Ethnic left-overs

ejmaztec

I think that after the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the carving up of Germany's territory after WW1, the ethnic Germans and Hungarians remaining in these areas got a raw deal. They were victimised by nationalists in Poland, Czechoslovakia and most of the other newly independent states emerging after WW1. My view is that they were pretty much regarded as second-class citizens. I think that's why they saw Hitler as their saviour.

When Hitler's scheme went pear-shaped, the ethnic Germans in these areas got it in the neck again. I've visited Bohemia on several occasions, never failing to be amazed at the situation there. For centuries, German-speaking peoples were the majority in Western Bohemia. When WW2 ended, and before the communists took over, the entire population was thrown out and sent to Austria and Germany. It seems that any ethnic Hungarians got turfed out as well. They had to leave their farms, houses and businesses intact and fully equipped and furnished. If they attempted to sabotage anything, thery were punished. Most of them spent time in prison-camps prior their departure and the total number of deaths, rapes, violent assaults etc etc is disputed on both sides.

People from all over Czechoslovakia were moved into the vacated premises. They obviously didn't fill all of the vacated buildings as you can see a lot of derelict structures all over the place. The only evidence that German-speakers lived there are the old WW1 war memorials, listing mostly German names.

There doesn't seem to be much evidence of hatred between the peoples along the Czech/German border, despite what happened 60 years ago. There is a group in Germany (Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft) representing the evicted and they want to be compensated for their losses. They had a meeting in Prague, not so long ago, to the sound of some nationalist mini-riot outside the building.

http://sudetengermans.freeyellow.com/

This is their site and, not being there at the time, can't tell whether any of it has been hyped up. However, it happened. Does anyone think that they deserved what they got?

Red Hand

Further to that, there was a huge chunk of Poland, Lithuania and that tiny Russian scrap of land in the Baltic, where the Germans had to move out of after WW2. It was East Prussia back then. Plus, alot of land east of the Oder Neisse (is that correct?) rivers was also German, but became Polish after the war. Again, as many as 2 million had to leave those areas at the end of WW2.

Did they deserve it? Nobody deserves being tossed out of their homes and/or raped and murdered. But there wasn't much to stop it happening back then. The focus was on winning the war from the Allied side. I mean, nobody deserves being carpet bombed either, but it was still carried out, on both sides.

ejmaztec

The Czech expulsions happened after the end of WW2. They're the result of the Benes Decree. He was the leader of the Czechoslovak government in exile in England, moving back to Prague after the war. Some of the more affluent Austro-German ex land-owners are still trying to get their stately homes back. They were apparently grabbed on the grounds that the owners collaborated with the nazis. There's a guy at the moment, a member of the Collorado-Mansfeld family, who is trying to claim back a number of high-profile buildings in the Czech Republic. The government says "Your old man was a nazi, you can't have 'em back!". His argument is that his father probably was a nazi, but his father had transferred ownership to himself, who at the time was 12, so couldn't have been a nazi." The Czech courts will be busy for decades.

Poland was given a huge chunk of ex-German territory after WW1 and another huge chunk after WW2. Then again, a chunk of Poland was handed over to the Ukraine after WW2 thanks to the Soviets.

And now, after the fall of communism, as you say, there's a speck of Russia, Kaliningrad, that used to be Konigsberg. Again, all of the Germans were tipped out to be replaced by Russians. It was handy base for their Baltic fleet.

I know that one or two Poles frequent these boards and am interested in their view. Is it Wroclaw or Breslau? Is it Polish coal or German coal from Silesia?

tomster

"The city of Wrocław originated as a stronghold situated at a long-existing trading route to Greater Moravia and Bohemia. The city was first recorded in the 10th century as Vratislavia, possibly derived from the name of the Bohemian duke Vratislav I who died in 921. The history of the city begins at the end of the 10th century under the Polish Piast dynasty. At that time the city bears the name of Vratislavia and is limited to district of Ostrów Tumski (the Cathedral Island)."

