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Sport V's the street

  • 17-05-2008 01:27AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13


    Just a thought ? Stricking arts v's Grappling both standing & on the ground

    How easy is it,in the real world to beat wrestling Gi & no Gi & Muay Thai-grab knee by just simply biten.Far too easy,in the real world.Any arm bar,triangle lock or grab knee can be simply be broke by biten

    but can a stricking art be so easily beaten by biten ? I think not

    So why do'es the world,think that rolling around on the ground in total biten range is an affective form of fighting,when in reality it isnt ?

    Grab knee is just as bad.Just biten and stricking,is the way forward once you have been grabed.This is not dirty fighting,its human nature.All be it the animalistic side of humanity but none the less,its as real as it gets.Pure Vale Tudo in the real world anything go'es realy happens.So why is the MMA world misleading people, particulary the wrestling world.Gi or no gi....claimimg that there art is street smart or the best martial art on the planet.........when a simple bite,with intent can get you out of most holds/locks.

    but........the same cant be said for stricking arts.So really you dont need a hudge ground game,just a full set of teeth.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares



    but can a stricking art be so easily beaten by biten ? I think not

    I think the idea that biting is some kind of panacea for grappling can only be based on a very limited understanding of grappling. Furthermore, the idea that in a "real fight" the "striking range" is clearly defined from the "grappling range" is fairly naive in my opinion. Most fights are a flux of punching and grabbing.

    If you get in a fight and you bite someone you run the risk of infecting yourself with a host of different diseases. You also risk damaging your teeth. I also think if you bite someone in a fight, you exponentially increase the chances of you yourself getting bitten. Finally, if you get in a fight and do your best to avoid it but can't, and end up biting someone's ear/nose off you will have a hard time convincing the gardaí/judge you acted in a reasonable manner.

    I think only an idiot would say "if someone trys to grab me and do that jujitsu **** I'd just bite them".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    I really dont think in a street fight with an adrenaline rush, you're going to be able to think about what sorts of diseases the other person might have, have they had their recent blood tests, ask them for results, or if your teeth might need re-filling after but you don't like the dentist. Main priority would be to get walk away from it, no? Use whatever you can, but that's what training is for. Things become second nature and we should just react, if not, we've some base to fall back onto with what is learned.

    IIRC, you're allowed use necessary force to enable you to stay safe/walk away from the situation OK. Thus if you feel in geniune danger of being killed, then the level of force you can use is greatly increased. It's relative to the level of threat - atleast what I've been told.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    The probable with reasonal defence is it's up to the individual day to decide if it was reasonable force, you could have 20 people saying you use resonable force but if the judge says u went to far ur in trouble, that being said in the few times I've been forced into a street fight, I've used standing guiloteins, rnc's to stop most of them fairly quick


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 mastersofdeath


    I grapple but just be honest with it.Give it a go,play about with it..be alive in your art's.Slowly grapple,when your in an arm bar bite the leg and then get up,when in an triangle lock bite the inner leg area and then hit the groin area.Yes fighting can be a mixture of grabing and hitting but its a lot harder to bite,some at long or middle distance.Bring some one in to grab knee area and biten stricks again.

    I just think people should be honest with them selves,as grapplen on the ground is bumed up to be the be all of ground fighting and is sold to ladies this way as the best means of selfdefence but it isnt.Its a sport pure and simple.As for the police/gardia always being there or it go'en to court,are you for real.They always show up to late and in a fight and with these days it being group attacks with weapons,not mano e mano.

    The ground in any shape of form is the last place you want to be and if you find yourself there,you need to get up asap and biten and stricking is the fastest way not looking for an armbar of rear naked choke.

    All I'm wanting to know is why do people sell,the likes of grab knee and the so called ground game,as the Daddy of the lot of them.When military arts for thousands of years have knowen that ground fighting has biten in it,pure and simple

    Sports,sport and fighting is fighting.They are not one and the same.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    ok, most grappling arts are meant for sport, but if these people are in trouble they can take extra pain too, your arm could be broke before you get a decant bite in, whats going to hurt more? and leave more damage?

