What's all this then?

Grizzly 45

Folks a question for you.
Recently in two gun dealers when buying ammo for my 9mm,after handing them my FAC both of them photocopied my liscense!! Then added the revelant info into the dealers ammo book.
Dealers are in two seperate parts of Munster.
Is this some sort of new regulation that has been brought in by the DOJ/Gardai,and no one informed us? Or is there a less sinister reason?
Is there anyone,first off whom has had this one happend to as well?
I would be greatly concerned on a few grounds of this practise,as;

1]There is now a photocopy of my liscense flying around in a dealer with my personal vital details of my addressand firearm on it.Not that dealers are hopefully not going to leave this sort of info around.But as we all know paperwork can be "lost" in an office situation easily enough.So one would dread to think of a file of photocopied liscenses going AWOL without somone noticing.:eek:.

2] ASFIK under DPA legislation taking personal information without good reason and by non qualified personel without secured storage of such is a no no!ASFIK ammo sales should only be logged in the dealer ammo book.
Basically, are dealers allowed to do such?And what is the procedure for them srtoring this kind of pretty dangerous info in the wrong hands?

3] Yeah,should have asked.But this is the second time and the 3rd time I will unless anyone else has a logical explanation?

It wasn't me!

Hmm. Well, when I collected my rifle, my FAC was photocopied and filed. Thought nothing of it at the time personally.

Bananaman

I know that the firearms dealer I deal with copies the FAC when anyone collects a firearm

I have no problem with it.

B'Man

Sparks

And every time I've ever bought ammo, the dealer's had a photocopy of my licence. I'd imagine it's so he could later show it to the Gardai during an audit to show that he had checked that the person buying the ammunition not only had a licence, but a licence for that calibre and amount.

Grizzly 45

Surely Sparks,if they are doing an audit.Thats what the ammo sales log is for??
Again ,if you are collecting a sold firearm,isnt that what the sales book of Firearms is for as well??Name address,lic no is in both along with ammo quantity.Just seems to be a doubling up of paperwork for whatever reason??

It wasn't me!

I think it's not a bad idea. The local dealer then has you on file, knows your certificates and can look them up for Gardai or even for you, should you forget or lose yours, and everything's still neat and secure.

meathstevie

Have to agree with you Grizzly. Except the number of the FAC and the type and quantity of ammo bought there should be no other details recorded to satisfy a Garda audit.

Sparks

The ammo sales log notes the cert number and other details Grizzly, yes, but the photocopy is the dealer's proof that he carried out due diligence in inspecting that cert, that he didn't just write down a number called out to him over the phone.

meathstevie

True as well Sparks but I've never met a firearms dealer who'll sell ammo to someone he sees for the first time without having a look at the cert.

Sparks

And taking a photocopy of the cert is how the dealer can then objectively prove to the Gardai that your high opinion of him is warranted, meath

LadyTBolt

Grizzly, why did you not just ask the dealers why they were taking a copy of your cert at the time they did it? I'm sure they would have been more than happy to explain the procedure to you.

Personally I think it's for audit and security purposes so they can back up who they are selling the ammo to as to account for where their stock is going should they ever be checked by Gardai/DoJ. I believe it's very responsible of dealers to do this. In the past I've purchased ammo from a dealer who never even asked as much as my name let alone for my FAC.

Grizzly 45

As I said in my original post; yeah should have asked,but it was the first time with this paticular dealer.So maybe I think this guy has some new filing procedure,that anybody new he takes a PC,so he has their details should they return sans their cert to buy ammo.
BUT it was with the second dealer with whom I had already been,albiet appx 12 months ago,and he recognised me,yet he PC my cert as well.That got me thinking,unfortuneatly 24 hrs after the fact:o...
Fine,if this is for an audit,which I feel is dubious practise at best,as the law requires a sales book for ammo and a seperate one for firearms.Why now al this extra info as well. ?

BUT I am worried that all these PC certs are lying around in a dealer,where with human error they can be nicked,lost,chucked out in the rubbish, photocopied with a camera phone by somone who is less than honest ,or a peed off staff member,and flogged to a criminal type.
We are always being encouraged not to leave personal info lying around or in our rubbish.And then we have people PCing a pretty important piece of personal info ,and there seems to be no[1] procedure of safe storage [2]accessibility by unauthorised persons to this info [3] procedures for storage and disposal afterwards[4] how long this is supposed to be held by the dealer.
As somone who has to deal with personal info I have to sign up to the DPA,and I have to submit a pretty detailed,who what when why how document as who has access to personal info.So I am just wondering is this also a DPA remit as your FAC would be as critical as your bank acc details.

meathstevie

LadyTBolt wrote: »

Grizzly, why did you not just ask the dealers why they were taking a copy of your cert at the time they did it? I'm sure they would have been more than happy to explain the procedure to you.

