hot aegs / irish retailers

Tigger

was chronoing a few aegs this weekend and got some annoying results

here are the most outstanding


all tested at 18'c with 0.2g bb
galaxy mp5 = 106m/s=1.12 joule
hi cappa dragon = 110m/s =1.21 joule (this was on green we had no other gas but the green was bought with the pistol)
asg ak47 = 108m/s=1.17 joule
these were all bought in ireland and all owners were understandably unhappy with the situation of not being able to skirmish with these and having to first downgrade to stay compliant with the law.

the first two aegs i purchased (also in ireland) came in hot but as i am happy pulling things apart it was simply a excuse to get the modifying bug.

my advice is to customers; get the airsoft device chronoed as soon as you get it.

i doubt whether a person with an over the limit airsoft device would be in trouble if thy were , after purchasing in good faith, using it in a responsaible manner but the last thing any of us wish to hear is that one of the community was charged.
if anyone has any worries re their equipment they can pm me confidientallity for advise or alternativally the IAA http://irishairsoft.ie/ should be able to help

regards
b

Masada

350fps from a Galaxy MP5!, now that i hve never seen.,:eek:

Tigger

vtec wrote: »

350fps from a Galaxy MP5!, now that i hve never seen.,:eek:

i was impressed shocked
but the gbb cappa @ 360fps was serious

Stercus Accidit

No advice needed.

Return the faulty aegs to the retailer to be downgraded or for a refund.

The obligation is on the retailer to ensure any airsoft equipment sold is below 1 joule.

o1s1n

Tigger wrote: »

all owners were understandably unhappy with the situation of not being able to skirmish with these and having to first downgrade to stay compliant with the law.

The best course of action on their part would have been to return said equipment to the shop for either a refund or replacement rather than attempt to downgrade it themselves.

I'll keep this thread open as it is an issue which does need to be discussed. However, any posts with unfounded accusations against specific stores will be edited or removed. If anyone has a problem such as this with a retailer they'd be best resolving it in a private setting.

Masada

Tigger wrote: »

i was impressed shocked
but the gbb cappa @ 360fps was serious

the GBB is a tough one though, when it was sold it might have been well under the limit in the conditions then. its really up to the owner to ensure that they are using a gas that will be legal in the gun on the day, looks like the cappa owner is gonna have to switch to 134a for the summer months.,

MacAonghusa

Tigger wrote: »

was chronoing a few aegs this weekend and got some annoying results

is your chronograph calibrated? always the first place i'd look if a piece of equipment gives unexpected results :pac:

Masada

MacAonghusa wrote: »

is your chronograph calibrated? always the first place i'd look if a piece of equipment gives unexpected results :pac:

thats also a possibility, ive seen a couple of inaccurate ones actually.

Tigger

Motosam wrote: »

No advice needed.

Return the faulty aegs to the retailer to be downgraded or for a refund.

not if they purchased it outside the state

Stercus Accidit

Tigger wrote: »

not if they purchased it outside the state

Importing a hot aeg is a completely different situation to the one you are on about.

Masada

Tigger wrote: »

not if they purchased it outside the state

Then it might have been legal in the state, country etc where they bought it?

*off topic*
how did you type upside down on your profile?.,lol

Tigger

MacAonghusa wrote: »

is your chronograph calibrated? always the first place i'd look if a piece of equipment gives unexpected results :pac:

chrono is fine the results it gave were not unexpected.

o1s1n

Tigger wrote: »

not if they purchased it outside the state

Well you said they purchased in Ireland. Do you mean they bought it up the North? If they did then the thread title needs to be renamed as it involves another country and importing.

Tigger

vtec wrote: »

Then it might have been legal in the state, country etc where they bought it?

*off topic*
how did you type upside down on your profile?.,lol

yes so they can pm me for advice i don't want to give any broad statements regarding ether a spefic or general retailers

but for example if i had a 350fps(sine we're determined to stay imperial) aeg i would not like it to be down graded by the retailer to 280 rather i'd ask the retailer for a spring and get it close to arounf 300-310 (which is what i have done with all my gear)

o1s1n

Tigger wrote: »

yes so they can pm me for advice i don't want to give any broad statements regarding ether a spefic or general retailers

but for example if i had a 350fps(sine we're determined to stay imperial) aeg i would not like it to be down graded by the retailer to 280 rather i'd ask the retailer for a spring and get it close to arounf 300-310 (which is what i have done with all my gear)

You don't have to name names, but please state whether or not these were purchased within the Republic of Ireland. As it will completely change the tone of the whole thread.