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wroc%C5%82aw

Germans and Russian always used to claim our lands and property. No matter how: by force or by changing history, fading facts... I will never trust them.

ejmaztec

tomster wrote: »

"The city of Wrocław originated as a stronghold situated at a long-existing trading route to Greater Moravia and Bohemia. The city was first recorded in the 10th century as Vratislavia, possibly derived from the name of the Bohemian duke Vratislav I who died in 921. The history of the city begins at the end of the 10th century under the Polish Piast dynasty. At that time the city bears the name of Vratislavia and is limited to district of Ostrów Tumski (the Cathedral Island)."

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wroc%C5%82aw

Germans and Russian always used to claim our lands and property. No matter how: by force or by changing history, fading facts... I will never trust them.

I'm glad it's back in the right hands then, after such a long absence:D

But it's a great shame that a sizeable number of people, whether German, or not, got kicked out in reclaiming territory after several centuries. If it was inhabited by Poles, in the same way that Ireland was mostly inhabited by Irish, then I can see why it should have been returned to Poland. The fact that the post WW2 population was in the majority, German, and had been for centuries, sheds a different and more inhumane light on it. In the same vein, the Russians weren't exactly humane when the Poles were kicked out of Polish territory that was given to the Ukraine. A dirty business all round.

I also appreciate that the modern Germans have told the Polish government that it has no territorial claims on any of the land taken after WW2.

tomster

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'm glad it's back in the right hands then, after such a long absence:D

Why not? I'm getting a bit tired of all these "immigration" threads...

ejmaztec wrote: »

But it's a great shame that a sizeable number of people, whether German, or not, got kicked out in reclaiming territory after several centuries.

It is shame indeed. Instead of being kicked out the Germans should be treated the way they treated us: gas, shot in the head, electrecuted and a few left for medical experiments. That'd be absolutely fair I guess!

As a side note, as you mentioned: not the Poles kicked them out, but Russians and Americans. Not the Poles have given the huge parts of best soil and old lands of our fathers to Ukraine and Lithuania (recently 2 USSR Republics or simply part of Russian Empire) but Russians and Americans. See Yalta Conference here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference .
We were never such a shameless bastards as Germans are to claim them back or moan about it. **** happens.

ejmaztec wrote: »

If it was inhabited by Poles, in the same way that Ireland was mostly inhabited by Irish, then I can see why it should have been returned to Poland. The fact that the post WW2 population was in the majority, German, and had been for centuries, sheds a different and more inhumane light on it.

I'm actually surprised that you, proud Irish, free after 800 years of English hegemony on YOUR lands, can say such things... The fact that they lived there just means that they robbed these lands centuries ago and claimed ownership. Unfortunately - we do not forget...

ejmaztec wrote: »

In the same vein, the Russians weren't exactly humane when the Poles were kicked out of Polish territory that was given to the Ukraine. A dirty business all round.

As per my post above.

ejmaztec wrote: »

I also appreciate that the modern Germans have told the Polish government that it has no territorial claims on any of the land taken after WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_Expellees

Oficialy the German government have no other choice than say "We have no claims" (a wolf turns into a sheep - Christ, it drives me mad when I have to think that those psychopats and murderers may have ANY CLAIMS after the all they did to milions of men, women and innocent children in the name of the LAND and THEIR PRIDE). They won't make any claims directly, but through the organisations like the one above - backed and supported (off the record of course) by the government. In order to Polish request to delegalise them, the German government refused due to the fact, that "Federation of Expellees" is not part of the government and the government don't support the claims they make. Also that they are "completely harmless" and "should not be treated seriously".

The Wheel of History goes on...

Victor

Germany and Russia controleld Poland for a long time. There were swings and roundabouts, give and take.

The current play by certain Germans (mostly) is about money, not rights.

Pride Fighter

The Germans were scattered all over Europe after their states were decimated in the religous wars that wrecked Germany in the 16th and 17th centuries. These refugees/settlers spread eastward across the continent. Eventually they were incorporated into friendly states when the Habsburgs and Prussians expanded eastward. So if the French/Swedes/Poles/Habsburgs and every other power in Europe didnt use Germany as a battleground they would have never left.
Anyway I know that the Hungarians got a pretty **** deal. There is still over 4 million of them in Romania and the live on the border, those lands should be returned IMO.

Victor

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Anyway I know that the Hungarians got a pretty **** deal. There is still over 4 million of them in Romania and the live on the border, those lands should be returned IMO.

