Music and Islam

studiorat

Hi folks,
What's the general feeling on music and Sharia etc.
It would seem to me the Qur'an and Ahadith deem it inpermissable, yet there seems to be an enormous tradition of many kinds of music in the Muslim world.

So who's for music and who not?

Thanks,
Dave

wes

It depends on the particular brand of Islam. Sufi's have a huge religious musical tradition, you could probably find some stuff online, there called kawalis.

Never into religious music myself, listen to rap, rock and that sort of thing, but to be fair some of the religious stuff is really good.

hivizman

wes wrote: »

It depends on the particular brand of Islam. Sufi's have a huge religious musical tradition, you could probably find some stuff online, there called kawalis.

Never into religious music myself, listen to rap, rock and that sort of thing, but to be fair some of the religious stuff is really good.

I've been listening recently to some nasheeds by Zain Bhikha and Dawud Wharnsby Ali (singing in English) on YouTube. These are basically voice-only (possibly with a drum providing a rhythm backing). Stylistically, the songs are a bit reminiscent of Christian folk-music (which can often have rather oily lyrics).

There are a lot of piano pieces called "Arabesques", which suggests that there is a tradition of Arab music that influenced Western composers. Would this be the Sufi music?

wes

Wouldn't know the answer to that. My knowledge on this is surface deep.

studiorat

AFAIK
Sufi Music would be Qawwalli''s, the likes of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan from Pakistan I believe and the kind of music you'd find in places like Morocco. It's religious music so I'm trying to get my head around how they see themselves using music for their religious practice and what significance the music plays in their rites etc. As to me at the moment it seems somewhat paradoxical.

the_new_mr

We've had a few interesting discussions about this on this forum already. I'm quite pushed for time at the moment (and I'm also a little lazy.... sssssssshhhhhh ) so I'll quote myself if that's alright?

the_new_mr wrote:

Hi Deepbeing! Welcome to the Islam forum.

This topic has already been discussed on this forum here.

To answer your post quickly, there are three main opinions in Islam. One is that music is completely forbidden. Another is that some kinds of music (drums) and singing is okay and another that all kinds of music is okay. In the second and third opinion, the content of the music/singing has the potential to be forbidden or permissable so its content is important.

I'm of the third opinion and believe that any kind of instrument is okay just as long as the content is okay as well.

So, the answers to your questions in accordance with this third opinion would be:
Yes (if lyrics are okay)
Yes to the four other questions.

And God knows best.

I'm interested in your situation deepbeing. Are you a Muslim or thinking of embracing Islam? I'm guessing from your wording that you are already a Muslim.

What instruments do you play? Do you want to play (or already play) professionally? Sorry if there are too many questions

hivizman

the_new_mr wrote: »

We've had a few interesting discussions about this on this forum already.

Thanks for the reminder and link to a previous thread. As so often seems to be the case, there are differences of opinion among the scholars, from a very negative position that basically all music (except recitation of the Qur'an) is forbidden, through less strict views that some types of music are permitted in certain circumstances, to broader views that forbid some aspects of music but are more permissive. My own non-scholarly view is that, if particular music helps to bring you closer to God, then it's implausible that God has forbidden it.

Perhaps this is a slight tangent, but has anyone heard Sir John Tavener's lengthy choral and orchestral composition "The Beautiful Names"? Although Tavener is an Orthodox Christian and is well-known for many compositions within the Orthodox tradition, he was commissioned by Prince Charles to compose this work based on the 99 Beautiful Names of God, and it premiered about a year ago in Westminster Cathedral (to some controversy from certain Christians who saw a piece based on Qur'anic sources being performed in a Catholic church as blasphemy). I don't think it's been recorded yet, though.

the_new_mr

Woah!! :eek: I didn't know about that. I'd love to hear it. Got a link?

It seems that Prince Charles' respect for Islam just keeps increasing and increasing. Is that a good or a bad endorsement?

hivizman wrote:

My own non-scholarly view is that, if particular music helps to bring you closer to God, then it's implausible that God has forbidden it.

Ditto.

the_new_mr

Remembered this tonight so decided to see if I could find it on the net somewhere. Came across this link[/ur] from islamonline.net which has a link to the piece itself.