Masada

Tigger wrote: »

yes so they can pm me for advice i don't want to give any broad statements regarding ether a spefic or general retailers

but for example if i had a 350fps(sine we're determined to stay imperial) aeg i would not like it to be down graded by the retailer to 280 rather i'd ask the retailer for a spring and get it close to arounf 300-310 (which is what i have done with all my gear)

Whenever i do downgrades for people i put them in or around the 300-310ish mark with MS90 springs, i cant imagine any retailer would aim any lower when they would have to actually buy a bunch load of under powered springs instead of having some that are perfectly legal but not too low.,

o1s1n

I'm going to close this thread until we get some clarrification from Tigger on the matter. If they were indeed purchased outside the state then I don't see why Irish retailers are being brought in to it.

Tigger, send me a pm when you get a chance.

o1s1n

The equipment in the opening post was indeed purchased in Ireland. The 'outside the state' comment was a general one and didn't refer to the devices originally mentioned.

Thread reopened.

As per thread rules, the retailers in question will not be named.

Stercus Accidit

If importing an aeg yourself, google its reviews to get a real life indication of its power, if it is likely to be over, you should e-mail the retailer for assurance it will be below the limit, or for a price for a downgrade service.

In the unlikely event you order an aeg from abroad that is over, it will either be seized by customs, where it could be destroyed.
Or it may get through customs unnoticed, if this happens you should approach a retailer here and ask to pay for a downgrade, as it is difficult to deal with a retailer overseas it is best to have it downgraded yourself, by one of the retailers at a fee, or if a knowledgeable airsofter can offer to do it themselves.

If you own a chrono and buy an ms90 spring you can downgrade yourself if you feel confident to do so.

my 2 cents

No airsofter should ever import a hot aeg, or import an aeg he does not know the fps of, the advice above is last resort stuff, when importing, you should take great care in knowing what you are ordering.

ED E

TBH I'd suspect that chrono, though somebody elses dragon was reportedly doing 360 the other day. I'd say my m9 was coming close to the limit in the good weather too(It actually worked for once). Dont want to have to buy stupid 134....

horgan_p

vtec wrote: »

Whenever i do downgrades for people i put them in or around the 300-310ish mark with MS90 springs, i cant imagine any retailer would aim any lower when they would have to actually buy a bunch load of under powered springs instead of having some that are perfectly legal but not too low.,

yeah its all 90 springs here as well.
rarely has to be done in our case though i must say. its mostly (repeat mostly) a problem with clones as opposed to Classic army , Marui etc.

Tigger

as per my pm to oisin

the gear was all purchased in the republic

bullets

MacAonghusa wrote: »

is your chronograph calibrated? always the first place i'd look if a piece of equipment gives unexpected results :pac:

I've seen and used several different Chronographs but have never seen any
form of calibration setting on them. (when I've used em I've
never seen a user manual for one so I may just not know how to get
into calibration mode if there is one)

How are they Calibrated? And how does one know if they are off somehow?
Even when I've used them for real steel shooting and I am expecting a certain fps
there is always a good bit of variance.


~B

Fallschirmjager

tigger, did you contact the retailer...?? and if so what did they said.

Tigger

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

TBH I'd suspect that chrono, though somebody elses dragon was reportedly doing 360 the other day. I'd say my m9 was coming close to the limit in the good weather too(It actually worked for once). Dont want to have to buy stupid 134....

no because we chronoed lots of things that had been done before and they were as expected

my tm p90 has upgraded with a ms90 and came in at 88ms my 249 was running 94ms as usual so i don't see that the chrono was off
the gas one is understandable the galaxy is wierd but its not so simple that we should all just blame the chrono calibration

the fact of the matter is that irish retailers are suppling over thel imit aegs (i can understand the cappa getting a boost, my gbbs have never been so happy, and having to switch to 134a ) and its goiong to cause issues for the sport
i would go so far as to suggest the expansion of the idea that its not a target and that sites develop a 95m/s or 312fps guide for cqb as this represents 0.9joules and that only long range woodland type games should be 100m/s or 1 joule. obviously this will be shouted down by skirmishers but this type of mature behaviour will set us far apart from those who would like to hurt each other with airsoft to those who actively seek to become skilled in it as a sport

Tigger

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

tigger, did you contact the retailer...?? and if so what did they said.

i don't own the items in question but i did advise the owners to contact the relavant retailers


i'm sure that it will be delt with but unless the retailer is queriying the figures there really is no excuse

ED E

bullets wrote: »

I've seen and used several different Chronographs but have never seen any
form of calibration setting on them. (when I've used em I've
never seen a user manual for one so I may just not know how to get
into calibration mode if there is one)

How are they Calibrated? And how does one know if they are off somehow?
Even when I've used them for real steel shooting and I am expecting a certain fps
there is always a good bit of variance.


