Acoustic Mud

TelePaul

I learnt an important lesson today. Don't let someone fingerpick if they havn't got nails. It just sounds like ass and balls. Especially on a big ol' dreadnought.
Maybe you'll get away with it on a triple '0 or parlour size. Maybe not.

I've cut a couple of dbs at 80hz, 250hz and boosted a couple at 3000hz and 5000hz. But it still aint pretty. There's an awful lot of string noise in there too. I've taken for granted the plectrum and the texture, bite and amplification it gives an acoustic guitar.

I suppose the quest for perfect acoustic tone is hampered by the widely varying practices of guitarists and their gear. Today's guitarist had a nice Art and Luthrie acoustic but it was made from cedar; definetely warm, and alot closer than mahogany than spruce. A sickly sweet Taylor may have saved the day, those things stand right out in a mix. He also played very quietly - nails give volume - which meant upping the pre-amp gain which I'm guessing raised the mic's noise floor and risked reflections from my largely untreated room. It's a vicious circle!

Has anyone else had trouble accomodating to someone elses playing style?

fitz

Sounds like it could be poor technique or dull strings....or just a poor quality guitar.
Nails shouldn't be required to get a good tone when fingerpicking.

squibs

I'm wondering if pointing the mic more neckward might have helped? You would of course get more fret squeak, but it would brighten the sound.

My troublesome acoustic axeman gets into the swing of it when recording. He sways rhythmically, and not just backwards and forwards either - it's more eliptical in nature. So I get tonality changes as well as volume swells.

All I can do is slap a compressor on him and claim to end listeners that I'm doing clever things with an LFO to create his signature sound

TelePaul

fitz wrote: »

Sounds like it could be poor technique or dull strings....or just a poor quality guitar.
Nails shouldn't be required to get a good tone when fingerpicking.

Speaking as a guitarist, I kinda consider nails essential. Finger pads are so dull.

TelePaul

squibs wrote: »

I'm wondering if pointing the mic more neckward might have helped? You would of course get more fret squeak, but it would brighten the sound.

My troublesome acoustic axeman gets into the swing of it when recording. He sways rhythmically, and not just backwards and forwards either - it's more eliptical in nature. So I get tonality changes as well as volume swells.

All I can do is slap a compressor on him and claim to end listeners that I'm doing clever things with an LFO to create his signature sound

I've heard of other people in a similar scenario setting up dummy mics around a person - not connecting them to anything but just pinning the guitarist in place.

fitz

TelePaul wrote: »

Speaking as a guitarist, I kinda consider nails essential. Finger pads are so dull.

Speaking as a guitarist, I disagree.:p
It's always going to be quieter, but that's not to say it sounds bad.
If you're having problems with it sounding pants, it probably has more to do with his technique, the guitar, the strings, the mic, the preamp and the room than the fact that he didn't have nails to make it loud enough to not cause these things to be as much of an issue.

TelePaul

fitz wrote: »

Speaking as a guitarist, I disagree.:p
It's always going to be quieter, but that's not to say it sounds bad.
If you're having problems with it sounding pants, it probably has more to do with his technique, the guitar, the strings, the mic, the preamp and the room than the fact that he didn't have nails to make it loud enough to not cause these things to be as much of an issue.

His technique maybe...listening to the track you can tell what's causing the unpleasantness. It's not just a volume issue, it's pretty ill-defined sound. I'd pick a classical with fingers, but on a dreadnought, no way.

fitz

Do you think every great sounding picked guitar part was recorded with the player using their nails? I would have said most pickers I've seen play with fingers, perhaps with a grown thumbnail.

If it's an ill-defined sound, I'd put money on it being his playing, strings or the guitar itself. Here's the key question: do you reckon a Taylor 9 series or a Lowden played by this guy in the same circumstances and manner would sound ill-defined? Somehow, I doubt it.

Had he put new strings on for the session? Any idea what gauge he was using?

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

Don't let someone fingerpick if they havn't got nails. It just sounds like ass and balls.

Having worked with many acoustic players over the years I've not found this to be the case.

Picks and Fingernails do make a very upfront sound, fingers and no picks make a different, but equally musical, sound- taking it you have a good player with a good instrument.

A bit o string noise never hurt no one! - in fact, the absence of it can be a bit unnatural , similar to a vocal without breaths.

studiorat

New strings New Strings New Strings.

TelePaul

fitz wrote: »

do you reckon a Taylor 9 series or a Lowden played by this guy in the same circumstances and manner would sound ill-defined? Somehow, I doubt it.

Massive generalisation there - what woods are we talking about? Like I said, I was working with cedar here. Guitar would be pretty low on my troubleshooting list, you were probably closer with your technique assertion.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Picks and Fingernails do make a very upfront sound, fingers and no picks make a different, but equally musical, sound- taking it you have a good player with a good instrument.

A bit o string noise never hurt no one! - in fact, the absence of it can be a bit unnatural , similar to a vocal without breaths.

I think the sound is waaay too boxy. You know the way electrics sound in a jazz piece with zero top-end? I've cut at 80 and 250hz and boosted at 3000 and 5000hz but it's so dark.

eoin5

What kind of strings was the guitarist using?

fitz

Cedar is actually the preferred top-wood for a huge amount of fingerpickers. It projects more.

I've a Lowden f10c, and I've played/heard several Taylors and other high end acoustics. My Lowden is cedar topped, with mahogany back and sides, it's massively loud and it's not even a jumbo. With a fresh set of strings, a guitar of that quality will never give you a dull tone unless it's due to seriously shoddy technique. Never. It's not a generalisation, it just won't sound dull, regardless of whether you're using fingertips and no nail. Assuming you're recording setup isn't putting dullness into it, you just won't get a dull sound.

The likes of Art & Lutherie guitars are low end. I wouldn't expect a fantastic sound as it is, and if the strings in use were not put on fresh specifically for the session, I'd be looking at that way before I made assertions that you should have fingernails when picking.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Speaking as a guitarist, I disagree.:p
It's always going to be quieter, but that's not to say it sounds bad.
If you're having problems with it sounding pants, it probably has more to do with his technique, the guitar, the strings, the mic, the preamp and the room than the fact that he didn't have nails to make it loud enough to not cause these things to be as much of an issue.

Speaking as a lad who owns Guitars, I agree with Fitz.

frobisher

studiorat wrote: »

New strings New Strings New Strings.

Agus 1.

It's hard to say with hearing the recording but I'd possibly be looking at different frequencies, maybe a few DB with a narrow bandwidth cut around 700hz, a low shelf and a find where ever the action is on finger flicking the strings and see what you can do with it. Although it really sounds like he may have auld strings on and in that case you'll be hard pushed to boost what simply isn't there.

Solution? Re-record!

TelePaul

frobisher wrote: »

Solution? Re-record!

Yeah I'd like to re-track, the vocals sound good. If you wanna hear what i'm referring to, I've a largely unmixed version which I've linked to in my "what to charge" thread.