If the Hungarians didn't get involved in a series of wars, people would have been much more willing to solve such problems.

there still are some ethnic Germans living in Poland, and they have a political party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Minority_(political_party)

There was also enthic Germans living in Hungary, I remember meeting some, in a small town, visiting their family graves, when on a cycling trip.

ojewriej

ejmaztec wrote: »

I know that one or two Poles frequent these boards and am interested in their view. Is it Wroclaw or Breslau? Is it Polish coal or German coal from Silesia?

Be careful what you wish for...

It's a good question, and quite close to my heart, as I am from the parts of Poland which were German before the war.

There is few things you have to remember here:

1. I think it's wrong to look at this issue as just a 20th century one. The disputed areas had a mixture of Polish, German and Czech inhabitants over the last 1000 years, every now and then one of the nations getting an upper hand.

2. The concept of Nationalism wasn't that important up until the 19th century really, before that the loyalties were much more local. To this day there is plenty of people living in Upper Silesia, who regard themselves as Silesians, not Polish or Germans. Their language is a mixture of Polish and German too. As for Germany - it wasn't one country until the end of 19th century, before that it was more of a coalition of German nations. So it's not as simple us Poles vs. Germans really.

3. I'm not sure how much you know about the partitions of Poland. Basically, at the end of 18th century, our land was taken from us by Prussia, Austria and Russia. See the map here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png

There was no such a country us Poland (with the short exception of Kingdom of Poland given to us by Napoleon) for 126 years, until the WWI ended. During this period, parts of Poland anexed by Prussia and Austria were under very intense germanisation. Polish language and culture was basicaly outlawed. Because of that, a lot of people declared German at the end of WWII, were in fact of Polish/Slav descent, particularly Silesians and Kashubs. So claiming that all areas given to Poland were populated by germans is not entirely true.

4. After the war, we lost much more land than we gained. Another map for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Curzon_line_en.svg

Remember, every polish person who moved to the "Regained Lands" as they were called, was kicked out from somewhere else.

5. It was Germans who started the war. When you do that, you might loose, and then you have to deal with the consequences. Even if you put the atrocities aside because it was Nazis who committed them, ordinary Germans were quite happy to use slave labour sent to Germany from occupied territories. Slaves worked on the farms and factories all over Germany. They weren't generally treated that badly, but the fact remains that they were there against their will, kidnapped from Poland, Russia and other countries

6. As for harshness of the expelling process itself. It's true, it was brutal at times, but firstly, remember that it happened after 6 years of extremely brutal German occupation, and secondly same thing were happening to the Poles being moved to the west from our eastern parts.

So having all this in mind:

I don't think Germans got a particularly raw deal. This land changed hands loads of times, first half of the 20th century was just another turn of the wheel. I know that being Polish I'm biased, but I will still say what we got was much worse. I mean, we were invaded, occupied for 6 years - during this time a quarter of the civilian population was killed -, and then our land was robbed (I know we got land in exchange, but we didn't really asked for it, in fact our exiled government in London tried everything to stop it, but it was decided by the Big three, and we had to deal with it) and then left on Soviet mercy for 50 years. Sorry to sound so dramatic, but this is the truth. Quite simplified I admit, but still the truth.

So in short: It's Wroclaw, and it's polish coal.

@tomster - no need to get so defensive. OP asked a very legitimate question. Remember that being Polish, we know the Polish history better, but we are also biased. it's good to get outsider's point of view, and to be able to give our side of the story to people who are actually interested.

Pride Fighter

Deleted User wrote: »

there still are some ethnic Germans living in Poland, and they have a political party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Minority_(political_party)

There was also enthic Germans living in Hungary, I remember meeting some, in a small town, visiting their family graves, when on a cycling trip.

There is also ethnic Germans as far East as Asia, Kazakhstan where they make up 5% of the population.

Pride Fighter

ojewriej wrote: »

I don't think Germans got a particularly raw deal. This land changed hands loads of times, first half of the 20th century was just another turn of the wheel. I know that being Polish I'm biased, but I will still say what we got was much worse. I mean, we were invaded, occupied for 6 years - during this time a quarter of the civilian population was killed -, and then our land was robbed (I know we got land in exchange, but we didn't really asked for it, in fact our exiled government in London tried everything to stop it, but it was decided by the Big three, and we had to deal with it) and then left on Soviet mercy for 50 years. Sorry to sound so dramatic, but this is the truth. Quite simplified I admit, but still the truth.

