Best boxers never to be World Champion?

eagle eye

Hi all, I was just thinking about a boxer the other day.
I actually think he was the most exciting heavyweight boxer I have ever seen.
He will probably never box again as he is in jail and is not up for parole again until 2010 and is unlikely to get paroled even then. He is 34 years old and his name for anyone too young to remember him is

Ike Ibeabuchi

. I'm sure most of you know who I am talking about but just for those who might need a minute I have placed the name in a spoiler.
I am not condoning what this man has done outside the ring, its quite clear that he was a crazy mofo.
I just think that I personally would rate him as the best boxer never to have held a title.

Raekwon

I think 'The President's' career was too short to considered to be the best fighter never to win a world title. But in saying that he definitely had the potential to be a future champion as he proved with his victories over the then undefeated David Tua & Chris Byrd.

My choice would be Angel Manfredy. He was a really colourful character and beat some decent fighters like Arturo Gatti, Julio Diaz, Ivan Robinson & Wilson Rodriguez back in the late 90's but even though he fought for a world title on four separate occasions he was never able to win any of those fights (see below).

vs. Floyd Mayweather for WBC super featherweight title - L TKO 2
vs. Stevie Johnston for WBC lightweight title - L on points 12
vs. Diego Corrales for IBF super featherweight title - L TKO 3
vs. Paul Spadafora for IBF lightweight title - L on points 12

Big Ears

Sam Langford , Charlie Burley , Herol Graham .

walshb

Bernard Dunne?:D

sligobhoy67

Big Ears wrote: »

Sam Langford , Charlie Burley , Herol Graham .

was gonna say Langford myself - although I have never seen him fight I have heard so much - there goes "the greatest boxer you never heard of" theory!

very Jack Johnsonesque - and he did hold the Spanish and Mexican heavyweight titles at one time - how, I dont know!

good shout

jayroyal

Michael Brodie cause he did actually win it but the bloody judges.:mad:

menoscemo

Have to agree with Herol Graham, always seemed to get desperately unlucky on the big occasion. Also Michael Watson.

nacho libre

Aside from the boxers mentioned already i would also include the following:

Laszlo Papp
Sam McVey
Packy McFarland

Big Ears

nacho libre wrote: »

Aside from the boxers mentioned already i would also include the following:

Laszlo Papp
Sam McVey
Packy McFarland

Papp is a great shout , often goes ignored in these sort of discussions .
If he had been able to turn pro is his prime he surely would have been a World champion , hell even at 38 he might have been good enough if they let him fight for it .

eagle eye

Jeez, you guys were a bit slow today. I am shocked that a couple of names have not come up. I will give you all another three days to come up with the obvious ones.

megadodge

In relation to Ibeabuchi, yeah he was good, but to be honest he wasn't around long enough at the top level to know how good.
And I (among many others) thought he didn't deserve the decision against Tua, so that should really put some perspective on the whole debate.

Papp, Langford and Burley by all acounts would have to be in anybody's reckoning.

sligobhoy67

I think I will cover at least 30 boxers with this - all Cubans amatuers.

Raekwon

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

I think I will cover at least 30 boxers with this - all Cubans amatuers.

Well if you are bringing Cuban amateurs into you have to mention the legendry Felix Savon

Also Ken Norton could be mentioned here.........okay he held the WBC Heavyweight title but he never actually won it in the ring and lost it on his first defence.

Big Ears

Raekwon wrote: »

Well if you are bringing Cuban amateurs into you have to mention the legendry Felix Savon

Also Ken Norton could be mentioned here.........okay he held the WBC Heavyweight title but he never actually won it in the ring and lost it on his first defence.

and if you bring in Savon you have to mention Teófilo Stevenson .

But I think we should keep this to fighters who actually fought pro .

Raekwon

Big Ears wrote: »

and if you bring in Savon you have to mention Teófilo Stevenson .

But I think we should keep this to fighters who actually fought pro .

