Should Christians vote NO for Lisbon?

Run_to_da_hills

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?. What is the general opinion on this? I am voting no as I am against Europe taking more control over our taxes, mlitary and security. I can see it leading to a Euro Identity card.

Nevyn

We already have abortion under certain limited circumstance in this country but the goverment prefers to ship those women to the U.K. to have those proceedures prefromed which are in thier cases legal to be preformed here.

PDN

Some information on Lisbon from the Evangelical Alliance Ireland: http://evangelical.ie//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=43&Itemid=1

I would trust Europe, with more of a secular philosophy, than I would trust Fianna Fail with its cosy propping up of Catholicism.

JimiTime

I'd trust neither. never voted, never will.

wolfsbane

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?. What is the general opinion on this? I am voting no as I am against Europe taking more control over our taxes, mlitary and security. I can see it leading to a Euro Identity card.

Not being a citizen of Ireland, I can't vote on it - but if I could I would definitely vote NO.

We had Europe the superstate foised on us in the U.K., when Heath lied to the people and claimed they were only voting for an economic relationship. Suddenly the European Economic Community became the European Union - without any further vote. :mad:

I doubt if we an do anything about it though. The rich and powerful seem to have things well sown-up. It's just that I don't want anyone to think I gave my consent.

If you vote for it, don't complain afterwards. If they draft your boys to fight the Russians in Serbia or elsewhere, you'll see what you've voted for.

humanji

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?. What is the general opinion on this? I am voting no as I am against Europe taking more control over our taxes, mlitary and security. I can see it leading to a Euro Identity card.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Not being a citizen of Ireland, I can't vote on it - but if I could I would definitely vote NO.

We had Europe the superstate foised on us in the U.K., when Heath lied to the people and claimed they were only voting for an economic relationship. Suddenly the European Economic Community became the European Union - without any further vote. :mad:

I doubt if we an do anything about it though. The rich and powerful seem to have things well sown-up. It's just that I don't want anyone to think I gave my consent.

If you vote for it, don't complain afterwards. If they draft your boys to fight the Russians in Serbia or elsewhere, you'll see what you've voted for.

"lol" is the only thing that comes to mind from reading those posts. Before deciding to randomly vote on the treaty, you should probably read up on it. There's loads of info on it in the EU forum here.

PDN

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?. What is the general opinion on this? I am voting no as I am against Europe taking more control over our taxes, mlitary and security. I can see it leading to a Euro Identity card.

Under the treaty no changes can be made to our taxation unless the Irish government agrees. So no change there.

Irish neutrality is not affected by the Treaty.

There is nothing now to prevent governments agreeing on a Euro identity card. that remains so irrespective of whether Lisbon is implemented or not. Not that I have any objection to such a card being produced. I already carry a passport, driving license, credit cards, laser card, frequent flyer card, Tesco Clubcard, Hilton Honors card etc - so one more card in my wallet is hardly going to endanger my salvation.

Splendour

I'm definitely a NO voter at the moment. We are neutral now but I don't believe this will remain this way if the YES vote wins-not to mention abortion...

Orion

First off - I'm an athiest and a No voter so bear that in mind when reading my responses.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?.

No. It will not make any difference to the current situation.

Thaedydal wrote: »

We already have abortion under certain limited circumstance in this country but the goverment prefers to ship those women to the U.K. to have those proceedures prefromed which are in thier cases legal to be preformed here.

Actually we don't. The X case does imply that under certain circumstances that it might be legal to perform an abortion but no doctor is going to take the chance until there is legislation to confirm that. And successive governments have refused to legislate for the verdict in the X case. So until there is legislation based on the X case we do not have abortion in Ireland.

In response to the topic - I think everyone - Christian, Athiest, etc should vote no - but I don't believe there are any religious reasons for that.

irishsaint

Yes, A NO Vote is logical given the information on the LISBON Treaty in my opinion for various reasons. However, I firmly believe that the state and religous organisations are seperate entities and that religous morality thinking should not interfere with the functioning of a political entity. The politicaly entity has many more religous organisations working within so as to confrom to all religons would be impossiple, thefore no religous thinking should be involved in your voting aspirations. It should be based on the democratic and beneficial status to the self functioning living individual to whom it will, may and future effect.

wolfsbane

humanji wrote: »

"lol" is the only thing that comes to mind from reading those posts. Before deciding to randomly vote on the treaty, you should probably read up on it. There's loads of info on it in the EU forum here.

