What to charge?

TelePaul

Hey guys. My brothes friend rang me to ask if he could record some very basic demos (three songs) with the singer from his band - he's trying to keep things ticking over while the rest of the band are away for the summer.

If it was one of my friends, and if I had more free time before I start work, I'd probably do it pro-bono. It's just a couple of acoustic tracks, vocals, maybe one electric and some harmonica.

I'm trying to figure out what to charge - my set-up is VERY basic, all my gear is very much entry-level.

sei046

TBH in that case just think what would make it worth your while. Dont be worried about the going rate. If its a mate sure just get the price of a few pints or maybe some little piece of kit youd like.

If you have to think about what to charge then its not a big issue TBH. I reckon just get the price of a few mic stands or a 58 or 57 or something

TelePaul

sei046 wrote: »

TBH in that case just think what would make it worth your while. Dont be worried about the going rate. If its a mate sure just get the price of a few pints or maybe some little piece of kit youd like.

If you have to think about what to charge then its not a big issue TBH. I reckon just get the price of a few mic stands or a 58 or 57 or something

I could do with a 57......

sei046

well there you go. You are getting something for helping him out and its much cheaper for him

TelePaul

I think €30 per song would be good so.

seannash

free man,im presuming this is a hobby(ie your not making a living at it yet).
just do it and see if anything comes from it.

TelePaul

seannash wrote: »

free man,im presuming this is a hobby(ie your not making a living at it yet).
just do it and see if anything comes from it.

I don't want to do it for free, because this is going to take up two days of my very limited free time. I'm thinking of charging for the opportunity cost of my time - i.e, if every hour I spend doing this guy a favour was spent working for minimum wage. I think that's fair, he's not a mate.

sei046

I dunno. Not sure if i agree!

TelePaul

sei046 wrote: »

I dunno. Not sure if i agree!

Go on.....

sei046

Well Im pretty sure if you ask the lads here that are fairly set up they will say they did a good few freebies to learn the trade. If its just a hobby it might be in your interest to treat it as an experience and that also clears you of any expectations!

Its completely up to you and I think you should get a token of gratitude alright. I remember one of my first albums was done for 50 euro. We were even in the euro then! Im only a baby!

studiorat

40 euro an hour. About half what you would expect to pay a plumber.

Chances are he will probably go out and buy some gear then and do it himself.

TelePaul

studiorat wrote: »

40 euro an hour. About half what you would expect to pay a plumber.

Chances are he will probably go out and buy some gear then and do it himself.

He has a Boss Multi-track HD recorder buy hasn't bothered to learn how it works.

studiorat

If thats the case he deserves to be charged through the nose

TelePaul

studiorat wrote: »

If thats the case he deserves to be charged through the nose

Haha! I kinda agree! I'll have to drop him a text now and address the issue now before it gets embarassing.

seannash

i just think if there forking over any money there going to want a very professional sounding end result.
now im not saying your not capable(i dont know how experienced you are) but once theres money involved the expectation comes with it.
im sure if you do a good job they will pay you back somehow.
ive had mates over and they wanna make a track.they think 123 theyll have a hit but the reality is alot different.
just dont give them great expectations unless your really confident in the final outcome.

empirix

Sorry mate - don't agree with you there, yeah 2 days of limited time but, hey, i believe in helping each other out, you do a good job and he passes word on and then who knows! Personally i would just help him out!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

cmon, you cant charge this guy when you only have basic gear. just say no if you dont have the time - or if you want to learn and gain experience , then do it for free .

studiorat

empirix wrote: »

Sorry mate - don't agree with you there, yeah 2 days of limited time but, hey, i believe in helping each other out, you do a good job and he passes word on and then who knows! Personally i would just help him out!

You do a good job and then he goes somewhere else for the next one 'cause he has a bigger budget. Don't be fooled by that one. That one suckers every young engineer out there.

If the dude couldn't be bothered learning to use the gear after buying it why on earth would you be bothered to do it for him for free. That's just taking the piss.

As a freelancer in this business I'll tell you one thing, 60% of people expect you to do it for the love of music. The amount of guys with home studios now as utterly de-valued the work of professionals in recording studios everywhere.

I mean there goes a gig which would go for someone just starting out, and these guys want to give it away for free? HElping people goes both ways lads.

seannash

studiorat wrote: »

You do a good job and then he goes somewhere else for the next one 'cause he has a bigger budget. Don't be fooled by that one. That one suckers every young engineer out there.

If the dude couldn't be bothered learning to use the gear after buying it why on earth would you be bothered to do it for him for free. That's just taking the piss.

As a freelancer in this business I'll tell you one thing, 60% of people expect you to do it for the love of music. The amount of guys with home studios now as utterly de-valued the work of professionals in recording studios everywhere.