Have to say that I liked a lot of it but felt that some it was... how do I say it... chaotic? Also, the women in the choir were sometimes made to make some strange noises as if they were crying or in awe... I couldn't tell

Apart from that though, I liked it a lot. An interesting approach.

Something in that article made me think though. Perhaps it shouldn't have been done in a Cathedral out of respect for a Christian that might feel offended by it being done there. I think it was a good idea to do it but maybe it should have been in the Royal Albert Hall or something.

hivizman

the_new_mr wrote: »

Remembered this tonight so decided to see if I could find it on the net somewhere. Came across this link from islamonline.net which has a link to the piece itself.

Have to say that I liked a lot of it but felt that some it was... how do I say it... chaotic? Also, the women in the choir were sometimes made to make some strange noises as if they were crying or in awe... I couldn't tell

Apart from that though, I liked it a lot. An interesting approach.

Something in that article made me think though. Perhaps it shouldn't have been done in a Cathedral out of respect for a Christian that might feel offended by it being done there. I think it was a good idea to do it but maybe it should have been in the Royal Albert Hall or something.

Thanks for the link. I believe that this is just the first part of the Taverner concert, and "The Beautiful Names of Allah" starts only around 12 minutes into the recording.

The article itself was interesting and I agree that as it was likely to be provocative to some Catholics to perform the work in Westminster Cathedral, it would have been better to be premiered somewhere more neutral.

I'm listening to the piece now - it's one of those modern classical compositions that probably sounded better to the audience rather than played through the speakers on my laptop. Not so sure of the wailings and ululations, as well. Anyway, I've downloaded the file to listen to when I can concentrate better.

This would not be acceptable music to some Muslims, I think, as it involves the use of tuned musical instruments and (even worse) a mixed-voice choir.

hivizman

hivizman wrote: »

I believe that this is just the first part of the Taverner concert, and "The Beautiful Names of Allah" starts only around 12 minutes into the recording.

No, sorry, the second part follows on from the first, it's just they are spread over two files.

merrionsq

Going back to the OP point, since the Koran and Hadiths condemn music, isn't that the clearest indication you can get that music is not acceptable?

hivizman

merrionsq wrote: »

Going back to the OP point, since the Koran and Hadiths condemn music, isn't that the clearest indication you can get that music is not acceptable?

A quick on-line search showed that the word "music" does not appear in any of the three English translations of the Qur'an (Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Shakir) on the USC-MSA compendium of Muslim Texts site, while the word "singing" appears twice, in neither case in the context of a prohibition.

There is a long discussion here by the eminent Islamic scholar Shaykh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, which reviews the hadith literature. His conclusion is that the view that "the Qur'an and Hadiths condemn music" is mistaken. Yes, there are limitations on what music is acceptable and in what contexts, but the Shaykh is very critical of those who would label all music and singing as haram (forbidden).

There are of course views to the contrary, indeed some people advocate the extreme position that the only music allowed in Islam is the call to prayer and the recitation of the Qur'an, and that only the unaccompanied (male) voice.

I know that Al-Qaradawi has a bad name on some other threads because of his views on various gender issues, but his discussion of music in Islam seems to make sense to me. I'd be grateful if you would provide a link to any authoritative opinion to the contrary so that we can have a balanced discussion.

the_new_mr

hivizman wrote:

Thanks for the link.

You're welcome

hivizman wrote: »

No, sorry, the second part follows on from the first, it's just they are spread over two files.

The piece starts about 12 minutes in to the first file and goes into the second. It's about 70 minutes long!!

I didn't listen to all of it. Just about the first 30 minutes and the last 5 minutes. I was kind of hoping that it would turn into the more classical version but it didn't. But then, I guess it had to be original.

hivizman wrote:

it's one of those modern classical compositions that probably sounded better to the audience rather than played through the speakers on my laptop.

Yeah, I kinda got the feeling that it would have been better being there. Especially since the commentator at the start said that it had the names themselves being projected in English and Arabic. Ah well

Still, if I was going to be completely honest, the wails kind of spoilt it for me.

hivizman

the_new_mr wrote: »

Yeah, I kinda got the feeling that it would have been better being there. Especially since the commentator at the start said that it had the names themselves being projected in English and Arabic. Ah well

Still, if I was going to be completely honest, the wails kind of spoilt it for me.