@togster - no need to get that defensive. OP asked a very legitimate question. Remember that being Polish, we know the Polish history better, but we are also biased. it's good to get outsider's point of view, and to be able to give our side of the story to people who are actually interested.

The Soviets stole all of your Eastern lands didnt they. Before the war started Germany and USSR split your country down the middle at Brest-Litovsk. That city is now in Belorussia. I mean you won that land fair and square by kicking Russian ass in the battle of Komarow. Poland shrunk in size after WW2, which a lot of people dont know.

ojewriej

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Soviets stole all of your Eastern lands didnt they.

They sure did. It could be worse though - we could have been a Soviet Republic.

But to be honest, I blame UK for that more than Soviets. I mean, Soviets were Soviets, they did what they did. But English were supposed to be our allies, but they let this and a lot of other things happen, just to keep Stalin quiet.

But that's a different story.

tomster

ojewriej wrote: »

@tomster - no need to get so defensive. OP asked a very legitimate question. Remember that being Polish, we know the Polish history better, but we are also biased. it's good to get outsider's point of view, and to be able to give our side of the story to people who are actually interested.

ojewriej, do me a favour please: stop wrecking my head doing remarks to almost every post I posted on Boards sticking your "advices" to any thread I participate in. You're not my mentor and please don't pretend so.

No offence man, but I had to get it of my chest - at some stage it started pissing me off.

End of topic.

ojewriej

tomster wrote: »

ojewriej, do me a favour please: stop wrecking my head doing remarks to almost every post I posted on Boards sticking your "advices" to any thread I participate in. You're not my mentor and please don't pretend so.

No offence man, but I had to get it of my chest - at some stage it started pissing me off.

End of topic.

To be honest i don't remember talking to you before, but fair enough, I'll ignore you from now on. I don't think it will be that hard.

tomster

Thank you ojewriej. All I asked was to stop being "protective" playing a role of an "older brother/mentor" patting me back and giving "advices" I am sick of. I will not quote the other remarks as this is a normal thread, not a Polish-forum-like sihthole. So please let it be the last post regarding our personal issues.

Pride Fighter

tomster wrote: »

"The city of Wrocław originated as a stronghold situated at a long-existing trading route to Greater Moravia and Bohemia. The city was first recorded in the 10th century as Vratislavia, possibly derived from the name of the Bohemian duke Vratislav I who died in 921. The history of the city begins at the end of the 10th century under the Polish Piast dynasty. At that time the city bears the name of Vratislavia and is limited to district of Ostrów Tumski (the Cathedral Island)."

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wroc%C5%82aw

Germans and Russian always used to claim our lands and property. No matter how: by force or by changing history, fading facts... I will never trust them.

What about the Germanic tribes that lived in that area 1700 years beforehand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Germanic_tribes_%28750BC-1AD%29.png

tomster

Good question though!

I'd say the city of Wrocław has been built and developed mainly by Poles (obviously under infulence of different cultures/nations) on Polish (at that time) lands and that's why IMO should belong to Poland and can be called Polish. I might be wrong.

As per the map: who lived on these lands before German tribes moved from Scandinavia (750BC) according to an oldest records on the map? - (RED_colour) Settlements before 750BC. Their further expansion - (ORANGE_colour) New settlements until 500BC - shows their arrival to the lands currently known as Polish (incuding Wroclaw) until 500BC... I really doubt that they found the place empty. So the new question rises: who lived there? If they weren't Germans, who were they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Polish_history

ejmaztec

ojewriej wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for...

It's a good question, and quite close to my heart, as I am from the parts of Poland which were German before the war.

There is few things you have to remember here:

1. I think it's wrong to look at this issue as just a 20th century one. The disputed areas had a mixture of Polish, German and Czech inhabitants over the last 1000 years, every now and then one of the nations getting an upper hand.