Yeah you are right on both counts.

Another fighter worth a mention would be Micky Ward, I know he was hardly a world beater but he was a very entertaining fighter who always gave 110% and was unlucky not to win a world title IMO (he got stopped on cuts fighting against Vince Philips for the IBF light welterweight title in what was his only ever title shot).

eagle eye

megadodge wrote: »

In relation to Ibeabuchi, yeah he was good, but to be honest he wasn't around long enough at the top level to know how good.
And I (among many others) thought he didn't deserve the decision against Tua, so that should really put some perspective on the whole debate.

Papp, Langford and Burley by all acounts would have to be in anybody's reckoning.

Did you actually watch that fight? I seen it and there was a clear winner in my eyes.
I expected Tua to beat him too, as he was being hyped as the new Tyson at that time. I really don't know how anyone could say that fight was even a really close decision.

eagle eye

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

I think I will cover at least 30 boxers with this - all Cubans amatuers.

Yes that was what I was expecting. Teofilio Stephenson and Felix Savon were outstanding heavyweights and three time Olympic champions. You had Andres Aldama who was beaten by Sugar Ray Leonard in the Montreal Olympic final and won gold at the Moscow Olympics. Two time middleweight winner Ariel Hernandez and a host of others, too many to mention here. Hernandez beat Chris Byrd in one of his Olympic finals. Of the current bunch Guillermo Rigendoux Ortiz is exceptional, he has had a lot of trouble over the last couple of months but hopefully he is getting his shot to emulate Shephenson and Savons with three gold medals. I don't know if he is, but he deserves that chance. I'm not up to date on his current status.
Also I agree with the others mentioned especially Papp who by all accounts was completely dominant in his era in amateur boxing.

Big Ears

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes that was what I was expecting. Teofilio Stephenson and Felix Savon were outstanding heavyweights and three time Olympic champions. You had Andres Aldama who was beaten by Sugar Ray Leonard in the Montreal Olympic final and won gold at the Moscow Olympics. Two time middleweight winner Ariel Hernandez and a host of others, too many to mention here. Hernandez beat Chris Byrd in one of his Olympic finals. Of the current bunch Guillermo Rigendoux Ortiz is exceptional, he has had a lot of trouble over the last couple of months but hopefully he is getting his shot to emulate Shephenson and Savons with three gold medals. I don't know if he is, but he deserves that chance. I'm not up to date on his current status.
Also I agree with the others mentioned especially Papp who by all accounts was completely dominant in his era in amateur boxing.

Rigondeux isn't allowed ever box again after attempting to leave Cuba(along with teamate Lara) and turn pro in Germany . They were caught in Brazil and neither is ever allowed box again , unless they are to successfully defect and rumour is it that Lara has tried again and has managed to leave Cuba .
Rigondeux was apparently going with him again but changed his mind at the last minute .

It would be a shame if neither got their chance to have a go at the pro game as both of them(and particularly Rigondeux) could be something very special in the pros .

megadodge

Did you actually watch that fight? I seen it and there was a clear winner in my eyes.
I expected Tua to beat him too, as he was being hyped as the new Tyson at that time. I really don't know how anyone could say that fight was even a really close decision.

I have the fight on video/dvd and have watched it more than once.
I have never marked it to Ibeabuchi but I really don't know how anyone could say that fight was NOT close. It was.

Even though I didn't regard it as a very bad decision, I (and many others) thought Tua was a close but definite winner.

eagle eye

megadodge wrote: »

I have the fight on video/dvd and have watched it more than once.
I have never marked it to Ibeabuchi but I really don't know how anyone could say that fight was NOT close. It was.

Even though I didn't regard it as a very bad decision, I (and many others) thought Tua was a close but definite winner.

