Broadband ISP taken too much by direct debit

Mollywolly

Looking for a little bit of advice. I've got into a situation where my ISP has taken 3 months line rental more than he should have done. I've tried emailing him but he doesn't respond, just ignores it. I've tried phoning him but he keeps saying that "he'll sort it". This has been going on since January 2008 when I had to email him four times to tell him that the direct debit hadn't been activated.! The amount in question isn't a lot - 105 euro - but it's the principle of the thing.

I'm now at the stage where I've gone to Comreg to complain but he's ignoring them too and I still haven't received any refund.

By the way, this isn't one of the big guys. This is just a one-man band who you would think would like to give you good service so that you can recommend him.

Comreg have escalated the problem (whatever that means) and I now have to wait until the end of this week to see if my ISP contacts me. The question is: what do I do if he doesn't? On past experience he won't get in touch so I'm getting myself prepared!

Thanks a mill.

Nody

Only thing coming to mind would be small claims court (but be ready to require the police to get the cash from him afterwards).

Mollywolly

Thanks for your quick reply Nody. Small claims would probably be my last option but this has been dragging on for too long and I'm just getting fed up of the whole thing. Somehow, knowing this man, even the police would have trouble getting the money out of him. Hey ho.........!

Slice

If the amount taken was more than what was advised by your ISP then approach your bank and tell them that the ISP has broken the terms of the direct debit scheme and that they should seek an indemnity of the amount taken. Your bank should, reluctantly, credit you back for the amount.

Mollywolly

Hi Slice. Actually, the first call I made was to my bank, expecting that they would say,"oh yes, the direct debit guarantee, leave it with us and we'll sort it". What I actually got was, "oh no, it doesn't cover your situation so we can't help, sorry". I was a bit confused so got on to the consumer ombudsman, who pointed me in the direction of Comreg.

Oh, and the ironic thing is that I'm scared to cancel the direct debit in case it affects my situation so it keeps going out every month. I don't want him to be able to turn round and say that I refused to pay so I broke the contract. Catch 22...I think so.

Phaetonman

Cancel direct debit and it will be sorted very quickly.

Keano

Contact your bank and ask them why they allowed too much to be taken from your account when the direct debit mandate clearly stated a certain amount. That should sort it. AFAIK every time a direct debit is taken from your account the company receiving it has to apply for that amount each and every month.

Direct Debit

Although the above link discusses UK institutions the same rules apply in Ireland.

Mollywolly

Because the case is now with Comreg, I'm reluctant to cancel the DD just in case the ISP can turn round and say that I broke the contract so therefore I'm not entitled to refund. Sounds ludicrous, but what can I do?

As far as the DD guarantee, it would seem that my case falls outside of this because the ISP failed to collect the DD until I noticed it some four months after it should have started. Then it took two months for me to get hold of someone to implement the darn thing, then, when they did, they took 9 months payments instead of 6, which is the amount I'm trying to get back. (By the way, having 350 euro taken out of your account in one month when you're only expecting 35 to go out is a bit of a bummer )

Anyhow, I'll be ringing Comreg again later to see if they've had any success getting hold of my ISP. Somehow, I doubt it, but thanks to all for your advice.

cgarvey

You might want to get on to IPSO.ie for advive on the (Irish) DD scheme, but the way the guarantee reads contradicts what you've been told. You're entitled to a timely notification of the charge to be taken.

Unless, you're meant to prepay a number of months in advance? Is the rental quarterly in advance, by any chance?

Mollywolly

I'll check out IPSO, thanks for that. I didn't get any notification that they would be taking so much at once. I had allowed for 210 euro to be taken out, but 350 was pushing it a bit!

I pay rental monthly, I can't even use quarterly rental as an excuse.

I have been in touch with Comreg again and, surprise surprise, he's not got back to them so they have to re-escalate it. The problem is that they are trying to email him and he has told me in the past that he doesn't respond to emails. An ISP who doesn't respond to emails..............strange...........and very, very annoying!

The next step is either small claims court, go to my solicitor, or complain to the person who put me in touch with this man/company (who just happens to be our local councillor!). Talk about complicated............!!!

cgarvey

Well if you're (meant to be) paying monthly, then the notice will have deemed to be served because it's a fixed fee. So, they don't have to send a bill out each month in advance.

