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Quotas: Yay or Nay?

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Yeah, I'm all for Irish players being able to move abroad with no restrictions. Having them stuck over here would spell doom for our hopes to compete internationally. I can't understand why anyone on an Irish soccer forum would give a **** about the supposed plight of the English national team. However, to throw a dog a bone I'd note that:

    - English players who are good enough play in the premiership regularly;
    - The Championship surely compares favorably with the top to bottom standard and intensity of leagues like France, Belgium, Austria and isn't far off the likes of Portugal and Holland? I'm sure the foreigner : domestic player ratio is more agreeable at that level. And if a player tears it up there - the premiership comes calling;
    - From a national team perspective, 170 players active in the supposed "best league in the world" should provide a more than adequate player base for a senior international side. I cannot see how having more players playing in a division with diluted quality and less exposure to different footballing mentalities would solve their problems. What they need to do is just fix it so that they are no longer required to qualify / can play all their matches in Wembley. They'll be grand then; :rolleyes:


    On a broader political level, we live in a small island economy. While we have enjoyed raging success the past 10 years, our history is that of emigration to find improvement and opportunity in times when the "Celtic Tiger" did not exist. Those times may return and, in any case, our boom was latterly sustained by the availability of cheap labor from places like Eastern Europe, etc - where the prospect of taking non skilled retail jobs that we sniffed at represented progress for them. In short, the free and unfettered movement of workers is something that has benefited the majority of this forum enormously. I am against any measure that pushes away from that or would weaken our international team. This idea gets a thumbs down from me.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    Galvasean wrote: »
    The English press are such hypocrites. One minute they gloat about how the Premiership is the strongest league in the world. Then they complain about the amount of foreigners in the league. Well guess who makes the league so strong?

    Ronaldo, Drogba, Fabregas, Torres, etc. All very English names.
    What makes it so disturbing is that the advocates of the quota system seem to think that this will actually help the English team.

    I wonder, would Ashley Cole be as good a player as he is now if he had been spending all these years going up against David Bentley or Jermaine Pennant instead of Cristiano Ronaldo, or Rio Ferdinand going up against Shola Ameobi instead of Didier Drogba...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I would question how many English middle division clubs have better training facilites better than the top LoI clubs.

    I'm going to say the vast majority of them have better facilities - right down to the bottom of league two.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I can't understand why anyone on an Irish soccer forum would give a **** about the supposed plight of the English national team.

    :confused: I would have thought that was fairly obvious. Pretty much everyone that posts here supports an English team in some shape or form so it will affect their club.

    Those that don't support a team over there could be still affected by it through players not going to England due to lack of opportunities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I'm going to say the vast majority of them have better facilities - right down to the bottom of league two.

    I'm going to say you are wrong then.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    :confused: I would have thought that was fairly obvious. Pretty much everyone that posts here supports an English team in some shape or form so it will affect their club.

    Those that don't support a team over there could be still affected by it through players not going to England due to lack of opportunities.

    No, that wasn't what I meant. I understand why people here would discuss this. But don't understand why anyone here would actually agree with it and think it is a good idea for clubs to be forced to play more English players.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm all for Irish players being able to move abroad with no restrictions. Having them stuck over here would spell doom for our hopes to compete internationally.

    The best (ie the top 40 or so) would still move to England. Its the middle lot that I am talking about.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    In short, the free and unfettered movement of workers is something that has benefited the majority of this forum enormously. I am against any measure that pushes away from that or would weaken our international team. This idea gets a thumbs down from me.

    But there is not, nor ever has been, 'free and unfettered movement of workers'. We have draconian work permit and immigration policies.

    LoI teams cannot sign any player from outside the EU without them being regular internationalists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    No, that wasn't what I meant. I understand why people here would discuss this. But don't understand why anyone here would actually agree with it and think it is a good idea for clubs to be forced to play more English players.

    Because it would be good for the League of Ireland. And France, Holland, Poland etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I'm going to say you are wrong then.