    Also the comment that sport is sport etc,,
    striking sports such as muay thai and boxing are much better for the street than where your coming from and are tried and tested against top opponents, then the common man on the street is very easy, ps, anyone can easily use dirty tactics too, even grapplers and other sports orientated arts.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭cletus


    are you saying that you train biting when you grapple, or that grapplers should train biting when they are grappling?

    have you actually tried to bite somebody while rolling with them. I have to say, and this is just me, that if somebody bit me on the leg while I was armbarring them, it would make me want to crank on that armbar fully, not release.

    this sounds similar to the "pinch, get up, go home" video on here recently.

    If, however, you are saying that armbaring or triangling somebody in the street is not a good idea, i'd agree with you, and go so far as to say that nobody with grappling experience would disagree.

    I just don't like the "solutions" that people come up with for the "dreaded grapple", as if one technique negates the whole arsenal of a grappler

    As regards military training, as far as i'm aware the american military use Gracie jiu-jitsu*, the gardai here in Ireland get (very limited) judo etc.


    *what the army uses for hand-to-hand combat is not really an issue, as their training revolves, I would imagine, around weapons and tactics, so air strike FTW ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Me thinks somebody is trolling.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    You can train biting effectively. It's just like putting gloves on for boxing sparring. All you need to do is either get the pink chewy teeth from the pic n mix and put them in. Either that or some fake vampire teeth which are easy enough to pick up at haloween.

    Great training tools.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭cletus


    Roper wrote: »
    You can train biting effectively. It's just like putting gloves on for boxing sparring. All you need to do is either get the pink chewy teeth from the pic n mix and put them in. Either that or some fake vampire teeth which are easy enough to pick up at haloween.

    Great training tools.

    I'm gonna have to get Ger Healy to invest in a couple pairs of those so. I knew he was holding back on me


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Lab_Mouse


    Bjj is very effective,as is muay thai.The average jon doe that starts fights in temple bar wouldnt have a clue.they will only grab on to you to feck u on the ground so that they can kick.Any1 that has trained in a grappling art would have the know how to make sure its the jon doe that was goin on the ground and not yourself.Also the muay thai shin kicks hurt!Dead leg straight away.as do the knees.as do the elbows:D.

    Having said that very few fights r1 on 1(in my experience anyway)so goin to ground to do your armbars or what ever is not a good idea.

    my 2 cents anyway


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 111 ✭✭Power Chords


    I personally wouldn't be too quick to try locks in a street sitution, as everybody seems aware, street fights are rarely if ever one on one. Elbow, knee strikes, low kicks, punches and if close enough eye and throat strikes, then get outa dodge.
    Of course if competent enough, by all means, quick breaks but like I said, I'd stick with strikes, try stay upright and move off.
    And the ground in Temple Bar is covered in puke and piss anyway, ya don't wana be rolling around in that.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Why does everyone assume ground game in a street situation immediately means pulling guard? What about top position? A good knee ride in a street fight would put you in a position to awfully batter whoever it was that attacked you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    While this is a total troll job since other people are treating this as a serious question I'll reply to those posters.

    This question comes up time and again. Basically the whole biting thing, if persued ends like this....

    Grappler: "Sure, you want to fight with no rules what so ever? Thats fine" Because an decent grappler will smoke someone who needs to revert to this... try biting my inner thigh from a triangle while I'm pulling your face away from my leg using your eye holes as handles.

    Bitter: "Eh no, you use a standard unified north american rule set and I'll fight with no rules"

    Even in that situation a decent grappler will smoke a troll pretty easily.

    The sports fighter, the trained combat athlete will control every element of the fight (between the two people). Just like when people want to use eye gouges, firstly they cant be trained properly and second if you want eye gouges you got em, the grappler will take you down, pass your non-existent guard and then, from Mount he'll slowly lower his whole body weight on his thumbs into your eyes. The gouger wont have the same luxury.

    These conversations are retarded.