Thanks. I would not comment on the specific pros and cons of the treaty: I'm saying is that the vote should be used to get out of Europe, regardless of this treaty's content. The EU is a bad idea, given the nature of its elite. Better deal with the local ones, where we have direct influence.

Pompey Magnus

They wouldn't vote for Ireland in the Eurovision so I won't vote for their treaty, Europe has made an enemy tonight .

Húrin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?. What is the general opinion on this? I am voting no as I am against Europe taking more control over our taxes, mlitary and security. I can see it leading to a Euro Identity card.

Why do you think that abortion and ID cards are the only issues that Christians should be concerned about? What about climate change?

berliner

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd trust neither. never voted, never will.

You're just the guy the men in the smoked filled halls of Brussles love...a passive uninterested leave it to them guy.Bet you vote in your a star and x factor.

judas101

a no vote is a vote for idiocy.

every political party says yes is better for ireland except sin fein and we all know about their solid decision making.

also, when IBEC support yes, anyone with a shred of common sence should see that a yes vote is better for our economy.

leave religion out of this. its a case for common sense. old and afraid of chance? vote no. any working/soon to be working (young person) should vote yes.

Run_to_da_hills

Húrin wrote: »

What about climate change?

I already mentioned that in another thread. Climate change will be an excuse used by the powers to be, i.e. the Euro and US Governments (Eventually to become one) to unleash all their totalitarian fascism. Expect in the near future electronic rationing through track and trace smart card purchases, severe carbon footprint penalties for those that breach their quota. In the name of saving the planet you will eventually become a walking zombie with every movement, financial transaction and phone call you make pinpointing your location on this planet. What 9/11 and the so called war on terror failed in gaining global control, the global warming scam will take over.

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Will a Yes vote will let abortion into the country?

The Maastricht Treaty has a special section on Section 40.3.3 of the Irish Constitution. See here:

Maastricht Treaty wrote:

THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES, HAVE AGREED upon the following provision, which shall be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaties establishing the European Communities: Nothing in the Treaty on European Union, or in the Treaties establishing the European Communities, or in the Treaties or Acts modifying or supplementing those Treaties, shall affect the application in Ireland of Article 40.3.3. of the Constitution of Ireland.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I am against Europe taking more control over our taxes, mlitary and security.

Ireland will continue to maintain a veto, as does every other country, over any military, security or defence issues. See Section 49 (c) 4 of the full Treaty:

Lisbon Treaty, Section 49 (c) 4 wrote:

Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on a proposal from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy or an initiative from a Member State.

(word highlighted).

philologos

irishsaint wrote: »

therefore no religious thinking should be involved in your voting aspirations. It should be based on the democratic and beneficial status to the self functioning living individual to whom it will, may and future effect.

I have to ask this...

But why not? If you have a vote you should surely vote for whatever you want, even if it is based on your religious beliefs.

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

Ireland will continue to maintain a veto, as does every other country, over any military, security or defence issues.

Hitler & Stalin probably said the said the same thing when they took on power. All Governments are run by professed liars!

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Hitler & Stalin probably said the said the same thing when they took on power. All Governments are run by professed liars!

That the best rebuttal you can come up with?

Run_to_da_hills

Ciaran500 wrote: »

That the best rebuttal you can come up with?

Because its true. I came across this poster in Dublin that summed up the Lisbion Treaty.

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Hitler & Stalin probably said the said the same thing when they took on power.

While it would be fair to say that both Hitler and Stalin had a strong interest in a united Europe, I suspect that even you would agree that neither of them approached the issue by means of democratically-enacted treaties with each of the client populations.

And, anyway, how come you're bothering to vote if you don't trust either the process, the treaty or the polity?

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I came across this poster in Dublin that summed up the Lisbion Treaty.

Do you really acquire your political beliefs from lampposts?

Have you ever even read the Treaty?

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Because its true. I came across this poster in Dublin that summed up the Lisbion Treaty.

I laughed when I saw that poster.


I've yet to make up my mind on the Lisbon treaty but I've haven't seen a coherent argument from the no side yet. This thread is proving to be exactly the same.

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

While it would be fair to say that both Hitler and Stalin had a strong interest in a united Europe, I suspect that even you would agree that neither of them approached the issue by means of democratically-enacted treaties with each of the client populations.

And, anyway, how come you're bothering to vote if you don't trust either the process, the treaty or the polity?