Of all the reviews on the internet of the premiere of "The Beautiful Names of Allah" by Tavener, I think that this one gives a really good sense of what it must have been like to be in the audience.

I think that the piece has just been performed three times: London and Istanbul in 2007 and Birmingham in 2008. This sort of piece usually needs a generous sponsor to support a performance - any chance of that in Ireland?

I've been getting into some of the English-language Islamic music stuff on YouTube from Zain Bhikha, Dawud Wharnsby, Native Deen and even ol' Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam). Zain has a lovely voice but some of his songs are a bit slushy. I've been returning a lot to Yusuf Islam's "A' is for Allah", which could almost be a "child's catechism", and has a sweet video as well.

merrionsq

Funny that Cat Stevens quit music after converting, he initially thought music and instruments were forbidden by Islam. Only got back into it in the 90s.

hivizman

Yes, I read somewhere that it was actually his son who got him back into music - it's also, I guess, the mellowing that comes with age.

I'm pleasantly surprised at what can be achieved with the male voice alone, possibly with a simple percussion accompaniment. It's so different from the massed choral voices and large orchestra that Tavener uses in "The Beautiful Names".

irishconvert

Here he is back playing with a full band..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqJtV8m0Kk

the_new_mr

Yeah, everyone jump upon the peace train!

Heard a friend of his say in a TV documentary once that it's as if Cat Stevens and Yusuf Islam have gelled into one person. Cool way of saying it

larryone

Rock the Casbah started playing in my head the second I saw this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_the_Casbah
Does my interest in Islam mean I'm going to start editing my choices for what music I listen to? No. I like metal and rock, that's not going to change.

Bottle_of_Smoke

merrionsq wrote: »

Funny that Cat Stevens quit music after converting, he initially thought music and instruments were forbidden by Islam. Only got back into it in the 90s.

Or was it that he didn't like the courruption in the music business?

merrionsq

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Or was it that he didn't like the courruption in the music business?

He did seem disilusioned with being a pop star, but the main reason given from most sources for not playing music anymore was that he felt it was "haram". He's said so himself. Also, if he was only disgusted with the music industry he could have continued playing music for alternative audiences. Terrible that a religious belief could make someone do this, and then later realise they were wrong.

It does seem like he needed some sort of strict belief system to guide him - he was a bit of a "lost soul" spiritually for most of his adult life. He was born into a mixed Christian background, where religion wasn't really taken seriously. As he matured into adulthood he dabbled in Zen Buddhism, Taoism, numerology and astrology. And of course he was also a big believer in some sort of UFOlogy-type religion.

the_new_mr

Yeah, he was sort of "looking around" but, according to him, nothing struck a chord with him like Islam did.

He did in fact believe that all forms of music were forbidden when he first converted but this kind of thing is quite common in new converts as they try to make 100% sure that they're not doing anything wrong and sort of "play it on the safe side". Then, as they learn more they usually begin to realise that they may have been a bit hasty in the decision. Gotta give credit to the devotion though!

Yusuf Islam has got quite an interesting site. It's clear that he likes to philosophise a bit. Good reading.

studiorat

Hello to everybody again.
Cat/Yusef looks very good there. Never been a big fan, but he a great song writer.
I did a bit more research and I found a quote that to be best describes the music I was initially talking about. " their secret, guarded even from them, was that they were still performing the Rites of Pan under the ragged cloak of Islam". A bit patronizing but probably accurate for the main.

Pan seems to have been suggested as a parallel to Boujeloud, a boy dressed in goat skins and straw hat and mask who dances around while teasing the people. This is a festival held each year on the new moon after Ramadan.

I guess this means that the music which is said to be 4,000 years old; at least 1,400 years old in my opinion. Is as deeply ingrained in their life and is their religion. Every Friday they play in the sanctuary of the village patron saint(?) Sidi Ahmed Sheikh, the man who brought Islam to the area. Pilgrims seeking out the healing baraka of Sidi Ahmed Sheikh still come to his tomb. It is said he was a healer of those with mental problems as well as a teacher and Muslim missionary.