However, they can't just take a few months in advance either (for the same reason.. it's a pre-agreed fixed monthly subscription). Therefore, you haven't received timely notice, and they are, in my opinion, in breach of the Direct Debit, something which your bank should rectify under the Direct Debit Guarantee. Either your bank is talking nonsense (and in my experience most customer-facing bank-tellers do), or the DD Guarantee has changed significantly (and IPSO will put you on the right track there).

I'd detail, in writing, to your bank, that you wish to be refunded the difference under the DD Guarantee, and fully document the expected amount, the number of months and the difference which they took (and were not entitled to take). Address it to your branch manager, making sure to mention the DD Guarantee (quoting from the guarantee text on IPSO website for good measure).

It looks like the bank are confused (or just plain wrong) about the lack of collection of payment to date interfering with your protection, under the DD scheme, in the event of an incorrect amount being collected. I.e. you can't dispute the 6 months (if that's what was due) being collected at once, just the additional months for which you don't have notice for. Hope that makes sense!

Mollywolly

cgarvey wrote: »

Well if you're (meant to be) paying monthly, then the notice will have deemed to be served because it's a fixed fee. So, they don't have to send a bill out each month in advance.

However, they can't just take a few months in advance either (for the same reason.. it's a pre-agreed fixed monthly subscription). Therefore, you haven't received timely notice, and they are, in my opinion, in breach of the Direct Debit, something which your bank should rectify under the Direct Debit Guarantee. Either your bank is talking nonsense (and in my experience most customer-facing bank-tellers do), or the DD Guarantee has changed significantly (and IPSO will put you on the right track there).

I'd detail, in writing, to your bank, that you wish to be refunded the difference under the DD Guarantee, and fully document the expected amount, the number of months and the difference which they took (and were not entitled to take). Address it to your branch manager, making sure to mention the DD Guarantee (quoting from the guarantee text on IPSO website for good measure).

It looks like the bank are confused (or just plain wrong) about the lack of collection of payment to date interfering with your protection, under the DD scheme, in the event of an incorrect amount being collected. I.e. you can't dispute the 6 months (if that's what was due) being collected at once, just the additional months for which you don't have notice for. Hope that makes sense!

You make perfect sense but I had another unsatisfactory conversation with my bank yesterday who said that because I had given authorisation for the direct debt, then it makes no difference what that amount is! It can be 35 or 350 - the bank are still honoured to pay it and I can't have it back.

I even quoted the relevant text from the IPSO website but she simply dismissed it and said that the bank could do nothing. I feel as if I'm being fobbed off on all sides and it's really getting to me now. When hubby came home yesterday, he saw the state of me and got on the phone to said ISP and blasted him. Such that the ISP has promised to hand-deliver the refund this morning.

Sorry......was that a pig I saw going past the window then???

cgarvey

Mollywolly wrote: »

who said that because I had given authorisation for the direct debt, then it makes no difference what that amount is! It can be 35 or 350 - the bank are still honoured to pay it and I can't have it back.

Only true if you've received notice of the amount, which you haven't. The bank are wrong to state that. That's exactly why there's a Direct Debit Guarantee.

I'd be asking to speak to the manager at this stage (or put it in writing that you want the money back within 10 working days, and detail the reason).

There are a lot of myths about DD not helped by IPSO and certainly not helped by banks (who allow big originators to re-instate DD contracts with no verbal or written agreement, and whose staff clearly have NO IDEA what a DD involves, a lot of the time).

One thing is clear, though. It is the bank's responsibility to refund you the money. Very annoying!!!! Hope you get it sorted!

Mollywolly

Quick update. Comreg still not heard from the company. Bank still refusing to refund the money so have emailed IPSO to see where I stand. Spoke to the man in charge at the company yesterday who, when I asked him for some action instead of promises, promptly hung up on me! How's that for customer service :eek:

I am now thinking of naming and shaming, but I've seen how he reacts to that on other forums. This man is just a bully and I've never come across service like this in my life. If I behaved this way in my own job - which is customer-facing - I'd be sacked. He seems to think he's invincible but there has to be a way to sort this out amicably, doesn't there?

