Leinster League - blatant cheating

eoin-dubh

Is there any point in playing in league games where players act as umpires
and blatantly cheat ??
Apart from the plum LBW's not being given and obvious caught behinds ignored....

is it accepted that cheating is part and parcel of the Leinster league ??
(won't mention the opposition)

opinions please............

acc grinds

No it shouldnt be accepted. I can accept LBWs not being given as most lads who umpire dont fully understand the law and theres a many an LBW given thats not out as well.

I cant accept caught behinds not being given , Im a wickie and cant stand when players dont walk after nicking it. I normally dont even appeal for a caught behind i just go off celebrating cos i know when someone has nicked it. Also tight run outs are never given which does my head in as well.

OP if its not LBW or caught behind thats annoyed you , Are you referring to wides and no balls being given when they shouldnt be?

I find in close games more wides will be given to try and help the batting side.

Every team regardless of the league should have players that have attended and passed an umpire exam and every player should play to the "spirit" of the game.

Bobo148

eoin-dubh wrote: »

Is there any point in playing in league games where players act as umpires
and blatantly cheat ??
Apart from the plum LBW's not being given and obvious caught behinds ignored....

is it accepted that cheating is part and parcel of the Leinster league ??
(won't mention the opposition)

opinions please............

Give us some more details of the incident?

Players acting as umpires is an inherently unsatisfactory situation. Batsmen do not act honourably, and put their own team mates under pressure when they are acting as umpires.

The team batting second will always, always, try to balance out perecived slights from the first innings.

Umpiring a match is a rewarding experience, doing so as a neutral changes the perspective completely and will give you a new appreciation of the game.

The training course currently offered by the LCU&SA is second to none on the Island and every player who has ever considered cricket seriously should attend, even if they do not plan on umpiring.

TrueDub

I'd like some more detail on the incident itself, although I reckon we could fill pages & pages with stories of cheating.

The game has changed, there's more cheating & sharp practice around these days, simply because players ape what they see on TV.

Bobo148 wrote: »

Umpiring a match is a rewarding experience, doing so as a neutral changes the perspective completely and will give you a new appreciation of the game.

I agree 100% - it's a very liberating feeling standing in the middle knowing that you don't give a sh*t who wins, but having the best place to watch the action from!

Bobo148 wrote: »

The training course currently offered by the LCU&SA is second to none on the Island and every player who has ever considered cricket seriously should attend, even if they do not plan on umpiring.

Couldn't agree more - there's something for everyone to learn, especially as nobody knows the Laws as well as they think they do!

dereko1969

as a wickie i get so fed up with people not walking it really just brings a nasty feeling to the game.
usually whoever bats first sets the tone, fair calling of wides, lbw etc i also think there's so much ignorance of the laws out there - one of the best things i found about the course was that it showed me how little i knew, one thing that springs to mind is the wide ball, that it's not just exactly x far outside off stump but depends on how high the delivery is where the batsman would expect to play their shot and have to be able to hit it with the middle of the bat and not the toe ie they have to be able to play a normal shot for the position of the ball - i've probably explained that poorly i'll try and dig up a photo that explains it....

neilmulvey

I suffered a similar incident a few weeks ago in a league game.

Batsman clearly nicked the ball and after the wicket keeper took the catch the umpire didnt raise his finger but the batsman walked about 10/15 paces away before realising the decision still wasnt given and returned to the crease.

Thankfully he skied the next ball straight up in the air and the wicket keeper took the catch easily enough.

Batting 2nd is definitely an advantage. You can umpire games to the same standard as the opposition.

randomer

neilmulvey wrote: »

Batting 2nd is definitely an advantage. You can umpire games to the same standard as the opposition.

I don't think that batting second should be an advantage. I think people should make decisions based on merit, rather than what happened in the first innings. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Bobo148

Any disasters this weekend?

I was at one game where I saw the batting captain leather the ball to the keeper, put his bat under his arm, take two steps and then stop when he saw that it wasn't been given.

Very poor show by the captain, he should have a better attitude and shouldn't put his players under that pressure when they umpire.

The batsman rightly copped a heap in the rest of the innings.