Hitler and Stalin went about it the wrong way, i.e. by trying to take control by using brute force. They did not succeed. The EU is doing the exact same thing i.e. trying to take control of each individual country, not by force but by commerce.

Both of them would have given their right arms for the electronic and computerized surveyance systems the powers that be have access with to day. They will be able to monitor and control the movements of every man woman and child in every country in Europe with the press of a button.

The first thing Hitler did when he took power was to improve the infrastructure he built thousands of miles of Auto Bhan. The exact same thing is happening here with our infrastructure. All funded by Europe, We are not getting all these fancy EU funded motorways for nothing.

Ciaran500

Oh come on, don't bring you RFID conspiracies mumblings into this one aswell, from your posts I assume you have no actual reason outside scaremongering why people should vote no.

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We are not getting all these fancy EU funded motorways for nothing.

Nonetheless, I suspect you use these motorways paid for by perfidious Albion and friends, n'est pas?

So again, why are you bothering to vote if you don't trust the system?

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

Nonetheless, I suspect you use these motorways paid for by perfidious Albion and friends, n'est pas?

So again, why are you bothering to vote if you don't trust the system?

Yes I do use them but I will not opt for the Global compatible electronic RFID toll pass, if I am ever cornered into it I will shove it into my lead lined glove compartment when not in use

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Yes I do use them

<cough>

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

but I will not opt for the Global compatible electronic RFID toll pass, if I am ever cornered into it I will shove it into my lead lined glove compartment when not in use

So again, why are you bothering to vote if you don't trust the system?

Sorry to keep asking!

iUseVi

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Hitler and Stalin went about it the wrong way, i.e. by trying to take control by using brute force. They did not succeed. The EU is doing the exact same thing i.e. trying to take control of each individual country, not by force but by commerce.

Both of them would have given their right arms for the electronic and computerized surveyance systems the powers that be have access with to day. They will be able to monitor and control the movements of every man woman and child in every country in Europe with the press of a button.

The first thing Hitler did when he took power was to improve the infrastructure he built thousands of miles of Auto Bhan. The exact same thing is happening here with our infrastructure. All funded by Europe, We are not getting all these fancy EU funded motorways for nothing.

Hmmm. You know there is a Conspiracy Theory forum. You might find them more receptive.

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

<cough!

Im sure the Jews had no problem driving on the AutoBahn when they were first introduced into Germany after the mid 30ies.

robindch wrote: »

So again, why are you bothering to vote if you don't trust the system? Sorry to keep asking

When I vote I have a right to voice my opinion about the government or any political party. A person who dose not bother to vote is a coward and shows that he has no interest and has no right to criticize or say anything against any power that gets in.

I was only 12 years when Ireland joined the Common market, I was old enough back then to understand about it and not to want it. I knew that our national identity would become erroded. When I was first elegible to vote I always voted against anything that would give this potential dictatorship a foothold into the door of this country. Unfortunitally it is going too far now.

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Im sure the Jews had no problem driving on the AutoBahn when they were first introduced into Germany after the mid 30ies.

Do you really think that you're going to be herded into a cattle-truck and pushed into an oven by people from the EU?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

When I vote I have a right to voice my opinion about the government or any political party.

Yes, but it's a bit weird to vote in an election organized by people you don't trust. Why do you trust the voting process, but distrust the politicians?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I knew that our national identity would become erroded. When I was first elegible to vote I always voted against anything that would give this potential dictatorship a foothold into the door of this country.

Are you aware that the Lisbon Treaty:

1. Make the Council of Minister's meetings public (at the moment, it's private)
2. Increases the number of areas governed by QMV voting, which gives an out-of-proportion voice to small nations like Ireland.
3. Introduces a "Citizens' Initiative" (1 million signatures on some issue will require the EU to produce proposals on the topic)
4. Increases the veto power of national parliaments.
5. Moves veto power on certain budgetary items from the smaller Council to the larger Parliament.

In all of these areas, the power of national parliaments is increased, not decreased. And the power of citizens is increased, not decreased. More here. By voting "no", the EU will retain more centralized power than they'll keep "yes" vote.

If you're worried about encroaching dictatorships, then you should be voting "yes".

.

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

Do you really think that you're going to be herded into a cattle-truck and pushed into an oven by people from the EU?.