~B

Most use a system where you cycle through the modes. Mine uses neutral at 100 and you can change that to 90 or 110 (+/- 10%) to "calibrate" it. I think mines pretty close on as its giving the exact same results on the UMP as site chronos. That said mine is a piece of ****, I've neayl shot the sensors to pieces!

Stercus Accidit

Tigger wrote: »

no because we chronoed lots of things that had been done before and they were as expected

my tm p90 has upgraded with a ms90 and came in at 88ms my 249 was running 94ms as usual so i don't see that the chrono was off
the gas one is understandable the galaxy is wierd but its not so simple that we should all just blame the chrono calibration

the fact of the matter is that irish retailers are suppling over thel imit aegs (i can understand the cappa getting a boost, my gbbs have never been so happy, and having to switch to 134a ) and its goiong to cause issues for the sport
i would go so far as to suggest the expansion of the idea that its not a target and that sites develop a 95m/s or 312fps guide for cqb as this represents 0.9joules and that only long range woodland type games should be 100m/s or 1 joule. obviously this will be shouted down by skirmishers but this type of mature behaviour will set us far apart from those who would like to hurt each other with airsoft to those who actively seek to become skilled in it as a sport

Point one is a very wide scoped and slanderous remark, the fact of the matter etc. seems to imply all irish retailers supply illegal goods, no, don't go there, knowing of one instance of faulty goods, or your chrono, is not grounds to accuse all Irish retailers of illegal activity.

Point two is nonsense, the law stipulates a limit of 1 joules, sites impose this limit strictly, as do the IAA etc.
What basis do you have to accuse a scirmisher with a .95 joule aeg of wanting to "hurt" people? Over .9 joules.

There is a limit, imposed by law, adhered to strictly, any over the limit gear is barred from play, and downgraded asap.

You are right, I do object to this suggestion of yours, am I immature or intent on hurting people? Or just realistic.

Tigger

irish retailers is not = all irish retailers

do you not believe that over the limit aegs have been supplied by irish retailers?
will i start a poll

would that be ok to start an annomous pole to see who has recieved hot aegs from irish retailers?

i am not alone in thinking 300-310fps is a good place to aim for (keeps you safe keeps the sport safe)


i never said you or anyother skirmishers are looking to hurt people i was refering to what afterhours would call scumbags who have no interest in the sport and just want guns

the reason skirmishers would shout down my suggestion is because more power helps with accuracy and range so they want all they can get but sites need to be safe to protect the time and money they are investing to grow our sport

you are not being immature or wanting to hurt people by wishing to use 328 as a target to stay just under and i understand your reasons i hope i didn't offend you or anyone else by what i said and i hope this clarifies things

kdouglas

Motosam wrote: »

If importing an aeg yourself, google its reviews to get a real life indication of its power, if it is likely to be over, you should e-mail the retailer for assurance it will be below the limit, or for a price for a downgrade service.

In the unlikely event you order an aeg from abroad that is over, it will either be seized by customs, where it could be destroyed.
Or it may get through customs unnoticed, if this happens you should approach a retailer here and ask to pay for a downgrade, as it is difficult to deal with a retailer overseas it is best to have it downgraded yourself, by one of the retailers at a fee, or if a knowledgeable airsofter can offer to do it themselves.

If you own a chrono and buy an ms90 spring you can downgrade yourself if you feel confident to do so.

my 2 cents

No airsofter should ever import a hot aeg, or import an aeg he does not know the fps of, the advice above is last resort stuff, when importing, you should take great care in knowing what you are ordering.

Well said. No one should ever intentionally import an over-the-limit airsoft however accidents do happen and in the case they do happen, you should have it fixed.

Also worth pointing out i've seen an ms90 spring push 360fps, so always chrono the device after a downgrade to be sure, dont assume it will fire at the level the spring is rated for.