Warney

I remember once I was opening when when a ball hit me above the knee going down the leg side, when our umpire gave me out, I couldn't believe it. Got plenty of sympathy when I got back to the pav and then when our innings was finished their 'keeper came up and told me I got a bad call

manic56

Back in the day when I was still at school I used to play a fair bit of cricket.Whenever I used to have to umpire the captain used to just say keep your finger in your pocket and ignore them if they get stroppy.It worked.

dereko1969

well to revisit this, i was the victim of some blatant cheating the weekend before last when one of their batsmen refused to walk when he edged it to me, no doubt in my mind or my colleagues at slip and gully - spoiled the game totally for me, wouldn't have minded losing that game as the rest of their lads were sound and we didn't put up much of a total but they went on to win the game and i got abuse from the cheater cause i refused to shake his hand at the end! i'd been given a catch earlier that was a mere feather of an edge this was so much more than that and he stood there saying i never touched it, lying cheating muppet.

HonalD

It's just not cricket :mad:

cgf

Suffered a blantant example of it yesterday.

Batsman nicks to slip, caught low down but caught cleanly and batsman stands his ground. I was at gully and had a clear view of it. Offical umpire at far end was unsighted by bowler. Non-striker said it carried, square leg umpire (from fielding team) says to square leg fielder that it was out. Official umpire goes over to consult and square leg umpire then says that he didn't see if it carried clearly so non-striker end umpire (official) gives it not out - which if fair enuff as he didn't see it and the square leg ump wouldn't confrm that it carried even though he had said to the fielder that it was out.

2 instances of cheating - 1st the batsman - he saw it straight into the fielders hand and knows it was caught cleanly. He even said the he saw the fielder get his finger under it. 2nd the square leg umpire changing his story when approached by the official umpire.

And as if to rub salt into the wound the cheating batsman then tried to engage us in banter during tea as if nothing had happened. He's one of these punter that always full of chat before, during & after the match but he showed his true colours yesterday and will forever be branded as a CHEAT.

And irony of irony, he cheated for nothing as it pi$$ed rain during tea and the game was abandonded. All he achieved was to reveal his true character.

HonalD

cgf wrote: »

Suffered a blantant example of it yesterday.

Batsman nicks to slip, caught low down but caught cleanly and batsman stands his ground. I was at gully and had a clear view of it. Offical umpire at far end was unsighted by bowler. Non-striker said it carried, square leg umpire (from fielding team) says to square leg fielder that it was out. Official umpire goes over to consult and square leg umpire then says that he didn't see if it carried clearly so non-striker end umpire (official) gives it not out - which if fair enuff as he didn't see it and the square leg ump wouldn't confrm that it carried even though he had said to the fielder that it was out.

2 instances of cheating - 1st the batsman - he saw it straight into the fielders hand and knows it was caught cleanly. He even said the he saw the fielder get his finger under it. 2nd the square leg umpire changing his story when approached by the official umpire.

And as if to rub salt into the wound the cheating batsman then tried to engage us in banter during tea as if nothing had happened. He's one of these punter that always full of chat before, during & after the match but he showed his true colours yesterday and will forever be branded as a CHEAT.

And irony of irony, he cheated for nothing as it pi$$ed rain during tea and the game was abandonded. All he achieved was to reveal his true character.

Can we clarify this - is a cheat someone who influences the umpire to make a false decision e.g. touch their pads when they nicked it, or shakes their head when they nicked it OR someone who waits for an umpires decision and doesn't walk if given not out. Are these 2 different charges? One of deceit - the other of failing to walk but not being given out?

I would be pissed with the umpire though!

djimi

cgf wrote: »

Suffered a blantant example of it yesterday.

Batsman nicks to slip, caught low down but caught cleanly and batsman stands his ground. I was at gully and had a clear view of it. Offical umpire at far end was unsighted by bowler. Non-striker said it carried, square leg umpire (from fielding team) says to square leg fielder that it was out. Official umpire goes over to consult and square leg umpire then says that he didn't see if it carried clearly so non-striker end umpire (official) gives it not out - which if fair enuff as he didn't see it and the square leg ump wouldn't confrm that it carried even though he had said to the fielder that it was out.