Nope, but they will make us take the microchip implant instead :eek:

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Nope, but they will make us take the microchip implant instead :eek:

Why did you ignore the rest of his post? You seem to be avoiding anything even remotely awkward.

RealEstateKing

and it doesnt make any sense to me.

Im tempted to vote yes though cause all the people I dislike are urging me to vote now: The extremist Christian right, and the Loony Sinn Fein Left.

So Ill probably vote yes just to spite them.

humanji

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Nope, but they will make us take the microchip implant instead :eek:

In fairness though, isn't that what you need? You say that the chips are a sign of the end of days, and so in order to save mankind you need that to happen soon, before more souls are lost. So you should be voting Yes so that we can all be enslaved, chipped and forced to worship false Messiah's and then God will appear, smite the evil and unworthy and you'll live happily ever after, won't you?

bonkey

RealEstateKing wrote: »

and it doesnt make any sense to me.

Could you give an example....supply some piece of the text that you find incomprehensible?

I ask because I generally can't understand all of this "I don't understand it" stuff. I have a suspicion it means "I got put off by the length, and a brief skim didn't make it all clear"....but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So seriously...can you offer some piece of hte treaty, and explain what it is that doesn't make sense in it?

R0C0

Reasons to Vote No to Lisbon.

1 The Lisbon Treaty initiated in November 2007 is almost identical
to the EU Constitution agreed upon by EU leaders in 2004. It is 95% the same.
The Constitution from 2004 was rejected democratically in referenda by the French and the Dutch.
This did not sit well in brussels so now the EU have returned with the same document repackaged, but this time it will not be
put to referendum anywhere in Europe, bar Ireland, where our court systems demand it. EU leaders openly admit
that they have taken the rejected EU constitution and renamed and repackaged it in an unreadable format.
There are 8500 more words in the new treaty, but 62 less pages.

2 Article 46 of the Lisbon Treaty states: “The Union shall have a legal personality.”
It makes the EU a legal entity in its own right. This means in the international arena the EU will act as a State..
not as a Union of States, it merely keeps the same name, the EU, to avoid controversy. Even our own Minister for Foreign
Affairs Dermot Ahern admits "The Treaty is not to make the E.U more effective, and make it easier for countries to do business. It is primarily designed to give the E.U Legal Authority to make International Agreements on behalf of all member states."

3 Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without recourse to an inter-governmental
conference, a new treaty or a process of national ratification. It's self amending and perpetually binding. If Lisbon passes,
there will be no need for future referenda in Ireland. We will do as we are told. EU leaders can pass just about any law they like and we may have no option but to accept.

4 Our Health System. You think its bad now? Lisbon will open the door to a huge influx of Privatisation within the Health
System (Article 188 and 188b), all other Countries who've allowed their Health systems to go this route have suffered for it.
Look at Britain, Australia, Canada, the more Health is privatised the more Insurance Premiums rise, Care Quality falls, and
public waiting lists get longer. Lisbon will remove the power to veto proposals for international trade in health, education
and social services that the EU makes on our behalf at the WTO. Article 188 would fast track all attempts at privatising
our health sytem, I am referring to the "progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade and on foreign direct
investment" As it stands, we have some say (however minute) in how our Health service is run, if Lisbon goes through we have
no say. So as bad and all as our Health System is, through Lisbon, it has the potential to get a whole lot worse.

5 The Treaty completely and utterly fails to deal with Climate Change, despite what the Government propaganda campaign would
have you believe. It adds a total of SIX words on climate change to existing treaties, see Article 174.1. The Treaty included
the six words at the end of the existing provision "promoting measures at international level to deal with regional or
worldwide environmental problems"... and the six magical words to end Global Warming.. "and in particular combating climate
change”. There is no substance to this addition, it is purely symobolic, and it certainly does not grant the EU power to do
anything it could not currently do under existing provisions.

6 Ireland will be legally bound to promote and facilitate the growth of the Nuclear Power Industry. Protocol 12 of the Lisbon Treaty links the provisions of the EURATOM Treaty to Lisbon and applies the financial provisions of the Union to EURATOM, binding EU member states to “create the conditions necessary for the speedy establishment and growth of nuclear industries” while “facilitating investment to develop nuclear energy”. Whether or not the Irish people support nuclear power will be irrelevant, Ireland will support it.