Shiva

At the end of the day, as has been stated, its the retailer's responsibility to downgrade or "fix" hot guns. This has always been my policy, and I freely admit I've had problems like this in the past, and I've willingly and happilly sorted them out.

I dont tend have such problems now, because Eirsoft.ie is now in a position that we can and do chrono everything that's sold, but the nature of the beast is that AEG chronoing is not exact. Everyone recalls the problems experienced in Galway recently where guns that were perfectly legal one day were chroning hot the next.

And before anyone starts jumping up and down about this "problem" - the only manufacturer I know of which you can 100% guarantee will be under 300 FPS is Tokyo Marui. Every other manufacturer - Classic Army, VFC, G&G, ICS, all the clones....ALL come in at about 310-320 FPS stock, which means under certain conditions they may go over the limit.

Setting a site policy that undercuts the legal limit will seriously restrict the range of equipment that can be used by the Irish skirmisher. As Oisin stated earlier, the legalisation of airsoft came about as a side-effect of the law change - if it had been planned, there probably would have been some leeway written into the law. Because its a side effect, we're seriously restricted in what we can do here since most manufacturers - both clones and high end - aim to be as close to 1 joule as possible, and that's only when they bother taking it into consideration - a lot of them aim for 350 FPS.

I'm not aiming this at anyone, especially the OP, because it is a genuine issue, but I would submit that imposing a stupid (yes...in my opinion, stupid) site restriction of .9 J will do more harm to airsoft in this country than any hot gun ever will.

Stercus Accidit

Tigger wrote: »

irish retailers is not = all irish retailers

do you not believe that over the limit aegs have been supplied by irish retailers?
will i start a poll

would that be ok to start an annomous pole to see who has recieved hot aegs from irish retailers?

i am not alone in thinking 300-310fps is a good place to aim for (keeps you safe keeps the sport safe)


i never said you or anyother skirmishers are looking to hurt people i was refering to what afterhours would call scumbags who have no interest in the sport and just want guns

the reason skirmishers would shout down my suggestion is because more power helps with accuracy and range so they want all they can get but sites need to be safe to protect the time and money they are investing to grow our sport

you are not being immature or wanting to hurt people by wishing to use 328 as a target to stay just under and i understand your reasons i hope i didn't offend you or anyone else by what i said and i hope this clarifies things

Fair enough, but when a thread as potentially controversial as this one is created, its important to make those distinctions.

I see the point in your argument, but perhaps it is a little misguided in the way you have expressed it.

The posts regarding Irish retailers, I know all our retailers place great importance on supplying legal and safe gear, it is imperative to their continued business.
The blanket statement that Irish retailers import hot gear may not be specific to any one in particular but gives a bad impression of all of them, implying a micky mouse operation.
If you contacted the retailer, they would likely be as shocked as you that their gear was over, assuming it wasnt the chrono, and I'm sure they would have dealt with the issue in the best interest of everyone including the sport, by downgrading the aegs.

This thread seems to have diverged away from its original intention to be helpful, I dont want to argue with you on minor issues, but I feel I have raised the issues that I'm sure others would have raised with you if they were here to do so.

I think its important to see this from every perspective, including our retailers, and realise that we all want to stay legal and safe, as the sport is most important here, to all of us.

kdouglas

<mod mode>
I'd just like to make an addition to o1s1n's comment earlier, this thread is potentially very controversial, think twice and read twice before you hit the post button, there will be no warnings given here if someone slips up, it'll be an infraction or a ban straight off.
</mod mode>

o1s1n

Tigger wrote: »

do you not believe that over the limit aegs have been supplied by irish retailers?

Accidently supplied. You almost make it sound as if they did it on purpose. Any retailer I know who has done this has said they would downgrade the item for free.

Tigger wrote: »

will i start a poll

would that be ok to start an annomous pole to see who has recieved hot aegs from irish retailers?

I really can't see what point that would serve.

What's starting to bother me now is the use of 'Irish retailers'. I know I asked people not to name shops, but it's still way too vague. The items in the OP all came from the one store and were tested with one chronograph. Every other store in Ireland is being tarred, even if it's unintentional.

Therefore I think this thread has run its course.

If anyone happens to buy an AEG and it chronos hot, contact the seller immediately and ask for a replacement or your money back.

If it was imported then I'm sure one of the nice folks here will downgrade it for you.