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Quotas: Yay or Nay?

  • 28-05-2008 07:07AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭


    So the [url='http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7417746.stm]BBC has released figures[/url] from its research into the amount of English players currently active in the Premiership. Here are some of the results -

    _44692259_english_premiership_466.gif

    _44692260_premiership_players_466.gif

    Basically it highlights the drop in the amount of 'homegrown' talent in the league (although Irish players are not included even though they are products of an academy).

    This graph below shows how the EPL compares roughly with other leagues -

    _44692280_english_non-english.gif

    As you can see, current World Champions Italy have an average of over seven Italians per club starting line up while EPL sides average less than four Englishmen.

    Blatter has said he wants to limit the amount of foreigners to five per starting eleven. Is this a good move? Will the likes of Arsenal be unfairly shafted? After all, they built up a strong young squad within the rules of the game and now it will be completely torn apart by such a drastic change. Personally I don't really mind it given the strength of City's academy and the homegrown players we already have in our squad.

    So what do you think?

    Do you support the implementation of a 'five foreigner' rule? 70 votes

    Yes
    0% 0 votes
    No
    27% 19 votes
    Yes but 5 foreigners is too little, make it 7/8
    61% 43 votes
    Atari Foreigner
    11% 8 votes


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,452 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    That there are so many foreign imports into the Premiership just highlights the fact that there aren't enough quality English players around. A Premiership swamped with foreigners isnt the cause of a lack of quality English players, it's a result of it.

    As a football fan, the bottom line will be the impact of any such moves on the quality of the football.

    If every team is to be required to field 6 English players, the big four will snap up the quality ones, leaving the other clubs even further behind.

    78 English players, the 78 best English players, turned out on the final day of the season, spread amongst nearly every team in the league. Were these rules introduced, we'd see undoubtedly see the Big Four with half of these players, and that in itself would lead to a more uncompetitive league. It would have a knock-on effect with the quality on display down the table - there'd be an inevitable drop in quality as the likes of Villa and Everton would have to look past the likes of Barry, Young, Osmon and so on.

    Then there's the undoubted negative impact that such a move would have on the Irish national team. Like it or not, the English league pyramid offers our players a more robust challenge than our own league, and to see Irish players' opportunities curtailed would be to the detriment of the national team.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    As a Villa fan, I say go for it!!! We had an average of over 6 english starters last season anyway!

    One a serious note, I think a 5 foreigner rule would be ridiculous in this day in age. Don't think it'll happen (anyway, I thought this wasn't possible with the EU and all that?). I think something like 3 english players would be a reasonable compromise. I pretty much agree with NBM actually, the overall standard of the league would suffer, and you would see the likes of Bent, Downing, Barry, Johnson etc being bought up by the big 4.

    /edit
    Actually just thinking, there seems to be more and more foreign kids being bought up by english clubs. I know Villa have been linked with/bought a good few in recent times. These are 15/16 year olds who are brought in for clubs youth acadamies. Maybe this is where the FA should be targeting. If there was a strict limit in the youth teams, this would allow the young english (and irish!) players to develop for longer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭iregk


    Its a strange one alright and I think given the politically correct world in which we live in now with the eu employment lays this is not workable. That said I do kinda agree with it.

    The graphs though don't tell the full story only one side. Ok take Italy, current world champions. Now take their starting 11 in teh WC final and tell me how many were playing in Italy at the time. I'd say possibly all 11. But they are a strange case.

    Now lets take say the previous 3 WC winners prior to Italy. Brazil, France, Brazil. How many of their starting 11's were actually playing in France and Brazil? Without looking into it, I'd say not many. So thats another angle on the argument.

    On the other side the likes of Arsenal are taking the foreigner rule to a whole new level. Not only is the first team swamped with them but the academy which was historically to breed young talent now has the most expensive youth money can buy from all around the world. They are a foreign club through and through. So a rule like this would bring them back to scratch. Is that fair?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    You are discussing quotas and noone has brought up EU law yet?
    Like it or not, any footballer who is an EU citizen can ply their trade anywhere in the EU and they have as much right as any Englishman to play Premiership football.

    It's an interesting topic but the EU will shoot it down before it gets anywhere.
    Work permits for Americans, Africans and Asians is a different topic but they already have to have criteria like international caps or exceptional ability and these have to be approved first.

    A no vote from me on this poll


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    micmclo wrote: »
    You are discussing quotas and noone has brought up EU law yet?
    Like it or not, any footballer who is an EU citizen can ply their trade anywhere in the EU and they have as much right as any Englishman to play Premiership football.

    It's an interesting topic but the EU will shoot it down before it gets anywhere.
    Work permits for Americans, Africans and Asians is a different topic but they already have to have criteria like international caps or exceptional ability and these have to be approved first.

