside the touch line to make 30 yard + break and score you a try.

Bowe is neither and he's competent, he will do baiscs, but he's not good enough to be in a team that wants to be taken seriously at winning 6 nations tournaments, never mind doing well at world cups.

The only reason that level of expectation is there is because that is the level that is required, and while I admire Bowe, I'm not going to pretend like that's the No.11 jersey sorted now, he's filling in a massive void in the backline since Hickie has left, Kearney has gone FB and Fitz is moving to centre.

I'd imagine the postion will eventually go to Fitzgerald, as he'll probably be forced onto the left wing for Leinster and no doubt will go there for Ireland. Unless Naewaca goes on the left wing and Sexton & D'Arcy are the bench players with Fitzgerald playing centre, then we still have no good options on left.

But I don't "dislike" Bowe, he's just not good enough imo.

Also, I've never heard George Hook talk about him and I don't think a TV pundit will make up our minds as to a player based on one nights performance.

If it had no effect on opnion then where were all the 'Tommy Bowe is slow and crap' threads before the BaBas game? Since he has played very well since coming into the national team it can'y be based on performances.

It is hardly 4 months since Bowes absence from the team was being used a very big stick to beat EOS with (and rightly so IMO).

One other small thing is that his best and preferred position is at 14 not an 11.

gjim

He's a poor mans Horgan. I think Horgan has probably get about 5 yards on him with pace, He's bigger, He's stronger and Horgan is probably the best finsiher in the Irish sqaud.

On what basis? It certainly isn't be based on their relative performances for either province or country over the last year. Even yesterday, albeit in horrible conditions, Bowe played better than Horgan.

This is what I don't understand. Why does Bowe get this sort of stick - that he isn't up to international standard, etc. - when Horgan, who's been consistently worse, escapes it? Not that I want to deflect the criticism to Horgan - I'm a great fan of bashing Ireland players full stop - but I fail to see why some Irish players are seen as fair game for criticism on what seems to be on the basis of fashion (take a bow, G. Hooke) rather than purely on how they've performed?

For example, Stringer was far better in terms of speed and accuracy of his passing than Reddan when he came on yesterday. However, to even suggest this attracted derision from the lads around me because Stringer is one of these players on everyone's sh*tlist at the moment.

Back to Bowe, remember he's still young - only a year or two older than Kearney or Fitzgerald. His skills will improve; Hickey, our best winger since Geoghegan, really only hit his peak towards the end of his carreer. It's way to early to be writing the guy off.

dc69

gjim wrote: »

On what basis? It certainly isn't be based on their relative performances for either province or country over the last year. Even yesterday, albeit in horrible conditions, Bowe played better than Horgan.

This is what I don't understand. Why does Bowe get this sort of stick - that he isn't up to international standard, etc. - when Horgan, who's been consistently worse, escapes it? Not that I want to deflect the criticism to Horgan - I'm a great fan of bashing Ireland players full stop - but I fail to see why some Irish players are seen as fair game for criticism on what seems to be on the basis of fashion (take a bow, G. Hooke) rather than purely on how they've performed?

For example, Stringer was far better in terms of speed and accuracy of his passing than Reddan when he came on yesterday. However, to even suggest this attracted derision from the lads around me because Stringer is one of these players on everyone's sh*tlist at the moment.

Back to Bowe, remember he's still young - only a year or two older than Kearney or Fitzgerald. His skills will improve; Hickey, our best winger since Geoghegan, really only hit his peak towards the end of his carreer. It's way to early to be writing the guy off.

The thing comparing bowe to horgan is that you know,that if horgans near the line he is gona score,he is Ireland jonah lome.I think he will still be good for the next few years,he isnt ridiculously pacey but he is unbelievably strong and the way wingers are going eg sivivatu etc,we may need him for a few more years.

Regarding bowe,I agree with you.

I was screaming for him to be in the starting 11,when he was in the churchill cup team a while ago.He is a good player,but he is only really good on a dry day imo,so you wont see his best unless its a dry day and the all blacks match isnt a good match to judge him on imo.

marco_polo

gjim wrote: »

On what basis? It certainly isn't be based on their relative performances for either province or country over the last year. Even yesterday, albeit in horrible conditions, Bowe played better than Horgan.

This is what I don't understand. Why does Bowe get this sort of stick - that he isn't up to international standard, etc. - when Horgan, who's been consistently worse, escapes it? Not that I want to deflect the criticism to Horgan - I'm a great fan of bashing Ireland players full stop - but I fail to see why some Irish players are seen as fair game for criticism on what seems to be on the basis of fashion (take a bow, G. Hooke) rather than purely on how they've performed?

For example, Stringer was far better in terms of speed and accuracy of his passing than Reddan when he came on yesterday. However, to even suggest this attracted derision from the lads around me because Stringer is one of these players on everyone's sh*tlist at the moment.

