LUAS Fines

monaghanbiffo

Hi guys,

I just wanted peoples opinion on the following, it came up for discussion at work and I have studied law but I was unable to give a definite answer.

A girl at work was stopped getting OFF the luas. She was on a platform and a ticket inspector approached her and asked to see her ticket she said she left it on the luas which was taking off at this stage, she then went to walk on down the stairs to the street when the guy put his hand in front of her and told her she had to give him information and that the gardai were nearby.
She gave him details but she was quite upset after the incident.

I was trying to work out if there are any legal implications arising from this interaction.

Firstly i believe in the relevant bye-laws it refers to you being ON a light rail vehicle without a ticket, but again i couldn't be sure. Also the fact that the guy made her believe she had no option but to remain and answer his questions, could this amount to false imprisonment?

I was hoping to hear peoples opinion on this?

McCrack

monaghanbiffo wrote: »

Hi guys,

I just wanted peoples opinion on the following, it came up for discussion at work and I have studied law but I was unable to give a definite answer.

A girl at work was stopped getting OFF the luas. She was on a platform and a ticket inspector approached her and asked to see her ticket she said she left it on the luas which was taking off at this stage, she then went to walk on down the stairs to the street when the guy put his hand in front of her and told her she had to give him information and that the gardai were nearby.
She gave him details but she was quite upset after the incident.

I was trying to work out if there are any legal implications arising from this interaction.

Firstly i believe in the relevant bye-laws it refers to you being ON a light rail vehicle without a ticket, but again i couldn't be sure. Also the fact that the guy made her believe she had no option but to remain and answer his questions, could this amount to false imprisonment?

I was hoping to hear peoples opinion on this?

On the facts you have described I would be of the opinion there is no actionable grounds for false imprisonment. For FI to be succesfully pleaded there must be total restraint. Your friend could have simply walked on.
She chose to give her details to the inspector albeit under the pretence she was under some obligation to do so but this was of her making.

Victor

McCrack wrote: »

She chose to give her details to the inspector albeit under the pretence she was under some obligation to do so but this was of her making.

There is a legal obligation to provide your details to an authorised officer.

There may be an issue of causing litter on the tram.

Planxty

I was getting off the luas a few weeks ago, had no ticket (I never pay for that junkie filled tin of scum), when I saw two of the ticket checker guys on the platform. I walked to the opposite end of the carriage and got off there. I had my headphones on, and i switched off my music, getting ready to run if necessary. I could hear them call after me but i just continued to walk on to get on to the main public stretch of road. I am pretty certain that legally they could do **** all at that stage. They are a ****ing menace...

McCrack

Right well if its contained in some bye-law which I dont doubt it is is there any power of arrest conferred upon an authorised officer if an individual refuses to give their details what are the penalties if any??

Cheers

kuedm

Maybe it works like back in Canada which is where I'm from.

When you get off a bus / train there's a "payment area". Once you're out of that area you don't have to have proof of payment.

But if they ask for your ticket inside that area you need to have proof of payment. They usually just ask you to buy a ticket if you get caught. If you give attitude then you would get a fine. It really depends on the individual.

If you get off a bus on a street then there's no payment area. Once you're off the bus they can't approach you is what I understand.

Would this apply in Ireland as well?

MrVestek

I remember the last time I got caught without a ticket on the luas. I generally buy tickets as I use the system almost daily for the commute to and from work. I used to just buy the daily return tickets but have since started buying monthlies.

Anyways the last (and only) time I got caught without a ticket I had had an incredibly bad day, lost my bag on said luas in the morning... had alot of crap to deal with in work that day and was just generally having a very very bad day... and to top it all off when the ticket inspector asked me for my ticket I had left it in work that day!

SO ANNOYING!

Anyways to put a long story short I told the inspector what had happened... showed him my pocket full of used luas tickets and the prick still didn't believe me and issued me with a fine. Naturally I gave him false information and when getting off the tram at Stephen's Green proceeded to rip up the copy I was given almost right in front of him.

Bottom line? They seem to be a bunch of pricks who generally don't give a **** and as far as I'm aware once you're off the tram there's no legal obligation to produce proof of having had a ticket...

Planxty

Yeah false information is brilliant.. I'd say they get so much of that. I've found that very few of the inspectors are Irish. I am not being racist but simply stating the truth, in that you have a much greater chance explaining your case to an Irish fellow and him understanding and letting you off than you would have with an African. That is my personal experience anyways.. They seem to have a pre-disposed 'chip on their shoulder' and seem to relish the little bit of 'power' they have..

mikemac

Planxty wrote: »

I've found that very few of the inspectors are Irish.

"I'll show you my Luas ticket if you show me your work permit"

Ok, that's going to come across a trolling comment and it shouldn't be used but I'm sure someone has tried it already

Planxty

micmclo wrote: »

"I'll show you my Luas ticket if you show me your work permit"

Ok, that's going to come across a trolling comment and it shouldn't be used but I'm sure someone has tried it already

Lol yeah you're right, I bet more than a few have

Zzippy

Planxty wrote: »

I was getting off the luas a few weeks ago, had no ticket (I never pay for that junkie filled tin of scum), when I saw two of the ticket checker guys on the platform. I walked to the opposite end of the carriage and got off there. I had my headphones on, and i switched off my music, getting ready to run if necessary. I could hear them call after me but i just continued to walk on to get on to the main public stretch of road. I am pretty certain that legally they could do **** all at that stage. They are a ****ing menace...

Wow, you're so cool, never paying the fare!
If it's so bad why not boycott it or get the bus, by using it and not paying you're as bad as the rest who make it a "tin of scum". I'd love to see you get caught...