Personally I think it's for audit and security purposes so they can back up who they are selling the ammo to as to account for where their stock is going should they ever be checked by Gardai/DoJ. I believe it's very responsible of dealers to do this. In the past I've purchased ammo from a dealer who never even asked as much as my name let alone for my FAC.

Highly irresponsable individual to say the least.

Grizzly 45

Who?Me?Lady T Bolt?Or the dealer in T bolts post?

mildot

Hi
The reason is quite simple.... in the case of full bore pistol ammo dealers are only allowed to import 2.5 times the amount of licensnses they have submitted to the DOJ, so delaers are always trying to build up their stocks, In all fairness it should have been expalined to you though !

derek_g34

I think its actually got to do with the amount of 9mm ammo that a dealer can order. The more license 9mm license holders that he has on his books, the more he can order.

Grizzly 45

Cheers Mildot.That clears up that abit.Do the Photo copies go up then to DOJ with the ammo amount import application or what is done with them do you know be any chance?

mildot

Hi Grizzly 45

The certs are sent just the once, the DOJ the do the maths on the amount of ammo you can import and will only grant that amount bases on a 2.5 times factor.

mildot

Should also mention... when the certs expire it all starts again... dealers have re send current certs for new year

Vegeta

Thanks for clearing that up folks

was thinking myself it might have to do with getting restricted firearms dealers license proving number of sales n all that

meathstevie

meathstevie wrote: »

Highly irresponsable individual to say the least.

Sorry for the confusion, the firearms dealer of course.

a4775

meathstevie wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion, the firearms dealer of course.

well its not really, every dealer i know does it
you have to keep a record of every bullet or shell that goes in and out the door
and you also have to have a record of the names, addresses, cert numbers and pulse ids of the people buying them
taking a copy of the licence is the easiest way to do it
the guards regularly do spot checks to make sure you are selling to someone without a licence

its a bit stupid though since you have no way of knowing if the person in the shop is the real owner of the licence

what do you think a person would do with the information on a licence anyway?
i cant think of how it could be used

IRLConor

a4775 wrote: »

what do you think a person would do with the information on a licence anyway?
i cant think of how it could be used

They could use the details to go to the license holder's house and rob the firearms/ammunition.

Provided the dealer is careful with the license details there's no problem.

In fairness, the best thing to do would be blank out the name and address on the copy - you still have the details that the guards would use but nothing that would help a thief.

a4775

IRLConor wrote: »

They could use the details to go to the license holder's house and rob the firearms/ammunition.

Provided the dealer is careful with the license details there's no problem.

lets be realistic about it though, if a guy wants to rob a shotgun, he isnt going to rob a list of licences first
im sure there are easier ways to get a gun fast

IRLConor

a4775 wrote: »

lets be realistic about it though, if a guy wants to rob a shotgun, he isnt going to rob a list of licences first
im sure there are easier ways to get a gun fast

Oh yeah, definitely. If they've broken into a firearms dealer's place there are probably juicier things for them to steal.

That said, thefts of firearms do happen and it's worth while being careful.

Sparks

To be fair, if they're breaking into the dealers, they're not coming after your cert. Why would they need to, given where they'd be at that point?

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair, if they're breaking into the dealers, they're not coming after your cert. Why would they need to, given where they'd be at that point?

Not wanting to play paranoid pete here, but if there are stacks of certs lying around dealers, then it is possible that they will fall into the wrong hands and then the local mafia will have a list of where all of the local guns are, and how much ammo is liable to be with them.

As I said earlier, its very easy to blank out the name / address bit which leaves the dealer and guards with all of the necessary info but if these papers do go missing, then no one gains.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair, if they're breaking into the dealers, they're not coming after your cert. Why would they need to, given where they'd be at that point?

Dealer's office != Dealer's secure storage

It's a small threat, but since it's trivial to defend against I don't see why you shouldn't. I doubt anyone would break into a dealer looking for copies of certs but they could be taken as an opportunistic sideline to some other crime.