Yours, in despair.............:(

Kimbot

Molly, maybe someone else that knows this ISP can help you out??

To me it sounds like they really don't care what you say because they already have your money.
Personally I would walk into their place of business and demand for it to be sorted out there and then or I wasn't leaving. I had the same issue with a local ISP a while ago, went into the shop and kicked up a fuss and it was sorted straight away with an apology aswell.

daheff

I wouldnt worry about cancelling the direct debit. If they have not acted in accordance with the contract they have provided you then THEY are in breach of contract. Tell your bank that they are also in breach of the direct debit agreement. Ask for details on how to make a formal complaint to the bank. If they refuse to allow you/fob you off then make a complaint to the Financial services regulator (http://www.itsyourmoney.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&pID=96&nID=147&aID=0)

and best of luck getting your money back!

Mollywolly

Jonny, you're soooo right about them not being bothered because they have my money. I've been getting that feeling for a few months now! As for going to his premises, he only seems to have a serviced office where no one ever answers the phone! Obviously, I should have done some research before signing up with this cowboy

Sponge Bob

Its quite possibly because they are going bankrupt, cancel the DD right now !!

Mollywolly

Right. Quick update. Was at our solicitor about other stuff and mentioned the problems we were having and wondered if they could write to the ISP or bank requesting refund on our behalf. They explained that the charge would be almost as much as what we're owed, so advised against it, but did say that they felt the bank should refund it under the DD guarantee scheme. Otherwise, if we felt strongly enough, we could put in a personal injury claim to the bank/ISP because of the stress/time/money we've spent on various phone calls trying to get this sorted. This is a last resort, of coure.

So, tried once again with the bank. Got nowhere, so went to their customer complaint department who investigated and decided that the bank was not responsible and that I should chase the ISP. Aaaaarrrggghhh :eek: This was not what I wanted to hear so said that I would be speaking to the Financial Services Regulator or Ombudsman and was told that I would be within my rights to do so and they even gave me their contact details.

More worryingly, it appears that once anyone signs a direct debit for what you think is a fixed amount, the bank treats it as a "variable" amount and will hand out any amount that is requested. Oh, as long as you have enough money in your account though. It means that if you have a direct debit for 50 euro say, but there's a slip of the finger and an application goes to your bank for 5,000 euro, the bank will pay it. There is no due diligence or care shown by the bank to protect you - their customer - from errors like this. Very scary thought that, so much so that I'm looking at changing our direct debits to standing orders so that we have more conrol over them. .

As for the ISP, well it's back to Comreg to see if they have heard from him yet. They emailed them two weeks ago telling them to contact me direct but so far I've heard nothing. I have actually cancelled the DD to the ISP so he won't be getting any more out of me

Very disappointed all round and getting very fed up of the whole thing.

cgarvey

In fairness the DD scheme is for variable amounts (i.e. utility bills).. that's most of the beauty of it.

The defence (which your bank has just laughed at) is that if there is an error in the bill, you're entitled (under the DD Guarantee) to a speedy refund. Of course, it's not defined what speedy is, nor what happens if it forces you overdrawn (who pays the fees?).. all of which doesn't make any difference if your bank chooses to ignore the DD Guarantee.

I'd be demanding to see the manager in person, TBH (dunno if that's practical in your case), and present him with the facts with paper trail. If he takes the same line, I'd be closing my account there and then.

I can forgive a teller not getting it right, but not going off to check it (after you querying it) and still coming back with misinformation.

Mollywolly

Thanks cgarvey for all your help and information you've given me during this process. It's really appreciated. Could you please be my customer service person and sort this for me????

Actually, the customer service guy I spoke to was at their head office in Dublin, so I went further than my branch and still they're fobbing me off. I do appreciate that a DD can be variable (that's how I pay my mobile bill) but it seems to be inexcusable that any company can take any amount of money without some sort of prior authorisation. If I had received a letter telling me that they were going to apply for 350 euro, I could have stopped it and made them take the right amount but I didn't get anything. So annoying.......

As for Comreg, I'm beginning to lose count of the times I've called them and they have "escalated" the case - whatever that means. I get told the same thing every time I call and the same thing happened again today. I was almost rushed off the phone! It's very difficult to get them to take some sort of stand with the ISP and get him to clean up his act. Am I being dense, but isn't that what Comreg is supposed to do....regulate telecomms and broadband providers?