    Peace


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭Kent Brockman


    I think you are putting yourself at greater risk of more serious injury by biting in a fight.
    If people are bitten they get really pissed off and are more likely to become far more agressive and ruthless eg this is an animal that has just bitten me and I am now defending my life against one!
    If someone bit me then there would be no quarter given from that point on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 111 ✭✭Power Chords


    My only issue with guards, ground situations or locks would be that it leaves you fairly unable to defend against another attacker. That's where I'd give the advantage to an upright striker, not that they'll come out amazingly against multiple attackers but they're in a better position to get offside than somebody in a tangle no matter how well controlled the guard or lock.
    Biting is a last ditch attempt from somebody who probably feels the fight is already lost, wouldn't be something I'd get involved in for lots of reasons, many outlined above.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Ger Healy


    cletus wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to get Ger Healy to invest in a couple pairs of those so. I knew he was holding back on me

    I've just ordered a box of pink chewy teeth from the pic n mix. So roll on next weeks training. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 111 ✭✭Power Chords


    Get some performance enhaning fizzy discs and make a real night of it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Leo?


    wibble wobble biting etc.

    Poor troll job, 1/10.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭cletus


    am quite aware this is a troll job, however i have come across this mentality before, presented in seriousness (sp?) so thought i'd get my €0.02 in.

    Ger, throw in some cola bottles and i'd be well up. BTW tell alan i said good luck and WAR HANNON!!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭droc


    Why would you take the time to give someone the chance to bite while grappling in the street. When you go for the armbar on a guy that attacked you, SNAP that thing on and tear some ligaments. That way he'll be so busy screaming that he won't think to close his mouth on the bite.

    As for the triangle, don't even bother trying to choke him with it, use it to control his head then stick your thumb in his eye, let's see the ****er bite you then.

    Why do people think that grappling in the street is as polite and gentlemanly as it is in competition?

    DROC


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Slowly grapple,when your in an arm bar bite the leg and then get up,when in an triangle lock bite the inner leg area and then hit the groin area.

    This just shows a lack of understanding in how to do a triangle, when you do a triangle your oponents face should not be facing your thigh, their trapped arm should be across their face closing the space, also if someone bit me while I was trying to close up a triangle, all it would serve to do is remind me I can punch/elbow them repeatedly straight in the face.

    It is true that people should remember that biting is something someone else might do in "real fight", but seeing as biting won't really knock someone out, I wouldn't see it as an effective thing to do in a fight at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    seeing as biting won't really knock someone out, I wouldn't see it as an effective thing to do in a fight at all.

    Knockout is not the goal of a fight surely? Winning is. Especially in a street scenario.

    It's a valid point from the OP. Personally I think someone biting me (unless it rendered me nose or earless for example) would just make me really f*cking angry. Someone with their teeth stuck into any part of you is also motionless and their eyes (and the rest of their head) are a very soft target at that point.

    Anyway, the chances that you're gonna actually ever bite or get bitten on the street are really fairly negligable. Thank god life is much safer than this forum makes out. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    cletus wrote: »
    however i have come across this mentality before, presented in seriousness

    Me too. I worked with a nasty fella before who said he wouldn't think twice about biting someones ear or nose off in a fight. Honestly, I believed him.
    Leo? wrote: »
    Poor troll job, 1/10.

    I lol'd. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Well you have to define what a fight is, the context etc. Like presumably we aren't talking about a scenario outside a chip shop where someone skips you in the queue so you attempt to batter them or some bloke is looking at your girlfriend so you run over and head butt them. Presuming everyone here is a reasonable member of society the only reason you'd actually be in a real fight "on the street" is due to some exceptional circumstances. Therefore, within that context, the goal of the fight is to end the fight as quickly as possibly with least amount of injury to yourself. So if you want to end a fight you need to knock a guy out (TKO will count!) or choke him out or render him otherwise immobile. This means you knock him out with a punch, or you knock him senseless with GNP or you choke him out. Getting a guy on the ground and biting his ear off may not end the fight, tearing a chunk out of someone's arm won't end a fight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    I have to agree with Kevin, strangely enough. If you're ok with that by the way? :)
    Biting or tearing an ear etc may serve to infuriate an already aggressive attacker, blasting the head is or choking out should be the main goal. Biting and gouging can only serve to gain distance to strike, don't think that either will win a fight for you.