I was aware of how Christanity had developed as it was adopted by different people (not to mention the schisms in the early church) and interested to see that Islam has done the same both. It would seem it's not so inflexible as some would believe!

hivizman

You can hear the music of the "Master Musicians of Joujouka", who perform the dance of Bougeloud, here. How this music came to Western attention is a very interesting story, involving Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones, who released an LP of the music 40 years ago this month. Apparently Jones regarded the music as good background for smoking kif. I must say that this music isn't really to my taste, but perhaps it sounds better when you're under the influence.

studiorat

I'm going next week. I'll be spending about a week with the "Malims". Staying in their houses etc. We are recording them exactly 40 years later to the day. This being the reason I was trying to get a feel where they were coming from.

The quote was from the original sleeve notes about Hamri's family.

As for Brian Jones, I thought he was the drummer in the stones till about 3 months ago!

Thanks for the links and comments.

Especially the Tavener.

hivizman

studiorat wrote: »

I'm going next week. I'll be spending about a week with the "Malims". Staying in their houses etc. We are recording them exactly 40 years later to the day. This being the reason I was trying to get a feel where they were coming from.

Have a great trip!

studiorat wrote: »

The quote was from the original sleeve notes about Hamri's family.

The original source of the quote is the painter Brion Gysin, who was one of the "Beat Generation", and very close to writers such as William S. Burroughs (The Naked Lunch etc.). There was an exhibition in Dublin at the Irish Museum of Modern Art, on the art work of Burroughs, some of which was done in collaboration with Gysin. The exhibition, which closed at the end of June, also featured the music of the Masters of Joujouka.

studiorat wrote: »

As for Brian Jones, I thought he was the drummer in the stones till about 3 months ago!

No, Charlie Watts! :cool:

studiorat wrote: »

Thanks for the links and comments.

Especially the Tavener.

You're welcome.

studiorat

I got Jones mixed up with Keith Moon, swimming pools an' all that!

Burroughs and Gysin were very close I believe. I missed the show at I.M.M.A. hiviz. . Would have liked to have seen it too. I do have the CD's from it, though it kind of takes a lot of concentration to listen to the whole thing through. A friend has done quite a bit of work with them.

I've never really taken to the 'beat' writers apart from just that they were so influential, not really my cup of tea. More of a classics and history type me! But I have a great interest in all things Arabic and Moorish and the like.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to meeting the musicians and that Moroccan food and hospitality. I'm also glad that there's been a good few strokes pulled on this end so we don't arrive with our arms swinging. There's been a few times along the way where all we could do is shrug and say "Inshallah". But it seems to have worked out so far...

PS there's an article in the Irish Times tues, by my friend about the whole thing if you are interested.

the_new_mr

studiorat wrote:

I guess this means that the music which is said to be 4,000 years old; at least 1,400 years old in my opinion. Is as deeply ingrained in their life and is their religion. Every Friday they play in the sanctuary of the village patron saint(?) Sidi Ahmed Sheikh, the man who brought Islam to the area. Pilgrims seeking out the healing baraka of Sidi Ahmed Sheikh still come to his tomb. It is said he was a healer of those with mental problems as well as a teacher and Muslim missionary.

Absolutely shocking ignorance of Islam by those people there. If Sidi Ahmed Sheikh did bring Islam to the area, he either didn't do a very good job or his teachings were completely lost through time.

studiorat

the_new_mr wrote: »

Absolutely shocking ignorance of Islam by those people there. If Sidi Ahmed Sheikh did bring Islam to the area, he either didn't do a very good job or his teachings were completely lost through time.

hmmm, that's a bit strong... You are starting to sound like a christian brother

These are good people and are certainly devout. I'm a little insulted on my friends behalf actually. I was accepted into their homes and have been treated with such kindness that it has been a real example to me.

The Malims are professional musicians who spend their day playing music in their 'guest house' a place where they meet and will spend the night before going off the next day to play at various events around the area ranging from weddings to royal events. Hanging out there they kind of reminded me of working with the Garda band funnily enough!

I wasn't sleeping much down there and did run into the some of the Malims praying at 5 in the morning and then returning to bed. All the songs they would sing all had a religious aspect even with my limited Arabic I could tell this. Being Sufi brotherhood there seems a mystical quality to their beliefs it seems the music is either prayer or ritualistic. Teenagers in the village are very proud of the music and dance like lunatics then the musicians kick off. I had to keep reminding myself that these boys are actually stone cold sober!!!