Sparks

Lads, the thought of some criminal element breaking into a dealers in order to find your cert in order to then find and break into your house and steal your rifle is just too far-fetched.
We've seen criminals break into dealers. They then rob the dealers, who have far more firearms and ammunition than any one shooter would. Even the National Crime Prevention Unit, the single most paranoid-sounding group within the Powers That Be that I've ever heard on the topic, say that the vast majority of all thefts of firearms from shooters are opportunistic in nature - someone left a firearm lying about and the burglar who was after the silverware snagged the shotgun at the same time.

Sparks

(and yes, the sole exception to this would be pistols where the dealers aren't permitted to keep stock, but even then, who's going to go to all that trouble when you can buy one "from a bloke in a pub" or pick one up from a drugs shipment for far less trouble?)

mildot

TBH I think ppl are frettin a bit to much over a copy of a cert being kept by RFDs.... but surley the prize for scumabgs intent on stealing information would be the register (book)of sales itself, which contains all info as displayed on the certs anyhow.... most dealers store these registers in the vaults or gunrooms they own. The bigger unseen danger is dealers who keep electronic records of certs ie scanned images and do not protect themselves from computer fraud... Information is valuable and can be sold to the scumbags who cant use a computer !

Grizzly 45

True,it is unlikely that if you are knocking off a dealer that you are unlikely to make off with the dealers records.However,who else has acess to this file???? EG you have a less than honest employee who decides to make a few quid on the side flogging off this info to the local scumbag?? A lot safer and easier than trying to knock off ammo or firearms.And pretty untraceable as well.

Lets face it the average Irish FAC isnt exactly the most unforgeable document out there either.
Nothing to stop anyone with a good computor from running up a good likeness and adding your info and going off and buying a fair bit of ammo.
I wouldnt like to have to be the first here to say "told you so" if one day it does come out that this info from certs were misused.Yes the info is stored in both books,so why does it have to be this personal security breach be tolerated until somthing goes wrong??

Mildot is right.There is more of a chance of people losing this info thru it becoming electroniclly stored than written down.Not only that if you store this info electronically and are not DPA compliant you will be in trouble as well with the data protection comissioner,and are leaving yourself open to a civil lawsuit from the person whose data you lost.

Sparks

Are there any cases where any of this has ever happened?

Our man in Havana

I have heard an anecdotal story of one case where a register was stolen and houses were broken into afterwards.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Are there any cases where any of this has ever happened?

Not yet...Doesn't mean it wont ever never happen.:eek:

Why is it a problem to close a loophole before it could become a problem for us all??

Sparks

Bond-007 wrote: »

I have heard an anecdotal story of one case where a register was stolen and houses were broken into afterwards.

Was it verified that that was what happened?

patbundy

cos grizzly thats not the irish way of do things.the culture we have is to closes the gate after the horse has bolted

Our man in Havana

All I can say it was in Tipperary and it did happen.

patbundy

there was a .270 rifle recovered in limerick awhile ago,where did this rifle come from? these people wouldnt bring that kind of firearm in with their drugs

a4775

i know a guy who had his two guns stolen
he didnt know they were stolen though, until the guards called to the house to tell him that hsi shotgun was used in a robbery

apparently he had the guns just sitting under his bed, and the babysitter took them one night and gave them to her boyfriend

also, i have seen on my travels, a beautiful 20g silver pigeon that was cut down and made into a sawn off
whoever did it finished it off nicely too, not the usually scrappy job

there are lads who will steal guns anyway, no matter if there are licences floating about or wether you have the guns in cabinets
i think the safest way to store a gun is to break it down and keep the two parts in separate areas of the house

Grizzly 45

patbundy wrote: »

there was a .270 rifle recovered in limerick awhile ago,where did this rifle come from? these people wouldnt bring that kind of firearm in with their drugs

This would be the second one then...Somone must be a 270 short around here.

a4775 +1 On the break it down advice. Seems to be recommended procedure nowadays,wether U have a cabinet or not.Store one half in the cabinet and the other halves somwhere else in your abode.?

foxshooter243

Guy up our way was working in his shed one evening and a lad walked up behind him and put a gun to his head and told him to empty the gunsafe.
bye bye 2 rifles and a shotgun:(

Vegeta

foxshooter243 wrote: »

Guy up our way was working in his shed one evening and a lad walked up behind him and put a gun to his head and told him to empty the gunsafe.
bye bye 2 rifles and a shotgun:(

Ouch, not much you can do in those circumstances now is there. Some fresh underpants would be in order

E. Fudd

Could he not have said " now that's plain greedy! you already have a perfectly edequate firearm pointed at the back of my head!":p