    A no vote from me on this poll

    But no one is stopping them plying their trade and working in the UK. All that's being said is that they can't do it at the same time. No laws are being broken if Van Persie comes on for Adebayor at half time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭gucci


    Xavi6 wrote: »

    As you can see, current World Champions Italy have an average of over seven Italians per club starting line up while EPL sides average less than four Englishmen.
    I find that statistic really baffling, I cant think of any Italian INTERNATIONAL players playing in England?(Please someone correct me?) Which basically leads me to ask are all the foreign players necessary?
    Are some of them just easy options for clubs? Where an english/scotish/welsh/irish guy would do just as good of a job but any player who has a half decent season is overpriced and therefore the team choses Roberto Di Left-backio instead who is only 300k?
    As a football fan, the bottom line will be the impact of any such moves on the quality of the football.

    If every team is to be required to field 6 English players, the big four will snap up the quality ones, leaving the other clubs even further behind.
    Yeah I agree, any impact would be short-term! There would be a season or two maybe where the clubs with more english players would be better equipped to cope, but the richer clubs would just plunder these. Then the smaller clubs would be in constant transition, breeding players for the bigger clubs.

    I don't think there is an easy answer for this. The team I follow (Liverpool) used to have(and still do as the poll shows) alot of substandard players, and alot of those guys were "foreign" but there were enough of the home nation players who were crap too.
    Its not a simple answer that enforcing rules like this will make players perform better imo. It goes back to coaching from day 1, so that young players regardless of nationality can actually play football.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    gucci wrote: »
    Are some of them just easy options for clubs? Where an english/scotish/welsh/irish guy would do just as good of a job but any player who has a half decent season is overpriced and therefore the team choses Roberto Di Left-backio instead who is only 300k?

    Not so much easier but cheaper. How much did Rio Ferdinand cost? And how much did Kolo Toure cost? Or Vidic? Or Hyypia? It makes good business sense to buy foreign. If it didn't then they wouldn't do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    But no one is stopping them plying their trade and working in the UK. All that's being said is that they can't do it at the same time. No laws are being broken if Van Persie comes on for Adebayor at half time.

    Two words: Restrictive Practices

    I can't quote a specific law for your example but all the player has to do is claim they cannot practice their trade to the best of their ability and are not being afforded equal opportunities with their Engish teammates. Discrimination on the basis on nationality. It just isn't going to work and the FA or UEFA would be taken on if they tried this.

    The EU is like the Mafia, you don't **** with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    micmclo wrote: »
    Two words: Restrictive Practices

    I can't quote a specific law for your example but all the player has to do is claim they cannot practice their trade to the best of their ability and are not being afforded equal opportunities with their Engish teammates. Discrimination on the basis on nationality. It just isn't going to work and the FA or UEFA would be taken on if they tried this.

    The EU is like the Mafia, you don't **** with it.

    I know what you're saying but there's no way they would even consider bringing it if there wasn't some sort of loophole to exploit. Sure all they have to say is "Adebayor is in poor form so we rested him" or "We decided to save Van Persie until the defence was tired". There are any amount of excuses that could be used to get around it.

    They are still being paid the same, still train the same and are still given the opportunity to prove their worth to the first team. They are still competing for places, just less of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭gucci


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    Not so much easier but cheaper. How much did Rio Ferdinand cost? And how much did Kolo Toure cost? Or Vidic? Or Hyypia? It makes good business sense to buy foreign. If it didn't then they wouldn't do it.

    Yeah sorry thats what i meant, easier option is the cheaper one :) Ferdinand is one of the most insane transfer fees ever, no excuse me TWO of the most insane transfer fees ever! When you consider practically no other centre halfs move for over 10m (I can only think of Woodgate off the top of my head, who strangely enough is..........English!) (ok i forgot about Stam and a few more there)
    Rio is a good player and has improved, but a combined fee of something like 45 million if you take into account what both leeds and man u have paid for him is insane.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    I had thought of that but is Wenger supposed to come up with excuses for 3-4 players ever week? And then every manager is supposed to do the same?
    Of course you claim every week that certain foreign players were injured but you need all clubs to do this.

    So if it involves all clubs then that means meetings and it would be broken up by the EU the same way that monoplies and cartels are broken up. Pity they don't break up the cars sellers cartel in Ireland!

    It's a great thread btw, good points but I just don't see it happening

    I'm voting yes to Lisbon because I'm terrified of the consequences of voting no :eek:;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,452 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    Blatter has apparently consulted with various representatives of the EU, and he reports that they largely agree with the idea, and he is confident that an arrangement can be made.