2. The concept of Nationalism wasn't that important up until the 19th century really, before that the loyalties were much more local. To this day there is plenty of people living in Upper Silesia, who regard themselves as Silesians, not Polish or Germans. Their language is a mixture of Polish and German too. As for Germany - it wasn't one country until the end of 19th century, before that it was more of a coalition of German nations. So it's not as simple us Poles vs. Germans really.

3. I'm not sure how much you know about the partitions of Poland. Basically, at the end of 18th century, our land was taken from us by Prussia, Austria and Russia. See the map here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png

There was no such a country us Poland (with the short exception of Kingdom of Poland given to us by Napoleon) for 126 years, until the WWI ended. During this period, parts of Poland anexed by Prussia and Austria were under very intense germanisation. Polish language and culture was basicaly outlawed. Because of that, a lot of people declared German at the end of WWII, were in fact of Polish/Slav descent, particularly Silesians and Kashubs. So claiming that all areas given to Poland were populated by germans is not entirely true.

4. After the war, we lost much more land than we gained. Another map for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Curzon_line_en.svg

Remember, every polish person who moved to the "Regained Lands" as they were called, was kicked out from somewhere else.

5. It was Germans who started the war. When you do that, you might loose, and then you have to deal with the consequences. Even if you put the atrocities aside because it was Nazis who committed them, ordinary Germans were quite happy to use slave labour sent to Germany from occupied territories. Slaves worked on the farms and factories all over Germany. They weren't generally treated that badly, but the fact remains that they were there against their will, kidnapped from Poland, Russia and other countries

6. As for harshness of the expelling process itself. It's true, it was brutal at times, but firstly, remember that it happened after 6 years of extremely brutal German occupation, and secondly same thing were happening to the Poles being moved to the west from our eastern parts.

So having all this in mind:

I don't think Germans got a particularly raw deal. This land changed hands loads of times, first half of the 20th century was just another turn of the wheel. I know that being Polish I'm biased, but I will still say what we got was much worse. I mean, we were invaded, occupied for 6 years - during this time a quarter of the civilian population was killed -, and then our land was robbed (I know we got land in exchange, but we didn't really asked for it, in fact our exiled government in London tried everything to stop it, but it was decided by the Big three, and we had to deal with it) and then left on Soviet mercy for 50 years. Sorry to sound so dramatic, but this is the truth. Quite simplified I admit, but still the truth.

So in short: It's Wroclaw, and it's polish coal.

@tomster - no need to get so defensive. OP asked a very legitimate question. Remember that being Polish, we know the Polish history better, but we are also biased. it's good to get outsider's point of view, and to be able to give our side of the story to people who are actually interested.

Thanks for the info, very enlightening.

I’ve always been intrigued by the countries that were locked away for 40 odd years. I’m a bit of an ancient relic myself, having been schooled with quite a few children whose parents left these countries, either before, or after the communists took over. In the UK, by far the highest proportion of my old friends had Polish parents. The parents of the rest of them came from all over the central and eastern Europe, the Baltic states, etc etc. On the whole, the “refugees” hated the Russians with a vengeance, not having the same anger towards the Germans. The Polish mother of one of my pals was particularly pis5ed off with the Russians as she and God knows how many others were dragged off to Siberia. She managed to survive and headed off to England, where she spent the rest of her life with her Polish husband.

In my twisted way of thinking, I can see by Tomster’s reaction to my question, that Germans are higher on his hate list than the Russians. Correct me if you think that I am wrong in the following assumption – and feel free to tell me if I’m talking rubbish.:)

During the communist era, throughout the Iron-Curtain countries, the point was always made that the Russians were every communist’s best friend. At the same time throughout the communist education system, the Germans were grouped with the capitalist, imperialist worker-trampling west. Of course, as East Germany was communist, those Germans were the only OK ones. The end result of Soviet “history lessons” being that some of what was taught stayed in the minds of the students and has been hard to shift despite the fall of communism.