It was without doubt one of the greatest fights I have ever seen. It was close as in they both went at it hammer and tongs for the whole fight.
I was with a group of people at the time, somehow I remember it all very clearly. I had backed Tua to win the fight against a buddy of mine. I remember after the final bell that I had mixed feelings as I knew I had just witnessed a great fight but knew also that I would be handing over $50 to my buddy and it would be hard to listen to him. lol.
Anyways each to his own as far as decisions go. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one it seems.

I have a question for all as well.
As far as great fights are concerned and there have been loads of them. I don't have tapes or links to any myself, I have seen the section on that but is there a section for mentioning great fights?
Its just that while thinking of this particular fight another one comes to mind. It was two middle of the road boxers who got it on one night on the usa network tuesday night fights in the late nineties, the fight was so exciting that they got to get it on again with a nice payday a couple of months later and they did not disappoint.
I don't know if anyone here seen these fights the boxers involved were Rocky Gannon and Dominic Carter. Two great fights, if anyone can find a copy of this on youtube or elsewhere I would love to watch this fight again.

Hero Of College

Gerry "The Bellflower Bomber" Quarry, Heavyweight.

• The guy would have DOMINATED the Cruiserweight division if it existed, and would dee-stroy the likes of David Haye and co. As it happens, he was like Jimmy Connors to Borg and McEnroe, just not good enough in the strongest Heavyweight class ever.

Herol "Bomber" Graham, Middleweight.

• Just ran into a great crop of middlweights. Oh, and Jacksons right hand. Got really unlucky versus Charles Brewer in what was his last crack at the title.

Daniel "Poison" Pimentel, Bantamweight

• One of the hardest punching bantamweights ever. Missed one chance of a title fight when Eder Jofre couldn't make weight, and then missed another when he ran into Rueben Olivares. Would have picked up a title for fun today.

Hero Of College

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes that was what I was expecting. Teofilio Stephenson and Felix Savon were outstanding heavyweights and three time Olympic champions. You had Andres Aldama who was beaten by Sugar Ray Leonard in the Montreal Olympic final and won gold at the Moscow Olympics. Two time middleweight winner Ariel Hernandez and a host of others, too many to mention here. Hernandez beat Chris Byrd in one of his Olympic finals. Of the current bunch Guillermo Rigendoux Ortiz is exceptional, he has had a lot of trouble over the last couple of months but hopefully he is getting his shot to emulate Shephenson and Savons with three gold medals. I don't know if he is, but he deserves that chance. I'm not up to date on his current status.
Also I agree with the others mentioned especially Papp who by all accounts was completely dominant in his era in amateur boxing.

Stevenson got laid out twice by Igor Vysotsky, a guy who simply had his number. Its worth remembering that Bobick added up to very little in the pros, as did Tyrrel Biggs, both of whom were two of Stevensons best known opponents. Also, Cuban legend Kid Gavilan also said that he thought both Savon and Stevenson were lazy sons of b!tches and that neither of them had what it took. Finally, the fact that neither of them turned pro really makes them unsuitable for consideration. At least guys like Quarry got close to a world title and worked their way up through a tough division. We know he could take a shot with 8oz gloves and could go 15 rounds......do we know the same about Stevenson and Savon???

eagle eye

Igor Vytosky is another one who could have made it big as a pro, the only problem he had was the he cut up easily. But he undoubtedly had the power to be a major force if the had turned pro.
I don't think you give enough credit to Stevenson and Savon. Its quite clear that in the pro ranks, with proper trainers that a fighter of Stevensons or Savons class would be properly prepped for any fight and I do believe that both had the class to make it to the very top.
Stevenson was the one they all wanted to fight Ali. It never happened but it would have been a great fight. He had unbelievable hand speed for a heavyweight and was very ring savvy. I am not saying he would have beaten Ali, I am just saying that he was the most similar boxer to Ali who was successful.
The two men won three Olympic gold medals, and incredible achievement.
The fact that Tyrell biggs and some other guys were not so successful is irrevelant, he did beat them. Thats all any fighter can do is beat who is put in front of him.
Regarding the losses to Vytosky, they happened in the Cuban international amateur tournament and a Russia vs Cuba team event. Its a pity they did not get to fight in a World Championship or Olympic event where Stevenson was always at his best. Its not clear what shape Stevenson was in for those fights, its very likely that he would not have been in prime condition, considering the timing of both tournaments as they both a little too close to major events.