This is not cheating. If the bowlers follow thru impedes the view of the umpire then it is the fault of the bowler if the umpire is unable to give a decision.

I have found a lot this season, more so than any other year, umpires (the oppositions batsmen, not official umpires) are giving a ridiculous amount of wides. I play Junior A most of the time, and off side wides are being given for balls that wouldnt have been called wide in Middle A a couple of years ago. It is causing some nasty feelings in games against teams that previously would have been pleasant games. There seems to be no clear guideline as to what is wide and what isnt, and if there is, its being blatently ignored.

The problem of LBWs not being given has always existed, and will never go away while teams umpire their own batting. Who is going to give their number 11 out LBW when you need 2 runs to win? I dont agree with it, but unfortunately its human nature.

I will balance this out with a story of unbelievable sportsmanship. Playing in the Whelan Cup this season, we needed 2 runs to win with 3 balls remaining, and our number 11 was given out LBW by a neutral umpire even tho he clearly played the ball onto his foot (to be fair to the umpire it was 9.30 at night in mid-May). He started walking off, only to be called back by the opposition captian, who said to the umpire that he had hit it and was not out. We then won the game off the next ball. This is what is meant by the Spirit of Cricket, and this is the way the game is meant to be played. Victory by cheating is shallow and pointless. Everyone left that game feeling good about it, and even if we had lost, I still would have enjoyed it as it reminded me of what the game is all about.

djimi

HonalD wrote: »

Can we clarify this - is a cheat someone who influences the umpire to make a false decision e.g. touch their pads when they nicked it, or shakes their head when they nicked it OR someone who waits for an umpires decision and doesn't walk if given not out. Are these 2 different charges? One of deceit - the other of failing to walk but not being given out?

I would be pissed with the umpire though!

We all try influence the umpire by giving a dirty look or whatever when there is an appeal against us. It is natural to touch your bat or whatever when being called for an LBW appeal. A good umpire should be able to ignore the batsmans gestures and make up his own mind.

Not walking is a different story, especially when it is blatant it is out. That is just going against the spirit of the game. I know it is not always obvious when you have hit the ball (I know myself I was given out before caught behind, when I went back in I wrecked the dressing room as I was adament I had not hit it, only to be told by my teammates sitting at the boundary that it was very obvious I had) and therefore not all batsmen who dont walk should be accused of cheating, but there are times when it is just ridiculous. If cricket is not played in the right spirit, then what is the point of playing at all?

You dont by any chance play for North Kildare do you...?

HonalD

djimi wrote: »

If cricket is not played in the right spirit, then what is the point of playing at all?

You dont by any chance play for North Kildare do you...?

I agree totally with this sentiment - By the way I don't play for North Kildare...but I am curious if there is a link between playing in the right spirit and North Kildare...Or am I reading more into the question...:rolleyes:

TrueDub

djimi wrote: »

There seems to be no clear guideline as to what is wide and what isnt, and if there is, its being blatently ignored.

To be a bit pedantic, there is a guide - it's the Law on wides. Law 25 (Wide Ball) states:

1. Judging a Wide
(a) If the bowler bowls a ball, not being a No ball, the umpire shall adjudge it a Wide if, according to the definition in (b) below, in his opinion the ball passes wide of the striker where he is standing and would also have passed wide of him standing in a normal guard position.

(b) The ball will be considered as passing wide of the striker unless it is sufficiently within his reach for him to be able to hit it with his bat by means of a normal cricket stroke.

2. Delivery not a Wide
The umpire shall not adjudge a delivery as being a Wide
(a) if the striker, by moving,
either (i) causes the ball to pass wide of him, as defined in 1(b) above
or (ii) brings the ball sufficiently within his reach to be able to hit it with his bat by means of a normal cricket stroke.

(b) if the ball touches the striker's bat or person.

In a lot words, it's saying that if he can't hit it from his stance, or from where he moves to, it's a wide.