I mean there goes a gig which would go for someone just starting out, and these guys want to give it away for free? HElping people goes both ways lads.

i got the impression it wasnt his livelyhood.thought it was just a hobby for the guy.if hes running a professional studio than yeah charge but i didnt get the impression he was.
if he was he wouldnt ask this question really.

sei046

Well even if it was just a hobby its grand to throw a few pound but in this case I wouldnt be looking for much. Your putting too much pressure on yourself. studiorat made the point that they go to other studios when they have bigger budgets etc and that is completely true. But unless you can do a better job than these bigger studios thats a good thing! If he gets really good results this time for next to nothing, goes to another studio and pays through the nose and doesnt get the same quality he will pay you to do it the next time around

dav nagle

studiorat wrote: »

40 euro an hour. About half what you would expect to pay a plumber.

Chances are he will probably go out and buy some gear then and do it himself.

€100 per day as a mate

TelePaul

Okay, first off, he's not my mate - he's my brothers mate. And second, while I wont be capable of doing a professional job, I won't be charging anything close to what a professional charges. Surely there's a curve, no? I think studiorat is right - freebies tend to hurt amateurs. I shoot quite alot of photography, and it's the same idea; there are so many people willing to have their work used by the media for nothing, when in reality they're perfectly entitled to payment. It's their time and their equipment and expertise.

TelePaul

empirix wrote: »

hey, i believe in helping each other out, you do a good job and he passes word on and then who knows!

Yeah he passes word on and his mates wanna come down and cut their demos. I would NEVER rip anyone off but I don't wanna be ripped off myself.

Okay I should probably back up a bit. I'd hate for some of you to get the wrong impression nof me, as can happen on forums. It's not in my nature to conn people out of money, or even be massively financially driven. The reason my gear is entry-level is that I'd consider myself a musician first, an engineer second. I've a half-dozen high end guitars and amps, and I have trouble saying no to a sweet six-string :O I'm also still in college so I havn't been able to commit as much time to recording as I'd have liked.

What I've noticed is that the term 'sound-engineer' is thrown around alot by under-achieving sixteen year olds who'd love to sit in front of a mixing desk and smoke weed all day. Of course the reality is totally different, and anyone who has taken sound-recording or music production seriously knows that it's such a difficult and technical craft to master. I think I'm at a stage where I've done all the freebies I need, or want to do - I've spent the last four years recording myself and friends and what's holding me back now is gear, not knowledge.

The problem is getting the balance right - it's completely against my nature to tell someone that I'm too busy to help them out, irrespective of the endeavour or the nature of my relationship with the person in question. But that's not really being fair to myself you know?

studiorat

seannash wrote: »

i got the impression it wasnt his livelyhood.thought it was just a hobby for the guy.if hes running a professional studio than yeah charge but i didnt get the impression he was.
if he was he wouldnt ask this question really.

I figured that alright, even so. There's so many guys out there with varying amounts of skill and gear where do you draw the line? When does it become pro?

We got to ask ourselves here too, is this guy any good? I do free gigs too like!!!
But apart from just doing something for a mate, you must ask is it actually worth doing? Artistically like?

Most regular sound engineers in Ireland, have a couple of hats that they wear, workwise. Live guys doing installations for example, recording guys doing live sound, education, the combinations are endless...

The way things are now, we are going to see more and more of a crossover between the different aspects both technical and artistic. I believe there will even be sound guys working with video and vice versa ! (I'm sure there's loads of sound engineers who'd love a photography gig now and again)

Now, when was the last time you saw a musician do a gig and not expect some money for it. ;o)

Savman

If you yourself can gain from it by trying new techniques you wouldn't have gotten to do otherwise, then freebie isn't out of the question.
If he just wants a studio boffin to be his knob twiddling lap dog, charge accordingly. tis easy, take each job on its own merit.

seannash

maybe im being a bit naive but i honestly still think if you help people out itll come back to you.if he dopes have a better budget for his next one and you did a great job i think hed come back to you.
hell tell people about you and word of mouth is huge.
but like i said maybe i have too much faith in people:)

TelePaul

Three tracks, numerous overdubs, seven hours of recording. And as he's walking out the door, he tries to throw a wad of notes in my hand - hundred quid I guess. But I said no. Because you bastards made me! :mad:

Thanks alot jerkwads!!!

dav nagle

Hi Telepaul,

You did the right thing but I just hope you don't get taken advantage because you are a good guy. I agree with 'Studio rat'. Often, people will see you are nice and get some sort of free help or work from you. That is fine but eventually it just might wear a little thin.

TelePaul

dav nagle wrote: »

Hi Telepaul,

You did the right thing but I just hope you don't get taken advantage because you are a good guy. I agree with 'Studio rat'. Often, people will see you are nice and get some sort of free help or work from you. That is fine but eventually it just might wear a little thin.