Gavin "shels"

No one has said my personal hero Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.:eek:

megadodge

With regard to Savon, it sounds ridiculous to say it considering his achievments, but I was never overly impressed with him.

I saw him live in a World Cup tourney in the Stadium in the very early 90's along with numerous times on TV and I always thought that he was just so much bigger (the man is enormous) and had such long arms that he was just physically too much for 'normal' sized heavies. He was really a super-heavy who could make 91kg.

Whether this accounted for the numerous times he seemed to be shaken when hit cleanly I'm not sure, but his physical attributes, his excellent conditioning and big right hand took care of things and more power to him, but I honestly think if he turned pro and had to fight bigger men who could match him physically he would have ended up something like Jorge Luis Gonzalez (who beat both Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe in the amateurs, but achieved nothing as a pro).

Big Ears

Gavin shels wrote: »

No one has said my personal hero Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.:eek:

As far as boxing goes Carter was good but nothing special , and unlike a film would want you to be believed he wasn't robbed in a World title fight .

Carter could have become a World champion in a different era(especially one of the more modern eras with multiple belts) but I wouldn't put him up there with a lot of the other guys that have been mentioned .

eagle eye

megadodge wrote: »

With regard to Savon, it sounds ridiculous to say it considering his achievments, but I was never overly impressed with him.

I saw him live in a World Cup tourney in the Stadium in the very early 90's along with numerous times on TV and I always thought that he was just so much bigger (the man is enormous) and had such long arms that he was just physically too much for 'normal' sized heavies. He was really a super-heavy who could make 91kg.

Whether this accounted for the numerous times he seemed to be shaken when hit cleanly I'm not sure, but his physical attributes, his excellent conditioning and big right hand took care of things and more power to him, but I honestly think if he turned pro and had to fight bigger men who could match him physically he would have ended up something like Jorge Luis Gonzalez (who beat both Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe in the amateurs, but achieved nothing as a pro).

LOl, I remember Gonzalez and all his trials and tribulations. Apparently he ran from the Cubans in Finland and spent time in jail in Russia as well. I remember he fought on the undercard of the Bowe vs Holyfield fight, the one where the parachutist arrived in the ring. He fought some really good guy there and was frightening to look at, walking around the ring taunting his opponent by shouting 'hit me, hit me', and he destroyed that guy, I thought he would make a big impression but was never a match up for any world class opponent.

phily2002

Andrew Golota
David Tua
hector 'Torero' Lopez
pretty sure Ibeabuchi would have won one if he wasn't a nutter, think he took to many left hooks off Tua in there fight, best heavy fight Ive seen though, broke Ali- Fraizers record for most punches thrown in a heavy fight, plus it was 12 rds not 15! thats pretty impressive!

Hero Of College

Gavin shels wrote: »

No one has said my personal hero Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.:eek:

Oh yeah. He coulda been "the champion of the world" if he didn't LOSE his title fight and then get beat in 10 out his next 20 or something.......:rolleyes: The guy was a muscular puncher but had a soft jaw and was badly exposed by the better fighters of his era. He blew out Griffith, sure, but Griffith was more Welterweight than he was Middlweight.

Hero Of College

eagle eye wrote: »

LOl, I remember Gonzalez and all his trials and tribulations. Apparently he ran from the Cubans in Finland and spent time in jail in Russia as well. I remember he fought on the undercard of the Bowe vs Holyfield fight, the one where the parachutist arrived in the ring. He fought some really good guy there and was frightening to look at, walking around the ring taunting his opponent by shouting 'hit me, hit me', and he destroyed that guy, I thought he would make a big impression but was never a match up for any world class opponent.