One-day wides are a lot stricter, and I suspect some player-umpires, who don't know the law that well, are applying the criteria they see on TV for wides,

djimi

I was being slightly sarcastic when I said is there no clear guideline for the wides, but it appears that that law is being blatently flaunted by teams that aren using wides as a way to make up the runs. Certain teams weve played this season have been nothing short of a joke when it comes to umpiring. I know its only amatuer cricket and none of us are test standard umpires, but its not that hard to get some consistancy in decisions, especially when it comes to wides.

djimi

HonalD wrote: »

I agree totally with this sentiment - By the way I don't play for North Kildare...but I am curious if there is a link between playing in the right spirit and North Kildare...Or am I reading more into the question...:rolleyes:

Id like to think we play the game in the right spirit alright

HonalD

djimi wrote: »

I was being slightly sarcastic when I said is there no clear guideline for the wides, but it appears that that law is being blatently flaunted by teams that aren using wides as a way to make up the runs. Certain teams weve played this season have been nothing short of a joke when it comes to umpiring. I know its only amatuer cricket and none of us are test standard umpires, but its not that hard to get some consistancy in decisions, especially when it comes to wides.

Is it time for poor umpires to walk....................................:pac:

cgf

djimi wrote: »

This is not cheating. If the bowlers follow thru impedes the view of the umpire then it is the fault of the bowler if the umpire is unable to give a decision.

Ok Djimi, so nicking the ball to slip and not walking is not cheating - bad sportsmanship at best. But was the unofficial square leg umpire saying that it was out and then changing his mind when consulted by the offical umpire not cheating?

The problem is not with the official umpire - what he did was 100% correct. The problem is with the square leg umpire changing his mind when consulted not to mention the batsman saying that he saw the fielder get his fingers under it and then not walking - I really hate that crap.

The umpiring standard at self-umpired games has fallen significantly over the past few years - in the past it might have been limited to a few (I know I'm going to get slated for this but), ahem "rural", clubs but it now seems to be accepted practice that umpiring is another facet of the game in which you can look to "out-perform" the opposition.

Whilst official umpires may make bad judgement calls, they are neutral and without them the leagues & cups would descent into farce. It's a pity we can't clone TrueDub and get a few more of his ilk to cover more games.

TrueDub

cgf wrote: »

It's a pity we can't clone TrueDub and get a few more of his ilk to cover more games.

I blush...

I believe there may be slightly more to the story above, but as I wasn't there and have only heard gossip nth-hand, I'll say no more.

I was actually just about to post a similar sentiment to that of cgf's though. The answer to this (although not an easy one) is for more players to get involved in umpiring.

The course isn't onerous, and indeed can be a bit of craic if you don't let the old lags & bores like myself waffle on for too long. You'd be amazed at how much you'll learn (and how much of what you know is actually wrong :eek:). * You don't even have to stand as a neutral afterwards, but it'll make umpiring your own games much easier and more consistent.

But here's the thing: if a load of players did the course, then said "I'll do 10 junior matches a season as a neutral, to help out", it's possible that many games in lower leagues could have neutral officials. Imagine rocking up for a Junior A game to discover umpires? From chatting to our Appointments Secretary the reason games below Senior 3 don't usually get umps is because of numbers, not lack of willingness to provide them.

The answer is in our hands, it's up to the players to make the jump. If people want, I'll put up a post on a separate thread giving an account of "a day in the life" of an umpire, the good & not-so-good, and why I enjoy doing it, and you can make up your own mind. But seriously, it's the best place in the house to watch a match from.

* This is true - anyone who shows up to the course will at least once say "Hang on, I always thought it was the other way round". It's usually on technicalities, but not always.

HonalD

TrueDub wrote: »

If people want, I'll put up a post on a separate thread giving an account of "a day in the life" of an umpire, the good & not-so-good, and why I enjoy doing it, and you can make up your own mind.