It looks like I'll be going to the Financial Services Regulator/Ombudsman after all. If only to get the bottom of the so-called "Direct Debit Guarantee" which seems to protect banks, and not us poor consumers.

seagull

It might be worth cancelling the DD and seeing how long it takes for him to disconnect your broadband connection. It might serve as a wake-up call to him that you're getting serious. Best case is that he just lets it ride until you've had what you're owed.

And pigs might fly :rolleyes:

Mountjoy Mugger

mollywolly wrote:

I have actually cancelled the DD to the ISP so he won't be getting any more out of me.

Already done, it seems.

DjDangerousDave

Cancle The DD as you have already done and move your business to someone else.

Onikage

Mollywolly wrote: »

I do appreciate that a DD can be variable (that's how I pay my mobile bill) but it seems to be inexcusable that any company can take any amount of money without some sort of prior authorisation. If I had received a letter telling me that they were going to apply for 350 euro, I could have stopped it and made them take the right amount but I didn't get anything.

I bet your phone provider sends you a bill before charging you or at least lets you see it online. Direct Debit Originators don't need authorisation to charge variable amounts but they do need to notify you. Failing that, they are in breach of the Direct Debit Scheme rules.

From http://www.ipso.ie/index.php?Itemid=172&id=35&option=com_content&task=view

The collection of a Direct Debit
The Originator will inform the payer in advance of the amount and date of the collection. The minimum advance notice is 14 days unless the Originator and Payer agree a shorter period. The notice can take the form of an invoice or a one-off notice detailing a series of payments over a period of time.

Mollywolly

Would you believe that I emailed IPSO a couple of weeks ago about this situation and am still waiting for a reply? I explained the situation and asked them to confirm if the guarantee applied, but obviously they're very, very busy and can't be bothered to deal with the likes of me!

A letter went off to the Financial Services Ombudsman yesterday so no doubt it will be a few weeks before I hear from them.

The saga continues.....................

the_syco

Mollywolly wrote: »

By the way, this isn't one of the big guys. This is just a one-man band who you would think would like to give you good service so that you can recommend him.

This wouldn't be crosscountry broadband? The satellite one?

cgarvey

Mollywolly wrote: »

Could you please be my customer service person and sort this for me????

Oh heavens, no. I'd fall at the first hurdle after losing my temper!

Mollywolly wrote: »

Actually, the customer service guy I spoke to

Stop there! Seek a phone call, or meeting, with the branch manager (it might take a while). Ask him to put it in writing, if you need to.

Mollywolly wrote: »

it seems to be inexcusable that any company can take any amount of money without some sort of prior authorisation

Illegal too. However, you are granting authorisation on approving the DD. By way of comforting you, the DD Guarantee is meant to protect you from rogue originators and nasty surprises. It's this same Guarantee that has completely failed you. I'd ring IPSO. They've been helpful enough on the phone, for me, in the past.

Mollywolly wrote: »

As for Comreg,

Don't bother. ComReg are a complete waste of time. I'm not sure consumer billing issues fall under their remit anyway, but even if it did, they still would be of NO help whatsoever. They've never fined eircom for the very many anti-competitive practices that are well-documented, despite having the power to. They're not going to fine some local ISP, even if this was within their remit.

Mollywolly wrote: »

If only to get the bottom of the so-called "Direct Debit Guarantee" which seems to protect banks, and not us poor consumers.

It does. Even worse, the larger orignators (the ones who can setup a DD using voice authorisation, rather than anything in writing) are the same ones who have cozy relationships with the banks (being big customers), so when you cancel a DD, NTL, ericom and the ESB have all been known to re-establish the DD without ANY authorisation.

The DD scheme is a mess, because of all the ambiguity and because it heavily favours the originator. It could easily be fixed up if IPSO could be bothered with a few simple rules that cost nothing.

Anyway bank manager, IPSO and then the Fin Omb would be my order were I you.

Given how long it has gone on now, have any more DD demands been presented (or is the lone ranger just taking off the balance he took)? When do you get to the point where you start to owe again, I mean?

Gotta admire your persistence!