    Sligo Rovers
    Finn Harps
    Cobh Ramblers
    Galway United
    Waterford
    Limerick
    Monagahan
    Bray Wanderers
    Shamrock Rovers
    Kildare County
    Athlone Town
    Wexford Youths
    Sporting Fingal

    You seriously saying those clubs are going to have better set ups than the league one / league two average? I'd imagine that the club with the best overall resources available is someone like UCD who can lump in on all of the stuff to hand at Belfield. And the bigger clubs that I haven't mentioned above probably only are on a par with the league one / league two average - if that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    But there is not, nor ever has been, 'free and unfettered movement of workers'. We have draconian work permit and immigration policies.

    LoI teams cannot sign any player from outside the EU without them being regular internationalists.

    Within the EU we have free movement of workers and people aside from exceptions regarding the last countries integrated. And the more movement between the EU and elsewhere the merrier I say - I'm sure Xavi himself would agree with that! ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    The best (ie the top 40 or so) would still move to England. Its the middle lot that I am talking about.

    The middle lot should be free to further their careers to the greatest extent and give themselves the best opportunities of getting in the right shop window and earning the most money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,097 ✭✭✭✭Tusky


    If the English players were good enough, they would be playing in the premier league. All this will do is drop the quality of the teams and league in general. Big no from me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Within the EU we have free movement of workers and people aside from exceptions regarding the last countries integrated. And the more movement between the EU and elsewhere the merrier I say - I'm sure Xavi himself would agree with that! ;)

    But its hardly 'free and unfettered'. Working in Europe can be extremely restrictive.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Sligo Rovers

    Shamrock Rovers
    Wexford Youths


    You seriously saying those clubs are going to have better set ups than the league one / league two average? I'd imagine that the club with the best overall resources available is someone like UCD who can lump in on all of the stuff to hand at Belfield. And the bigger clubs that I haven't mentioned above probably only are on a par with the league one / league two average - if that.

    How did Rovers end up on that list? Second to none facilities. As do Wexford.

    The standards in the LoI are far higher and more professional than a lot of you fans of overseas football seem to want to give it credit for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,065 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    The Italians had this sort of stystem in place in the 80s.I think it was a max of 3 players in the squad could be foreign.

    It would improve the game as the youth systems in England would be forced to produce quality players and those players would get a chance in the first team of their respective clubs.Look at the amount who come through United and never get a chance.Its the same with most clubs.They decide which foreigner they want to buy and sell their youth players.

    It also would potentially help the Irish game as many of Irish players never get a chance when they move to England.They end up playing in the lower leagues or not at all.If they all stayed in Ireland and got 1st team football, they might be better players.There are very few irish players playing in the Premiership as it is as most of them arent good enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    How did Rovers end up on that list? Second to none facilities. As do Wexford.

    The standards in the LoI are far higher and more professional than a lot of you fans of overseas football seem to want to give it credit for.

    Ok, Rovers and Wexford have great facilities relative to the other clubs. The rest on that list are rubbish. And relativity being what it is, it might be easy to overrate how good your setup is when you are comparing it to the likes of Limerick and Cobh.

    The point is that many of the players who go across to England will develop at a greater rate than if they remain in the EL. There is that percentage of teenagers who aren't good enough in the first place and would be better served staying here with a local club and finishing out their leaving cert. And that would improve things. But many of those teenagers don't exactly destroy the EL when they return to Ireland after all the doors over there shut on them. The academies will probably still take a "throw the kitchen sink at the fan" approach on some level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭estebancambias


    Actually why are people voting yes?(unless they think it will benefit Eircom league)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭dc69


    If this comes in then we are screwed.The Irish players will just be ditched in order for better players.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭estebancambias


    Not really. To the English we are part of the problem. We are foreigners as well. The point is Andy Reid will be replaced by a player probably less talented in him who is English.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,176 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    Yawn hate these recommendations from Blatter etc.

    10 English players started the CL final last week. There are plenty of good English talent out there if they are worried about the national team.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭dc69


    Not really. To the English we are part of the problem. We are foreigners as well.