Back to Bowe, remember he's still young - only a year or two older than Kearney or Fitzgerald. His skills will improve; Hickey, our best winger since Geoghegan, really only hit his peak towards the end of his carreer. It's way to early to be writing the guy off.

I remember Hickie being written off when he couldn't have been much more than Bowes age after a disasterous game on one tour, where four tries were conceeded on his wing in just one game and he had a 'mare. And look how that turned out in the end. :cool:

zAbbo

If you were going to drop a winger based on form, it would be Horgan - who's been injured or woefully off form all season.

Putting Bowe at 14 would also get the best out of him, he's a strong guy, and is a good runner.

I'm not saying he's world class, but right now we don't have world class wingers and he's got potential to be an exceptional player for us with his ability to play Wing/Centre/Full back.

Stev_o

dc69 wrote: »

The thing comparing bowe to horgan is that you know,that if horgans near the line he is gona score,he is Ireland jonah lome.I think he will still be good for the next few years,he isnt ridiculously pacey but he is unbelievably strong and the way wingers are going eg sivivatu etc,we may need him for a few more years.
.

Didnt do that against Wales when he had a straight forward finish to do.

dc69

Stev_o wrote: »

Didnt do that against Wales when he had a straight forward finish to do.

I think he did score tbh.

Stev_o

dc69 wrote: »

I think he did score tbh.

But he didnt

dc69

Stev_o wrote: »

But he didnt

He did,the referee said he didnt.
Anyway,you know what I mean.
99% of the time he will score,is that better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2YLCxxAKhA&feature=related

Sparky14

Stev_o wrote: »

Didnt do that against Wales when he had a straight forward finish to do.

Was hardly a straight forward finish. I reckon he got closer to scoring than any of our other backs could have, in fact wud hav been annoyed if anyone else had gone for it instead of recycling the ball. I also think it was a try.

louthandproud

zAbbo wrote: »

Ok I'm bored, and I've read the same quotes about Bowe over the last week.
...

Just because Hookie says something doesn't mean it isn't turue!

While I consider Bowe to be an excellent all rounder, there is no doubt he has a lack of pace which will prevent him from becoming a world class winger. As a former winger myself I am particularly sensitive to wingers getting caught for pace even if it is one of the fastest All Blacks in pursuit, in the clip above I would have expected Bowe as an international winger to make at least another 20 yards before being caught and forced to off load.

Having said that I still think he is Ireland's best option in the position at the moment. Horgan may not be faster but he isn't there for pure speed, he's a line breaker, and a good finisher when he gets the ball in a scoring position.

[Jackass]

marco_polo wrote: »

If it had no effect on opnion then where were all the 'Tommy Bowe is slow and crap' threads before the BaBas game? Since he has played very well since coming into the national team it can'y be based on performances.

Well I remembered one thread in particular talking about him, but here's my post back in March saying I don't rate Bowe at all.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55369810#post55369810

I can't remember but I'm sure I can find you about 10 other ones.

Also, I think Horgan does come in for a lot of slack...like the ABs game, were fair enough, he didn't have a great night, but his good performances for Ireland, Leinster and Lions (particularly the last tour where I felt he was the best back on the tour) and they are so soon forgotten after a poor game.

Also people don't appreciate just how quick Horgan is...if you want to see a winger that works hard, that has the pace and that will turn games look at this vid of Horgan from this years HC against Leicster...look at the headstart Murphy has in the video, Horgan completley burns Tulangi (spelling arse ways, Leicster winger) catches Murphy, puts in 2 tackles and rooks and turns over the ball...that's world class stuff that you wouldn't see Bowe do in an entire career.

marco_polo

[Jackass] wrote: »

Well I remembered one thread in particular talking about him, but here's my post back in March saying I don't rate Bowe at all.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55369810#post55369810

I can't remember but I'm sure I can find you about 10 other ones.

Also, I think Horgan does come in for a lot of slack...like the ABs game, were fair enough, he didn't have a great night, but his good performances for Ireland, Leinster and Lions (particularly the last tour where I felt he was the best back on the tour) and they are so soon forgotten after a poor game.

Also people don't appreciate just how quick Horgan is...if you want to see a winger that works hard, that has the pace and that will turn games look at this vid of Horgan from this years HC against Leicster...look at the headstart Murphy has in the video, Horgan completley burns Tulangi (spelling arse ways, Leicster winger) catches Murphy, puts in 2 tackles and rooks and turns over the ball...that's world class stuff that you wouldn't see Bowe do in an entire career.

That comments were not aimed at you specifically, just the general upsurge in anti-Bowism. I do not doubt you credentials as one of the founding members long before it was fashionable.

Leaving Ulster form aside he has impressed me in his outings in a green jersey this season, and I think he has the potential to improve even more, especially when he move to the Hairsprays and gets to play in a team with a better calibre of player on a regular basis (At least better on paper ).