7 Under Lisbon, Ireland would lose over 60 national vetoes and will give the EU power to make laws binding on us in areas
such as public services, civil and criminal law, immigration, justice and policing, energy, sport, culture, space, public
health and the EU budget. Lisbon would also take away from us the right to decide who the Irish Commissioner is. We'd lose
our right to propose an Irish name and insist on its acceptance by the other Member States. Irelands voting influence will drop from 2% to 0.8%.Is weakening Irelands voice to such an extent really in the best interest of the Irish people?

8 Article 28(c) mandates: “Member states shall undertake to improve their military capabilities.” Ireland will be obliged to increase our financial contributions to the military capabilities of the EU. At a time when our Health System is falling apart and our public transport and education is in a shambles, is it really necessary for (neutral) Ireland to be increasing our military spending?

9 Raising the Irish corporate tax. Currently Ireland has a very low corporate tax when compared with the rest of Europe, Irelands is 12.5%, compare that to Britains 28% and Germanys 30%. Article 2.79 of the Lisbon Treaty would insert a six-word amendment -"and to avoid distorton of competition" - into the Article of the existing European Treaties dealing with harmonising taxes - Article 113. Irelands low rate of corporate tax would be seen as a serious distortion, and as such would most probably be raised.

10 Article 9 of the Treaty states the European Council changes from an inter-governmental body to a European Union institution. This means that rather than act in the interests of the nation states who elect them, the Council would “aim to promote its [the Union’s] values, advance its objectives, its interests”. These values, objectives and interests are not determined, and could be determined by future laws which we'll have no say over.

11 Under Lisbon, Ireland could not have an independent foreign policy that was in conflict with the EU majority. This means that , even if a big majority of the Irish people vehemently opposed a particular EU military action outside of Europe, the Irish government would be obliged to support that action internationally

12 The much touted Charter of Fundamental rights gives us nothing that we already don't have, the Charter does not confer any new rights on the citizens of the European Union. The rights and principles mentioned are all derived from the Treaties and existing EU legislation, the Council of Europe Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and other international documents. What the Yes campaigners will point out is that it now becomes legally binding in the European Court of Justice. What they fail to mention is that this Charter is already being used as a point of reference in the European Court of Justice, take the Laval case for example. Whats more, is that rulings from cases such as the Laval case, show us that this Charter will give precedence to Business' rights over workers rights. That should be very concerning to everybody. If you haven't read about the Laval case, I suggest you do.

Here's what some of the people who drafted the EU Constitution had to say on the Treaty of Lisbon:

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly... All the earlier proposals will be in a new text [the Lisbon Treaty], but will be hidden and disguised in some way...What was [already] difficult to understand will become utterly incomprehensible, but the substance has been retained." - The drafter of the European Constitution Giscard D'Estaing

"There will be no treaty if we had a referendum in France" - French president Nicholas Sarkozy

“They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception" - Giuliano Amato, former Italian Prime Minister and Vice-Chairman of the Convention which drew up the EU Constitution

“The substance of the [rejected European] constitution is preserved.That is a fact.”
- German Chancellor Angela Merkel

“Are we all clear that we want to build something that can aspire to be a world power? In other words, not just a trading bloc but a political entity." - Commission President Romano Prodi, European Parliament


Personally, I find their arrogance astounding. The fact remains though, we are but weeks away from the referendum, and a huge percentage of Irish people still have no idea what this treaty is about. The governments mis-information campaign seems to be working a treat. I propose that you Vote No to this Treaty, that you don't let your opinion be led without knowing, to adopt proposals that these politicians DARE NOT present to you directly. READ THE TREATY. Know what it involves. Then decide. I find it highly improbable that any Irish person who reads and understands this document could see it as beneficial to Ireland.

robindch

R0C0 wrote: »

Reasons to Vote No to Lisbon.

Quoted without attribution from this myspace page, apparently posted (and probably copied from somewhere else) by one "BOOT2daKOOL" who urges everybody to "Vote NO to a NAZI Europe".

Good heavens, are there any no-voters who don't obsess about Hitler?

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Quoted without attribution from this myspace page, apparently posted (and probably copied from somewhere else) by one "BOOT2daKOOL" who urges everybody to "Vote NO to a NAZI Europe".

Good heavens, are there any no-voters who don't obsess about Hitler?

Ah, so it was a cut and paste job? And there I was hoping that R0C0 had spent hours typing all that out and so spending a few hours on his computer instead of being out misleading old ladies about the Lisbon treaty.