    Exactly,we will be screwed.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,951 ✭✭✭DSB


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Sligo Rovers
    Finn Harps
    Cobh Ramblers
    Galway United
    Waterford
    Limerick
    Monagahan
    Bray Wanderers
    Shamrock Rovers
    Kildare County
    Athlone Town
    Wexford Youths
    Sporting Fingal

    You seriously saying those clubs are going to have better set ups than the league one / league two average? I'd imagine that the club with the best overall resources available is someone like UCD who can lump in on all of the stuff to hand at Belfield. And the bigger clubs that I haven't mentioned above probably only are on a par with the league one / league two average - if that.

    Do you actually have a clue about this or are you just wildly speculating? As mentioned above some of those sides have excellent set-ups well equal to their British counterparts.

    As for the foreigner rule, I don't think its feasible due to EU laws as mentioned already, and also I don't think its ethical. Football is employment, and I know full well if this happened in a shipping factory where there was a rule set that there had to be a certain level of Irish employees, there would be outrage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    DSB wrote: »
    Do you actually have a clue about this or are you just wildly speculating? As mentioned above some of those sides have excellent set-ups well equal to their British counterparts.

    It was mentioned that two of them do. I just listed clubs that have struggled somewhat financially or otherwise over the past few years. Or who haven't been full - time AFAIK. And I know from experience that the facilities at Sligo Rovers were disgraceful for a while.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,951 ✭✭✭DSB


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It was mentioned that two of them do. I just listed clubs that have struggled somewhat financially or otherwise over the past few years. Or who haven't been full - time AFAIK. And I know from experience that the facilities at Sligo Rovers were disgraceful for a while.

    Wouldn't use the full-time/part time thing as a legitimate measurement to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    DSB wrote: »
    Wouldn't use the full-time/part time thing as a legitimate measurement to be honest.

    Well, I did note that UCD probably have excellent facilities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    dc69 wrote: »
    Exactly,we will be screwed.

    How? Would love if this rule came back in and these players had to come back over to the EL. That would really give it the kickstart it would need.

    Won't happen anyways, with EU law and all that malarkey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭iregk


    Most have taken the "it will be bad for ireland" line and in a sence thats true when its comes to the english league. But hold on, has nobody thought that all the players we loose to english teams may stay or come back to Ireland and play for the IRISH Premier League? We do have one you know...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭dc69


    SantryRed wrote: »
    How? Would love if this rule came back in and these players had to come back over to the EL. That would really give it the kickstart it would need.

    Won't happen anyways, with EU law and all that malarkey.

    they would clearly end up in the chamiponship,the EL couldnt afford their wages tbh.

    And I dont think they would get the same thrill playing in front of 10 people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,714 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    iregk wrote: »
    Most have taken the "it will be bad for ireland" line and in a sence thats true when its comes to the english league. But hold on, has nobody thought that all the players we loose to english teams may stay or come back to Ireland and play for the IRISH Premier League? We do have one you know...

    And therefore they will be playing in a league where the depth of talent is currently the equivalent of the bottom half of league one / top half of league two. They will be playing infront of much smaller average attendances in a culture where there is less pressure to succeed. As such, they will not be as well prepared to contribute to a successful International side and participate in crunch qualifiers infront of large or hostile crowds.

    And while their involvement would help improve things over here to some extent - we're still likely to have a league that is much lower in terms of any measurement than the Championship. Doesn't sound awesome to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭dc69


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    And therefore they will be playing in a league where the depth of talent is currently the equivalent of the bottom half of league one / top half of league two. They will be playing infront of much smaller average attendances in a culture where there is less pressure to succeed. As such, they will not be as well prepared to contribute to a successful International side and participate in crunch qualifiers infront of large or hostile crowds.

    And while their involvement would help improve things over here to some extent - we're still likely to have a league that is much lower in terms of any measurement than the Championship. Doesn't sound awesome to me.

    If the EL was ever to get them back,it would require governement funding to pay their wages.The EL should be aiming for the scottish model,where you have 2 big teams and the rest not so good.thats the best we can hope for.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,921 ✭✭✭✭Pigman II


    They tried this back in the early 90's. Didn't make the England team any better and made English clubs in Europe whipping boys.

    Personally I think it's fine to let the best players in the world for the best teams in the world (whereever either set may come from). International football is dead anyway so it doesn't really matter where young players come from either. Might as well start following the NHL system where most of the players in the league are Canadian.


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