Sidi Ahmed was the teacher of Moulay 'what's his name!' the patron "saint" of Morocco. I heard a story while I was there from a man who grew up in the village and has since lived in the states and currently in Paris. He lived beside the sanctuary as a child (50 years ago) and remembers people with mental problems being put into the sanctuary kicking and screaming and would be released later pacified and calm. These people seem never to have suffered fits etc again. Read into that what you will...
There's also a story about the Sidi taming a lion so as to pull a plough in the fields, I'm sure you get the idea of what particular 'taming' types of actions are being related by these stories.

Anyway, I don't see how these stories are any different from any other tales of religious folklore. Virgin Mary's appearing, burning bushes, cures, apparitions etc. If you start to deconstruct these stories where does it end? I mean some of these stories are more plausible than rising from the dead or divine intervention.

As someone who states their religious belief as "believe everything" I think these stories are a way in which everyone can make their religion their own and relevant to their area and people.

To sum up with an analogy, I don't think many Irish Christians actually believe St. Patrick drove all the snakes from Ireland but St. Patrick allows Irish Christians to make their own of a religion that was founded in a desert 1,000's of miles away. Likewise a local interest brings home an aspect of locality to a religion that was founded at an equally obscure distance.

larryone

studiorat wrote: »

Being Sufi brotherhood there seems a mystical quality to their beliefs it seems the music is either prayer or ritualistic.

Some people on this forum have strong opinions about Sufism. So do alot of people I know. I was warned here that Sufism is heresy. I have friends who say that it's not Islamic (which I would consider to be a bit of a harsh view)

They do seem to have alot of music and dance in their religious practices and traditions.
Personally I find Sufism generally more interesting than the major sects.

In your OP you ask about views on qur'anic and hadithic restrictions on it.
Some Sufis come to conclusions about Allah (through trance, meditation, philosophy, etc) that contradict hadith (hardly supprising) and even the qur'an (which is supprising)
So it would seem that they do not hold as tightly to the strict interpretations of texts.
Personally I would tend to largely disregard the hadith anyway, but bringing the authority of the Qur'an into question is a touchy subject.

merrionsq

the_new_mr wrote: »

Absolutely shocking ignorance of Islam by those people there. If Sidi Ahmed Sheikh did bring Islam to the area, he either didn't do a very good job or his teachings were completely lost through time.

You surprise me "the new mr". Normally your posts have a sense of balance, and humour to them. You seem very intolerant of of these Sufi beliefs. Can't you accept that these people may have beliefs different to your own?

Unfortunately Sufi's lives are under threat in various Islamic countries by others who seem themselves are the "true believers". http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/21/news/sufis.php
Typically Saudi-influenced Sunnism.

merrionsq

studiorat wrote: »

To sum up with an analogy, I don't think many Irish Christians actually believe St. Patrick drove all the snakes from Ireland but St. Patrick allows Irish Christians to make their own of a religion that was founded in a desert 1,000's of miles away. Likewise a local interest brings home an aspect of locality to a religion that was founded at an equally obscure distance.

That may make sense. But that sort of logic doesn't go down well with some religious fundamentalists. You could get yourself in trouble by applying that sort of logic to Islam. For example, looking at the origins of the Kabba in Mecca. What preceeded Islam, and how that was woven into Islam's founding stories.

studiorat

merrionsq wrote: »

That may make sense. But that sort of logic doesn't go down well with some religious fundamentalists. You could get yourself in trouble by applying that sort of logic to Islam. For example, looking at the origins of the Kabba in Mecca. What preceeded Islam, and how that was woven into Islam's founding stories.

Any kind of thinking doesn't go down with any fundamentalists period.
It's a dangerous line in any religion between faith, family tradition and a good philosophy for living and the magic and the mumbo jumbo...

Anyway I was always told that the Holy Roman Catholic Church was the one true faith and everyone else would end up in limbo!!! ;o)

Mr. CooL ICE

I found quite a lot of bands on metal-archives that reside in a lot of islamic countries. Take Halla from Tehran, Iran for example; I thought under sharia law, anything like this would be completely forbidden. Was I wrong, or would these bands be fake?