Well his parting shot today was "I'll be back Thursday to mix it with you". In alot of cases, people just get excited about their music and forget to consider the other people involved.

seannash

any chance of us hearing the final product man

studiorat

seannash wrote: »

any chance of us hearing the final product man

Please Nooooooo!!!!

TelePaul

studiorat wrote: »

Please Nooooooo!!!!

Why not??????????????

seannash

studiorat wrote: »

Please Nooooooo!!!!

yeah why not????

PaulBrewer

Grand a day, cash upfront.

That should scare him of an kill off this pointless thread!:D;)

PaulBrewer

Plus Vat.

frobisher

I would tell the guy that you don't have the experience to charge what your time really deserves but that you'll do it cheap as a result. As sei046 said, for the price of a SM57.

TelePaul

Here's a track I havn't really bothered messing with yet as I HATE the guitar.

www.soundclick.com/glasshouserecordings

It's "Done me Wrong"

TelePaul

Cmon cmon, tell me how much you hate it already.

fitz

The vocal's nice. She's got a very good voice.
Few mistakes here and there on the guitar part, but the playing has got character, and dynamic.
I can hear your room, but tbh, it sounds like the strings are the culprit. Definitely a little dull sounding. From the bending, I'd say they're a pretty light gauge too. See if they'll restring with a slightly heavier gauge of something phosphor-bronze. Get something really bright on there and you might be surprised how much it improves. How about trying a second mic on the guitar, over the shoulder maybe? Might not get any more level, but it's more guitar to add to the mix...

Seziertisch

Yeah, I know what you mean about the guitar, it seems kind of flat. What kind of mic were you using? And was it positioned appropriately? Depending on what you used, you could borrow another maybe more suitable mic and do a rerecord. Or even use a couple of mics for the rerecord, one up around the nut and another at the bridge. Read up a bit on miking acoustics online before you go at it again. That is what I would do, if it were my own track and I wasn't happy.

That said, it seems to be a pretty good performance, though, so that is something to consider.

You could try eq'ing the mid/top end to get it to stand out a bit more, although this could make it sound quite unnatural depending on how extreme you go at it. A bit of parallel compression might also work well to flesh out the body of the sound and give it a bit more presence in the mix. Doubling might also be another worthwhile approach (depending on the sound you are looking for) Which would still mean a rerecord and depending on the mic used it might not fix the shortcomings you are hearing.

Also, what kind of guitar was it? The main distinction you will notice between recording more affordable acoustics and more expensive ones is that the more expensive ones will offer a more even and pleasing sound across the frequency range. I have found that some guitars just have resonances or dropout at certain frequencies which might not be completely desirable. In the case of a solid performance with a really good guitar little enough needs to be done with it in terms of eq or whatever, it just has great presence.

That said I agree with the post above about the it having a nice enough vibe, so you're going to have to decide whether or not you can live with it.

TelePaul

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you can see what I mean about that guitar. I think they were new strings - this is why I was so perturbed by the finger-pad picking. As to the gauge, yeah most likely 12s. It's an Art Luthrie of some kind, guess it was around €400.

Normally I'd X/Y with two SDCs, or space at the bridge and fingerboard. But I only have two inputs on my soundcard - they wanted to record 'live', so I had to make do with an LDC for her vocals and one for the acoustic - about 8inches off the neck/body join.

I was since playing around with a freeware plug-in, Flux's Bittersweet 2. It's pretty good at managing audio transients and gave the guitar a bit more edge.

studiorat

TelePaul wrote: »

Cmon cmon, tell me how much you hate it already.

Well I find it quite boring actually, sounds like a million jazzy bluesy birds to me.

sei046

Im not sure the tune was the issue? I presume we are talking about the production. Well I personally think you did the right thing doing it for free. TBH I have spent seven hours scratching me arse over a bass drum EQ

TelePaul

studiorat wrote: »

Well I find it quite boring actually, sounds like a million jazzy bluesy birds to me.

Not sure what you mean - are you adverse to the song - lyrics/melody/ production/arrangement? - or the recording/mix?

studiorat

The song I suppose. A closer approach to with the vocal might have given it a warmer feel. Really, how the singer approaches the performance, I feel it's a bit over sung...

TelePaul

studiorat wrote: »

The song I suppose. A closer approach to with the vocal might have given it a warmer feel. Really, how the singer approaches the performance, I feel it's a bit over sung...

Well so long as it's not MY problem.... Trying to produce is very different to trying to track and mix (note that I say 'trying' in both cases).

i57dwun4yb1pt8

not bad , not bad at all,

I wont comment on the song etc , but a bit of eq and compression and it would be a good recording .

nice one

TelePaul

DaDumTish wrote: »

not bad , not bad at all,

I wont comment on the song etc , but a bit of eq and compression and it would be a good recording .

nice one

Cheers mate it means alot.

seannash

i liked it.
you already stated that your gear was a bit lacking and you only had two mics so of course theres going to be countless suggestions of ways you could have done it better.
you done a great job with what you had