On the face of it, from my devious viewpoint, it seems that the Poles who never had to go through any communist indoctrination, hate the Russians a lot more than they do the Germans, whereas those under the Soviet thumb, hate the Germans more.

tomster

ejmaztec wrote: »

In my twisted way of thinking, I can see by Tomster’s reaction to my question, that Germans are higher on his hate list than the Russians. Correct me if you think that I am wrong in the following assumption – and feel free to tell me if I’m talking rubbish.:)

Ehh It's not like that Sometimes emotions take control especially in this particular case. But I go nuts when after all they have done they dare to claim something! Well, OK, happened, I can forgive - but shameless claimes? Even if it was about a bunch of sticks from Polish forest I'd get mad. Same phoney friends - Russians. But I am definetely not a type of person that shaves the head and kicks the bolix of every met German/Russian. Forgive, but never forget.

ojewriej

ejmaztec wrote: »

On the face of it, from my devious viewpoint, it seems that the Poles who never had to go through any communist indoctrination, hate the Russians a lot more than they do the Germans, whereas those under the Soviet thumb, hate the Germans more.

That's exactly how it is. I only started fully comprehend what Soviets did to us (and to other nations) when I came here in 2001 and started reading in English. Before that, it was the Germans who were all bad. It's nothing surprising though, as indoctrination started very early - in my primary school I was even a member of the a society for Soviet/Polish Friendship - we all were. A lot of sunday morning tv series aimed at kids were about the war as well, sending the messago how evil germans invaded us, and we were only saved by good russians.

On the other hand people who didn't come back to Poland after the war, or emigrated later, usually did so because of communists, that's why they hatred is directed towards them.

ejmaztec

ojewriej wrote: »

That's exactly how it is. I only started fully comprehend what Soviets did to us (and to other nations) when I came here in 2001 and started reading in English. Before that, it was the Germans who were all bad. It's nothing surprising though, as indoctrination started very early - in my primary school I was even a member of the a society for Soviet/Polish Friendship - we all were. A lot of sunday morning tv series aimed at kids were about the war as well, sending the messago how evil germans invaded us, and we were only saved by good russians.

On the other hand people who didn't come back to Poland after the war, or emigrated later, usually did so because of communists, that's why they hatred is directed towards them.

Damn Russians!

Well at least Poland is going to get some land back from the Czechs, albeit 370 hectares. This is to compensate for what the Soviets ordered back in the 1950s.

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/104412

ojewriej

ejmaztec wrote: »

Damn Russians!

Yah, damn them and their sneaky ways.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Well at least Poland is going to get some land back from the Czechs, albeit 370 hectares. This is to compensate for what the Soviets ordered back in the 1950s.

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/104412

My grandad was originaly from the Tesin area mentioned in this article. He was in a czech orphanage and his sister was in another one. After the conflict was resolved, my grandad ended up on the Polish side and was brought up as a Pole. His sister stayed on the czech side, and was brought up as a Czech. She still leaves there with her family. Tesin is split in half now, and her grandaughter who lives in on the Czech side, goes to school on the polish side, quite common practice over there.

Just another example how complicated these things can be.

Pride Fighter

tomster wrote: »

As per the map: who lived on these lands before German tribes moved from Scandinavia (750BC) according to an oldest records on the map? - (RED_colour) Settlements before 750BC. Their further expansion - (ORANGE_colour) New settlements until 500BC - shows their arrival to the lands currently known as Polish (incuding Wroclaw) until 500BC... I really doubt that they found the place empty. So the new question rises: who lived there? If they weren't Germans, who were they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Polish_history

The people who the Germans displaced in the map I mentioned were in fact Celts who then settled in Spain, France and Britain. I just put it up as IMO migration is one of the most natural things a human can do. Poles came to Europe during the migration Period 3rd-7th Century. Sure arent we all from Africa originally?

Zebra3

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Soviets stole all of your Eastern lands didnt they. Before the war started Germany and USSR split your country down the middle at Brest-Litovsk. That city is now in Belorussia. I mean you won that land fair and square by kicking Russian ass in the battle of Komarow. Poland shrunk in size after WW2, which a lot of people dont know.

Wasn't Brest-Litovsk the treaty that took Russia/USSR out of WWI?

It was the Non-aggression Pact between Ribbentrop and Molotov (?) that partioned Poland in 1939.

Pride Fighter

Zebra3 wrote: »

Wasn't Brest-Litovsk the treaty that took Russia/USSR out of WWI?

It was the Non-aggression Pact between Ribbentrop and Molotov (?) that partioned Poland in 1939.