GO for it!

dereko1969

since doing the course i've only umpired about 12 overs as i think my team are a little suspicious of me! i'm stuck doing the book most of the time.

something that people should look out for is players 'injuring' themselves in the course of a game and calling for a runner. played a cup game on saturday, we were skittled but their number 3 came in with a runner, surprising really as when he'd joined the game late due to winning a cup final earlier on he seemed to be moving quite freely, he moved handily enough to take a catch and after catching it made a big show of being injured thus justifying the runner. surprisingly enough :rolleyes: the very next day after 4 overs he called for a runner again.

the whole issue of teams packing their cup sides is one that makes me fume, the team we lost to at the weekend bore little resemblance (3 players) to the one we'd thrashed 2 weeks previously.

kensutz

We have the same problem with one fella in Kerry. He always seems to injure his hamstring and call for a runner.

HonalD

kensutz wrote: »

We have the same problem with one fella in Kerry. He always seems to injure his hamstring and call for a runner.

Not sure that calling for a runner is cheating!!!!!!

djimi

It is if you get some bloke who "pulls his hamstring" and calls for a runner, just because he cant run very well... (You also see this with guys who carry injuries into the game and then fake an injury on the field so they can get a runner) Ive seen this a couple of times, and as a captain theres nothing you can do about it because its impossible to prove theyre not injured. Very annoying...

NY152

Its a question of how much do you really respect the game, as well as your opposition, i mean how would you feel if you lost a game knowing that the other team cheated? The game of cricket at a club level needs to learn that there is no reward in cheating. Take the incident of the Pakistani player Shahid Afridi and his wicket tampering display,what kind of message is that to players? Let alone the infinite number of obvious dismissals that the batter so casually ignores and stays at the crease? This hasnt just got to do with the umpires, as i realise im goin off on a tangent here, but with the whol respect for the game itself. Rant over. :P

djimi

NY152 wrote: »

Its a question of how much do you really respect the game, as well as your opposition, i mean how would you feel if you lost a game knowing that the other team cheated?

Happens all the time at my level of cricket, and it bugs the hell out of me, but its unfortumately become a feature of cricket these days. I cant honestly think of one game Ive played this season where an umpire has not not given out an absolutely plum lbw decision (in one instance the batsman stepped back on his stumps, the ball hit him on the back leg half way up middle stump and was apparently "going down leg"... :rolleyes:), or more commonly where an umpire is giving very dodgy wides in an obvious attempt to boost his teams score. These decisions may not have always cost us a game, and Im in no way suggesting my team are angels when it comes to umpiring either (despite what I try to drill into their heads in the dressing room!), but the honesty does seem to be slowly slipping out of the game of cricket, certainly in the lower divisions of the Leinster Leagues anyway.

Of course, there are always those who are thankfully the exception, such as the captain who called our number 11 back after wrongfully being given out (by a neutral umpire) when they needed one wicket and we needed 2 runs to win a Whelan Cup game, and I can only hope that guys like that inspire others and that becomes the norm rather than the exception.

NY152

True, dont get me started on wides, i played a match the other day and dear mother of god ther was some of the worst wides EVER and they werent given!!!! :mad: Its ridiculous

simonrooneyzaga

djimi wrote: »

Happens all the time at my level of cricket, and it bugs the hell out of me, but its unfortumately become a feature of cricket these days. I cant honestly think of one game Ive played this season where an umpire has not not given out an absolutely plum lbw decision (in one instance the batsman stepped back on his stumps, the ball hit him on the back leg half way up middle stump and was apparently "going down leg"... :rolleyes:), or more commonly where an umpire is giving very dodgy wides in an obvious attempt to boost his teams score. These decisions may not have always cost us a game, and Im in no way suggesting my team are angels when it comes to umpiring either (despite what I try to drill into their heads in the dressing room!), but the honesty does seem to be slowly slipping out of the game of cricket, certainly in the lower divisions of the Leinster Leagues anyway.

Of course, there are always those who are thankfully the exception, such as the captain who called our number 11 back after wrongfully being given out (by a neutral umpire) when they needed one wicket and we needed 2 runs to win a Whelan Cup game, and I can only hope that guys like that inspire others and that becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Did you win in the end ;-) ?

djimi

With 2 balls to spare!

simonrooneyzaga

djimi wrote: »

With 2 balls to spare!

well then i suppose the opposing captains actions were even more noble!

Good to see!