R0C0

ACTUALLY guys.. no, you're wrong. I wrote that. That MySpace page takes that from me without giving credit (not that I want any). I put this together about two weeks ago. I posted on my bebo blog and several other boards so the MySpace person obviously got it from me there..

http://www.bebo.com/BlogView.jsp?MemberId=73074909&BlogId=6614736788

http://galwaymusic.proboards70.com/index.cgi?board=links&action=display&thread=1194&page=2

http://social.infowars.com/blog_entry.php?user=Ruko&blogentry_id=10643

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

Ah, so it was a cut and paste job? And there I was hoping that R0C0 had spent hours typing all that out and so spending a few hours on his computer instead of being out misleading old ladies about the Lisbon treaty.

Instead of just claiming its misleading, could you show how it is misleading.

humanji

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Instead of just claiming its misleading, could you show how it is misleading.

Take a look at any of the many Lisbon threads in the Politics forum and you'll see that it's all been debunked before.

R0C0

humanji wrote: »

Take a look at any of the many Lisbon threads in the Politics forum and you'll see that it's all been debunked before.

I think you'll find it hasn't, and it can't be. The title of this thread is "Should Christians vote NO for Lisbon?".. I've posted a list of reasons why everyone should Vote No. If you're not willing to contribute anything then you shouldn't bother posting in this thread.

Scofflaw

R0C0 wrote: »

I think you'll find it hasn't, and it can't be.

And I think you'll find it has, and can.

regards,
Scofflaw

PDN

Anyone have any points that relate specifically to Christians and the Lisbon Treaty? We don't want to create a mirror of a debate that is already going on in the Politics forum as regards the Treaty in general.

The Christianity Board is not the place to discuss whether having an Irish commissioner will stop us having the right "to propose an Irish name and insist on its acceptance by the other Member States". If you give a fig about that then follow the link to the Politics forum and feel free to discuss it there.

humanji

PDN wrote: »

Anyone have any points that relate specifically to Christians and the Lisbon Treaty? We don't want to create a mirror of a debate that is already going on in the Politics forum as regards the Treaty in general.

The Christianity Board is not the place to discuss whether having an Irish commissioner will stop us having the right "to propose an Irish name and insist on its acceptance by the other Member States". If you give a fig about that then follow the link to the Politics forum and feel free to discuss it there.

I honestly don't see how the treaty itself has any bearing on religion at all. The only way it could is if you start makign assumptions as to what will happen in the future is the treaty is/isn't passed, but that's all hypothetical. As it stands, the treaty is pretty much just to try and streamline the way the EU is run.

PDN

humanji wrote: »

I honestly don't see how the treaty itself has any bearing on religion at all. The only way it could is if you start makign assumptions as to what will happen in the future is the treaty is/isn't passed, but that's all hypothetical. As it stands, the treaty is pretty much just to try and streamline the way the EU is run.

Well, abortion and military action would be issues where religion is linked with one's political viewpoint. I would also see global warming and aid to the developing world as spiritually significant.

Also, if it were true (which I don't think it is) that Lisbon was a plot to get all our details on a big computer in Brussels and pave the way for the AntiChrist then that would be a religious aspect to the thing as well.

iUseVi

PDN wrote: »

Well, abortion and military action would be issues where religion is linked with one's political viewpoint. I would also see global warming and aid to the developing world as spiritually significant.

Also, if it were true (which I don't think it is) that Lisbon was a plot to get all our details on a big computer in Brussels and pave the way for the AntiChrist then that would be a religious aspect to the thing as well.

Out of interest, what has global warming got to do with religion?

Should Christians be saving the planet more or less than other people?

TravelJunkie

PDN wrote: »

.

Also, if it were true (which I don't think it is) that Lisbon was a plot to get all our details on a big computer in Brussels and pave the way for the AntiChrist then that would be a religious aspect to the thing as well.

It is inevitable that this will happen one day... one way or the other, whether through Europe or some over means. At what point do you stand up to this and say no though? No to Lisbon? No to a credit card?
Or just no to a chip implant and then is it too late?

PDN

iUseVi wrote: »

Out of interest, what has global warming got to do with religion?

Should Christians be saving the planet more or less than other people?

I believe that we should all be concerned with saving the planet. However, Christians who believe that God created the earth have less excuse for not doing their part.

Also, global warming produces starvation, desertification and poverty. Therefore Christians, who are supposed to care for the poor, should be involved in addressing the problem.