Yeah, it saw a lot of action didnt it.

tomster

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The people who the Germans displaced in the map I mentioned were in fact Celts who then settled in Spain, France and Britain. I just put it up as IMO migration is one of the most natural things a human can do. Poles came to Europe during the migration Period 3rd-7th Century. Sure arent we all from Africa originally?

We are from Africa indeed. Thats actually quite funny though when you mention it in any "racist" thread.

Now, a few things I've found:

Polish lands

5500 BC
Arrival of the first farmers
740 BC
Biskupin fortified settlement built
450-500 AD
First Slavic settlements



Biskupin is an archaeological site and a life-size model of an Iron Age fortified settlement in north-central Poland (Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship). It belongs to the Biskupin group of the Lusatian culture. The excavation and the reconstruction of the prehistoric settlement has played an important part in Polish historical consciousness.

Lausitz-type' burials were first described by the German pathologist and archaeologist Rudolf Virchow (1821-1902). The name refers to the Lusatia (Lausitz) area in eastern Germany (Brandenburg and Saxony) and Poland. Virchow identified the pottery as 'pre-Germanic' but refused to speculate on the ethnic identity of their makers.

Numerous Czech (Píč, Niederle, Červinka) and Polish (Majewski, Kostrzewski, Kozłowski) authors believed the Lusatians to be Proto-Slavs, while the German archaeologist A. Götze saw them as Thracian, and Gustaf Kossinna first as Karpo-Dacian, a tribe mentioned by Zosimus and then as Illyrian.

Victor

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is also ethnic Germans as far East as Asia, Kazakhstan where they make up 5% of the population.

I was aware of this, but have not studied it. I presumed they were modern settlers. Indeed nearly half of Kazakhstan is Russian.

Pgibson

As an astronomer I see this entire planet as a speck of dust in the universe.

After all that has happened the primitive tribalism of the human race is still alive and well.

German ..Pole...Russian.

Who cares in this age of Einstein and the Hubble Space Telescope and the Large Hadron Collider.

Humans are still killing each other like the primitive mental-microbes that most of them really are.

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brianthebard

How...inciteful. sometimes people who claim to see the bigger picture aren't very good at handling details.

foxhoundone

just for information guy,s where i live knocknagoney{the hill of warran,s} during ww2 alot of german pow,s were held on this estate during the war, alot of them deciding there,s no point going back to there home land {particion) chosed to stay an settle in belfast.
being plenty of work at harland/wolfe,s shipyard

Pgibson

A "Pale Blue Dot"peeking out between the rings of Saturn,imaged from the Cassini spacecraft:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060927.html

This is what the astronomer Carl Sagan said about it:

"Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. It's been said that astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

(Sagan puts "ethnicity", and all the murderous tribal rubbish it stands for, in it's proper place.)

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Judgement Day

When I saw this thread I thought I was the one being talked about! Being of Cromwellian extraction we were left behind after the 1922 evacuation! I was born in London (by chance) but returned to Ireland in 1959 at the age of three months. Despite having grown up on the wrong side of an artificial border (ie.the Republic) I have remained a Loyalist. Not in the crude sectarian UDA/UVF/Orange type but someone who can't be accepted as Irish here or British in Britain but as someone whose heart beats faster when Jonny Wilkinson steps up to knock over another penalty. Somebody who felt that the Falklands War was Britain's finest hour since WWll. Somebody who changed his passport to a British one after Omagh. I am a throwback - even my co-religionists regard me as eccentric and I have never met anybody who marches to the same tune - and I don't mean 'The Sash'!

Any other refugees out there?? :):):)

ejmaztec

Judgement Day wrote: »

When I saw this thread I thought I was the one being talked about! Being of Cromwellian extraction we were left behind after the 1922 evacuation! I was born in London (by chance) but returned to Ireland in 1959 at the age of three months. Despite having grown up on the wrong side of an artificial border (ie.the Republic) I have remained a Loyalist. Not in the crude sectarian UDA/UVF/Orange type but someone who can't be accepted as Irish here or British in Britain but as someone whose heart beats faster when Jonny Wilkinson steps up to knock over another penalty. Somebody who felt that the Falklands War was Britain's finest hour since WWll. Somebody who changed his passport to a British one after Omagh. I am a throwback - even my co-religionists regard me as eccentric and I have never met anybody who marches to the same tune - and I don't mean 'The Sash'!