    For what it's worth, Platini has described the scheme as unworkable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    micmclo wrote: »
    I'm voting yes to Lisbon because I'm terrified of the consequences of voting no :eek:;)

    Can you do me a favour and sum up the 'yes' and 'no' sides to Lisbon in a sentence or two? I've missed the whole thing and anything I try to read is littered with crappy personal and long winded opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    I posted in jest and I realy don't want this thread to go offtopic because of me.

    95% of what’s in the treaty is already in place, this just streamlines it and makes it more efficient.
    Ireland will lose some things like votes short-term but ultimately do you think it’s worth it long-term to have a stronger EU?
    I do, many don’t

    This is the soccer forum after all :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    micmclo wrote: »
    I posted in jest and I realy don't want this thread to go offtopic because of me.

    95% of what’s in the treaty is already in place, this just streamlines it and makes it more efficient.
    Ireland will lose some things like votes short-term but ultimately do you think it’s worth it long-term to have a stronger EU?
    I do, many don’t

    This is the soccer forum after all :)

    Ok I'm still lost but cheers anyway. I thought it might have something to do with the topic and didn't want to be in the dark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    No, it has very little to do with this topic at all. The laws about EU citizens working in other countries are in place for years though they sometimes change

    Sure everyone has heard of the Bosman ruling and that was decided by the EU as you probably already know


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    Quite simply, it is a terrible idea.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,606 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    As a matter of interest, how many italian internationals start for Inter Milan, champs for the last 3 years running. I don't think they have many, do they?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,820 ✭✭✭grames_bond


    tbh a five foreigner rule can be construed (sp??) as discrimination couldnt it?! and anyway the more quality players the greater the league and the more satisfying when you do well!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    i prefer the UEFA proposition. 'homegrown' players. seems fairer, still places need for the clubs to ensure they have good academies and youth setups but doesn't discriminate. I think if this were enforced you might as a side effect see more native players coming through as it places more emphasis and pressures on the youth setup.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Evil_Clown


    If England had qualified for the Euros would that article have been the headline on the BBC sport website for 2 days ?

    There were 10 English players in the Champions League final between 2 english clubs would that have happened if they did not have so many quality foreign players in their midst pushing the standards of the League in which they play to probably the best in the world
    I would be against quotas, how many players would we as premiership fans have missed out on if they existed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭gucci


    Tauren wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, how many italian internationals start for Inter Milan, champs for the last 3 years running. I don't think they have many, do they?

    Very true, I think when they played Liverpool in Champions league, Materatzzi was the only Italian in the starting XI and i think they had only Toldo on the the bench?
    i prefer the UEFA proposition. 'homegrown' players. seems fairer, still places need for the clubs to ensure they have good academies and youth setups but doesn't discriminate. I think if this were enforced you might as a side effect see more native players coming through as it places more emphasis and pressures on the youth setup.

    It might lead to more home grown players, or it might also increase the "live-trade" of young footballers, like big clubs moving for 14 year olds all over the place. I know obviously it happens with Irish players moving to the UK at an early age too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,077 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    Quite simply, it is a terrible idea.

    Says the Arsenal fan :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Won't happen, shouldn't happen. Certainly within the EU players can and should be able to play wherever they can.

    Would a quota actually make English players more expensive?

    Mike.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    Says the Arsenal fan :pac:
    Says the football fan!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    micmclo wrote: »

    Sure everyone has heard of the Bosman ruling and that was decided by the EU as you probably already know

    No, it was decided by the European Court of Justice.

    I support this from a narrow and selfish point of view.

    5 foreigners in British teams restricts the amount of Irish playing over there, which means the LoI becomes more attractive and it helps start a virtous circle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    The English press are such hypocrites. One minute they gloat about how the Premiership is the strongest league in the world. Then they complain about the amount of foreigners in the league. Well guess who makes the league so strong?

    Ronaldo, Drogba, Fabregas, Torres, etc. All very English names.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    mike65 wrote: »
    Won't happen, shouldn't happen. Certainly within the EU players can and should be able to play wherever they can.

    Why? Work permits and quotas apply in various industries and differ in various EU countries. Why not football?

    It is more likely that a certain % of the playing staff must be domestic as opposed to the starting 11, but there is no law to prevent this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    5 foreigners in British teams restricts the amount of Irish playing over there, which means the LoI becomes more attractive and it helps start a virtous circle.
    But wont that have a negative affect on the Irish international team? When players move to England they can access better training facilities and in theory become better players sooner.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Galvasean wrote: »
    But wont that have a negative affect on the Irish international team? When players move to England they can access better training facilities and in theory become better players sooner.

    the top EPL players will stay, the fringe ones drop a division etc and most of the League One players will stay at home. Wages are the same anyway.

    I would question how many English middle division clubs have better training facilites better than the top LoI clubs.


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