Yup. Kudos to you and Megadodge too. Its also worth remembering that other Cubans like Ramon Garbey also failed to live up to expectations. Even Cubans like Casamayor had limited success.....he was always in the shadow of Mayweather. Sure, JC Gomez had a good run but he never really stepped it up in the Marquee division that is Heavyweight.

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

Yup. Kudos to you and Megadodge too. Its also worth remembering that other Cubans like Ramon Garbey also failed to live up to expectations. Even Cubans like Casamayor had limited success.....he was always in the shadow of Mayweather. Sure, JC Gomez had a good run but he never really stepped it up in the Marquee division that is Heavyweight.

Garbey was a major failure , however I wouldn't play down Casamayor's or Gomez's accomplishments .

Casamayor(who as we know beat our own Wayne McCullough to win gold in Barcelona) won WBA Super-Featherwight , WBC/Ring/WBO interim titles at Lightweight .

He's lost to Corrales , Castillo , Freitas and drawn with Kid Diamond(who's a decent fighter) , he should have also lost the Santa Cruz fight .

The big disappointment there will be the Freitas fight where he had a chance to become Super-featherweight king but just didn't do enough .

On the plus side he has 2 wins over Corrales , a win over Nate Campbell , Michael Katsidis(yes he's a very open brawler but he's dangerous) , David Santos and Roberto Garcia . It probably doesn't do justice to the talent he had but he hasn't exactly been a failure either , and considering his next opponent is Juan Manuel Marquez he'll have a really good opportunity to increase the quality of his career as a whole .

Gomez is one of the top 5 Cruiserweights ever and while things really stalled for him when he moved up to heavy he's now finally getting a shot as he takes on Vladamir Virchis in September in a final-eliminator for Sam Peter's WBC title .

I reckon Gomez will outbox Virchis , and he's capable of outboxing Peter for long periods too but his chin will probably let him down .

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

Garbey was a major failure , however I wouldn't play down Casamayor's or Gomez's accomplishments .

Casamayor(who as we know beat our own Wayne McCullough to win gold in Barcelona) won WBA Super-Featherwight , WBC/Ring/WBO interim titles at Lightweight .

He's lost to Corrales , Castillo , Freitas and drawn with Kid Diamond(who's a decent fighter) , he should have also lost the Santa Cruz fight .

The big disappointment there will be the Freitas fight where he had a chance to become Super-featherweight king but just didn't do enough .

On the plus side he has 2 wins over Corrales , a win over Nate Campbell , Michael Katsidis(yes he's a very open brawler but he's dangerous) , David Santos and Roberto Garcia . It probably doesn't do justice to the talent he had but he hasn't exactly been a failure either , and considering his next opponent is Juan Manuel Marquez he'll have a really good opportunity to increase the quality of his career as a whole .

Gomez is one of the top 5 Cruiserweights ever and while things really stalled for him when he moved up to heavy he's now finally getting a shot as he takes on Vladamir Virchis in September in a final-eliminator for Sam Peter's WBC title .

I reckon Gomez will outbox Virchis , and he's capable of outboxing Peter for long periods too but his chin will probably let him down .

Just as a matter of interest......with Vitali Klitschko retiring as EMERITUS WBC champ, doesn't that mean he is in effect the WBC#1 contender?? By the way, I always thought it was funny how Gomez never made it into the names of the bad guys when Steve Bunce was giving us a run down of who's-who in the German box scene.

I think Bunce knows that Gomez would slap Haye from pillar to post in a heartbeat. Virchis is a bit basic but he is tall and well built, not the fat plodder that Sinan Samil Sam was when he lost to Gomez. I like Virchis but one guy I like more is Taras Bidenko. In stark contrast to Haye and Harisson, he went in with Nikolai Valuev in only his third fight!!

Anyways....it would be nice to see Gomez get the win over Virchis.