Any other refugees out there?? :):):)

Us plastic paddys are refugees as well. Religion or allegiances don't really have much to do with our status. When I lived in England, I was an Irish bastard, even though I was born and brought up there. Here, with my English accent, I'm now an English bastard. One of the natives refers to me as a "Cockney C***", even though I was born over a 100 miles from London.

Given the choice of two passports, I chose a British one, for the simple reason that it worked out cheaper. Where money is concerned, nationality means nothing to me.

Given your status, your family should be glad that the Irish government in 1922, didn't do a "Sudeten" on the people who didn't fit the De Valera profile. You might have preferred this, I don't know. Had Britain lost WW1, they would not have been able to prevent a mass eviction, were the Irish authorities to decide at the time to carry out such an action.

As it turned out, we're just one big happy family, engaged in fun-packed fun 24/7. :pac:

Judgement Day

Just had a confused few minutes there as I cheered on Ireland's boxing captain Kenny Egan to knock the c..p out of the Englishman. Where are my pills....:):):):)

fly_agaric

Pgibson wrote: »

German ..Pole...Russian.

Who cares in this age of Einstein and the Hubble Space Telescope and the Large Hadron Collider.

Humans are still killing each other like the primitive mental-microbes that most of them really are.

Be careful. You just called the majority of humans mental microbes (...because of their addiction to "tribalism"/nationalism?).
That smacks of "cockroaches", "rats" & "dogs" etc. - the dehumanising terms beloved of fundamentalists.
It suggests even you (as a human) could be vulnerable to the sort of thinking you are criticising.;)

Nationalist rivalry has been a driver of a alot of the technological progress which has made endeavours like the HST & the Cassini-Huygens mission possible so I suppose it can do some good if it doesn't end up killing us.

Pride Fighter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Just had a confused few minutes there as I cheered on Ireland's boxing captain Kenny Egan to knock the c..p out of the Englishman. Where are my pills....:):):):)

I know someone like you who supports Glasgow Celtic LOL.

gaf1983

Very interesting thread. The whole "ethnic left-over" concept is quite fascinating I think, yet its consequences can be very negative for the ethnic groups left-over or those they come into contact.

When the Berlin Wall came down, I understand that many ethnic Germans living to the east of the former Iron Curtain, some from as far afield as Kazakhstan, were given the right to live and work in Germany and of course apply for German citizenship. You'd wonder how second or third generation descendants of Turkish "guest workers" felt about this situation - here were these people, some of whose ancestors left Germany many many years ago being granted citizenship, while they (the Turks) may have lived in Germany their whole lives yet weren't entitled to this.

Before Kuwait and other countries of the Arabian/Persian Gulf got independence, after the establishment of Israel, many Palestinians emigrated to the Gulf statelets. When Kuwait and the other Gulf countries gained independence from the 1960s onwards, they generally awarded citizenship rights along tribal lines. Many of the Palestinian diaspora were allowed to remain on in the countries, however they were without any citizenship rights whatsoever. In Kuwait it seems like they were treated very much as second-class to the Kuwaiti citizens, so when Saddam Hussein was invaded and annexed by Iraq in 1990, it's no surprise that these Palestinian non-citizens supported the Iraqis against the Kuwaiti regime.

Recently I heard that there is a part of Sardinia where Catalan is spoken - I'd love to know more about how this came about.

Pgibson

gaf1983 wrote: »

When the Berlin Wall came down, I understand that many ethnic Germans living to the east of the former Iron Curtain, some from as far afield as Kazakhstan, were given the right to live and work in Germany and of course apply for German citizenship. .

Most of them were German citizens rejoining their families.

The families had fled,or were thrown out of, Eastern Europe during and after WW2.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II
.

donaghs

gaf1983 wrote: »

Recently I heard that there is a part of Sardinia where Catalan is spoken - I'd love to know more about how this came about.

Not so strange. The language/culture of Languedoc or L'Occitan was widespread across the southwestern Med in previous centuries. Catalan and Provencal are almost the same language - separated by time, geography and lack of central government support.

The (French) Corsicans have their own language which has elements of Italian in it.