    Also to the OP when putting on an arm bar or triangle choke in a training/sporting situation, the pressure is applied 'gradually' so the opponent has a chance to tap and you win. In realistic terms if I had a guy in arm bar (if i got it on right!) I wouldn't be waiting for a tap but a short sharp reefing of the limb will break it instantly-thats the goal there 'if' it came to that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 174 ✭✭paxo


    Just a thought ? Stricking arts v's Grappling both standing & on the ground

    How easy is it,in the real world to beat wrestling Gi & no Gi & Muay Thai-grab knee by just simply biten.Far too easy,in the real world.Any arm bar,triangle lock or grab knee can be simply be broke by biten

    but can a stricking art be so easily beaten by biten ? I think not

    So why do'es the world,think that rolling around on the ground in total biten range is an affective form of fighting,when in reality it isnt ?

    Grab knee is just as bad.Just biten and stricking,is the way forward once you have been grabed.This is not dirty fighting,its human nature.All be it the animalistic side of humanity but none the less,its as real as it gets.Pure Vale Tudo in the real world anything go'es realy happens.So why is the MMA world misleading people, particulary the wrestling world.Gi or no gi....claimimg that there art is street smart or the best martial art on the planet.........when a simple bite,with intent can get you out of most holds/locks.

    but........the same cant be said for stricking arts.So really you dont need a hudge ground game,just a full set of teeth.

    We humans are badly designed for biting, relatively small teeth, no muzzle, poor bite pressure and our neck muscles are not designed for ripping and tearing. My Ridgeback on the other hand !!!!:D
    John F Gilbey in " Secret Fighting Arts of the World" wrote about the Parisian halotosis expert, now that would worry me more than biting


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 108 ✭✭conor rowan


    is this another " yea but what if i do this..........", i agreee with fianna these conversations are retarded.

    talking about streetfights in general is a load of **** to be honest. how often do you get into a streetfight with another person trained in MA? not that often as people who spar are generally humbled on a regular basis by their training partners and lose that "i can take on the world" ego that leads to fights. in general a "street fight" is either with a scumbag who wants to mug you/kick the ****e out of you and is rarely on his own or some dickhead who's trying to impress his bird/redefine the size of his balls. either way their generally avoidable.

    who's gonna win in a "street fight"? the trained athelete! be it boxing,MT,BJJ,MMA,wrestling, rugby......... whoever trains at full contact,is used to taking knocks and is stronger will win. fights arent controlled, competitions/sparring matches are. compare like with like!!

    one last comment to put the cat among the pigeons. i have yet to meet someone who has become disillusioned with MMA and gone over to a TMA, the flipside however......

    MMA may not be the best system in the world. but if you dont have the time to join a monastery and train to the nth dan and want something that has a rapid learning curve, active sparring and a very good competition scene in ireland and at the very least makes you aware of the different aspects of a fight (strike,clinch,ground) then MMA is the one to go for.
    every MA has its merits but to assume that BJJ and grappling only prepare you for ground is bull****. every competition starts from standing, just like every "streetfight"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Khannie wrote: »
    Knockout is not the goal of a fight surely? Winning is. Especially in a street scenario.

    Well I'd imagine that the goal of a fight in a street scenario is survival, and the options for this are either escape or knockout (strikes or chokes etc) of your opponents so that they stop fighting you, biting someone is not a guarunteed way to stop someone from fighting you.
    Khannie wrote: »
    Anyway, the chances that you're gonna actually ever bite or get bitten on the street are really fairly negligable. Thank god life is much safer than this forum makes out. :)

    True :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 437 ✭✭silat liam



    one last comment to put the cat among the pigeons. i have yet to meet someone who has become disillusioned with MMA and gone over to a TMA, the flipside however......

    I have a few who train in my classes, and know quite few others who drop out of martial arts completely after being in mma. Thats not to say mma was bad, it just wasnt what they wanted from their training. I'm sure other tma have had people come back to them, and also have people leave tma and go to mma or another tma.

    We live in a world where people have choice, and they often try different things. Its very unlikely someone would come on to the forum and say mma wasnt for them, as in a few hours they would have alot of other regular posters , wanting to know the reasons why, and may not accept the reasons he/she giving. So most people who leave mma or any other martial arts, just slip away. Very few would come up to the instructor or fellow students and say hey I'm going.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    I too have people who tried MMA and opted for something different. MMA doesn't suit everyone, and TMA is the same.


This discussion has been closed.
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