It may be that he turns out not to be quite international class, but at 23-24 it is too early to make any judgements one way or the other, and I think the evidence so far suggests that this will be.

I totall agree that Horgan is a class act and I do rate him very highly but there is no hiding that he has been in poor enough form for most of the season bar in occasional patches.

gjim

Watching ML highlights just reminded me of this thread. Given his continuing form, anyone consider repenting and renouncing their anti-Bowism? Or are you all sticking to your guns? :D:D:D

Yes I guess I am stirring it a bit but I have a problem hearing young Irish players being unfairly (IMHO) slated.

marco_polo

gjim wrote: »

Watching ML highlights just reminded me of this thread. Given his continuing form, anyone consider repenting and renouncing their anti-Bowism? Or are you all sticking to your guns? :D:D:D

Yes I guess I am stirring it a bit but I have a problem hearing young Irish players being unfairly (IMHO) slated.

Lets say I am feeling pretty satisfied these days.

zAbbo

[Jackass] wrote: »

I know I'm digging this up, but I was at this game and Murphy was clattered before that clip starts, and has a heavily strapped knee, I'd say he was running at 70% tilt.

Horgan is a safe pair of hands once he doesn't kick it, he's always dependable and sometimes amazing.

gjim

I know it's a few days late but, bump...

[Jackass]

Haha! I hate you!

How the tables have turned!!

Bowe has gone to Ospreys and has been amazing all season and Horgan can't even get in the Leinster team now...lucky to get in the 22!!

In fairness though! Bowe is light years ahead of where he was last season - his game has improved no end since moving to Ospreys ... sure I would have said that before the 6 nations even kicked off!!

thomond2006

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He'll never make a Lions team for example because he lacks the explosion you'd want from a world class winger. I'd even be suprised if he ever makes a Lions squad.

Quoted for comedy value. :D

Diabhal Beag

If ye can't laught at yourself then when can you laugh I suppose. Bowe has been under massive improvement since going to Ospreys. I would have paid a thousand euro to see what happened when he returned to Wales after THAT try :pac:

zAbbo

only1stevo wrote: »

He certianly doesnt have the attributes to shine on the international stage.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He does get more then he deserves but he will still never be a great winger.

a_bomb wrote: »

I agree that he deserves to be in the team at the moment but he simply isnt good enough!!!! He doesnt offer anything in attack-he is a standard provincial player! You will not win 6Nations, Granslams or World cups with average players like him on the national team(even on the squad)

[Jackass] wrote: »

At international level, he's an average player at best. Not much pace, not great hands, average finisher. Nuff said really..

Bowe is neither and he's competent, he will do baiscs, but he's not good enough to be in a team that wants to be taken seriously at winning 6 nations tournaments, never mind doing well at world cups.

zAbbo wrote: »

Putting Bowe at 14 would also get the best out of him, he's a strong guy, and is a good runner.

I'm not saying he's world class, but right now we don't have world class wingers and he's got potential to be an exceptional player for us with his ability to play Wing/Centre/Full back.

Selective quoting, but I don't care.

For the record, He was as good with Ulster as he is with Ospreys - just playing for a more attack minded team, credit where it's due.

2040

zAbbo wrote: »

For the record, He was as good with Ulster as he is with Ospreys - just playing for a more attack minded team, credit where it's due.

haha! 200 laps of the pitch for tommy come next ospreys training session.

thomond2006

a_bomb wrote: »

I agree that he deserves to be in the team at the moment but he simply isnt good enough!!!! He doesnt offer anything in attack-he is a standard provincial player! You will not win 6Nations, Granslams or World cups with average players like him on the national team(even on the squad)

Quoted for comedy value. :D:D

anonymous_joe

The irony is Bowe really does look slow.

He's got quite a loping run, it really doesn't look that fast.

Sherifu

Sherifu wrote: »

He does get more stick than he deserves.

Quoted for myself.

I could make fun of Chucky here too but i'm above that :pac:

stephen_n

Think leaving Shane Williams for dead should remove any questions about his pace in attack. Funnily enough before the start of this 6 nations I was more worried about his defence since we don't really get the ball to our wingers that much but he has definitely improved that area of his game immeasurably in the last year as his try saving tackle against the Scots demonstrated.

The_Kew_Tour

Bowe was simply class in 6 nations

NickNolte

Indeed. He had a great 6 Nations. He's a real gent as well so it's good to see him enjoy good form... and the Grand Slam that came with it! Not so sure about the singing though.

Digifriendly

When he was at Ulster we used to sing from the terraces 'Tommy Bowe you're indestructible!' and now even though he is with Ospreys we still see him as one of us. Hope he comes back in not too distant future.

Catmologen

Definitely Ireland's most improved player, if it was up to me I'd start him is SA, his height adds a new dimension to our attack. He was shocking for the Ospreys today though.