BigglesMcGee

I was in a hurry one day getting off at harcourt street and a big ticket inspector stood in my way as i got off.
He asked for my ticket and i told him im not on the Luas anymore so im not showing you my ticket. I just walked off. Himself and another guy then walked in front of me and told me i had to show them my ticket. I asked them did they really want to lay hands on me as i wasnt on the luas and pushed passed them.

I was just in a bad mood and wasnt up for any of their bullyboy tactics, but i did have a monthly ticket in my wallet all along if a cop did come along.

Im now positive that they cant do a thing to you if you are not on the Luas. If they could have they would have. So its only intimidation. I think they would need a cop to ask you to produce your ticket when you are not on the Luas.

1huge1

Planxty wrote: »

I was getting off the luas a few weeks ago, had no ticket (I never pay for that junkie filled tin of scum), when I saw two of the ticket checker guys on the platform. I walked to the opposite end of the carriage and got off there. I had my headphones on, and i switched off my music, getting ready to run if necessary. I could hear them call after me but i just continued to walk on to get on to the main public stretch of road. I am pretty certain that legally they could do **** all at that stage. They are a ****ing menace...

If its so bad why do you even bother using it... I have much more respect for the ticket inspectors than I do for you

Planxty

1huge1 wrote: »

If its so bad why do you even bother using it... I have much more respect for the ticket inspectors than I do for you

Well lucky for me, 'e-respect' doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

The reason I use it is that of getting from A to B is more important than the method of how I get from A to B.

Of course I would rather travel in my own car, were it not for the deplorable congestion on our roads and the incompetency of the Department of Transport.

stepbar

Paying for the Luas is not something that keeps me awake at night TBH. If they spent more money on actually ensuring that people couldn't dodge a fare (understandably not possible at some stops) instead of employing gimps to check tickets we mightened be having this legal argument. Maybe cheaper fares as well wouldn't go a miss.

Our man in Havana

AFAIK if you are not on the Luas the inspectors have no right of detention so you can ignore them and keep on walking. Any restraint would amount to false imprisonment.

SadisticSilence

As far as I know, they can't actually stop you, etc. as they can't necessarily prove you got on without a ticket.
I know that bouncers are required to have a valid ID on them else they're not legally entitled to prevent you entering a club/pub/etc.
I decided to try this out on a Luas inspector the other day.

I've been working myself up for this for a while now and finally got the chance to do it Yesterday. I even had my ticket (7-day combi) so I had nothing to worry about if it backfired.

When he finally got up to me and asked for my ticket, I reached for my pocket and asked if he had ID before I showed him my ticket, which (if I must say so myself) seems pretty fair, considering he had a space on his High-Vis Vest Breast. He seemed VERY startled at this and asked why he would need ID..
I then told him that I'd rather know for a fact that he worked for Veiloa before I showed him my ticket...

I got the nicest response:
"Fine, keep your damn ticket."

I'm still not even sure that they need ID. I'm assuming that it's only right and it's in their employment contract/charter or whatever. Actually, as a matter of interest, what is that big list o' employee 'rules' called? And, would I be able to obtain a copy under FOI?

Red Alert

I pay for my ticket every time I use the LUAS and have zero sympathy for people who couldn't be arsed doing so. They should be caught.

However I think legally you must have a ticket if you are still on LUAS or on LUAS property like platforms. It certainly used to be the case with rail tickets, which is why people years ago had to buy a 'platform ticket' to meet friends or family.

Our man in Havana

If they are Veiloa employees then FOI don't apply. Different matter if they work for the RPA.

monaghanbiffo

I wrote a letter for her the day after she got the fine, it was just expunged today.

The main thing i focused on was the fact she was no longer on the LUAS when they requested to see her ticket, the bye laws clearly state it an offence to be on the light rail vehicle with out a ticket.

I presume they'll stop looking for tickets when people leave the Luas from now on....or not!!!!

Planxty

Where can the LUAS bye-laws be viewed? Is it necessary to go through the whole FOI ordeal?

Victor

S.I. No. 100/2004 — Light Railway (Regulation of Travel and Use) Bye-Laws 2004

On the LUAS:

I never pay for that junkie filled tin of scum

Hmm.....

On being confronted with ticket inspectors:

...getting ready to run if necessary.

On Ticket inspectors:

They are a ****ing menace...

On lying:

false information is brilliant.

Inspectors again:

They seem to have a pre-disposed 'chip on their shoulder' and seem to relish the little bit of 'power' they have.

Can't see what makes you that different. :rolleyes:


On transport in general:

deplorable congestion on our roads and the incompetency of the Department of Transport.

They gave you the LUAS didn't they?

And lastly...

e-respect' doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

Good, cos you lost mine. No big beef though.

There's no pleasing some people........ :rolleyes:

I pay the LUAS, but I'm annoyed when I get punished with a E50 fine for forgetting my ticket. (fair enough, my bad for forgetting to pay. I'll act like I have a pair of gonads and pay up.) and a yob whose only reply to "tickets please" is "OI SED FOOK OFF!" only has to get off at the next stop.

pirelli

Planxty wrote: »

I was getting off the luas a few weeks ago, had no ticket (I never pay for that junkie filled tin of scum), when I saw two of the ticket checker guys on the platform. I walked to the opposite end of the carriage and got off there. I had my headphones on, and i switched off my music, getting ready to run if necessary. I could hear them call after me but i just continued to walk on to get on to the main public stretch of road. I am pretty certain that legally they could do **** all at that stage. They are a ****ing menace...

I have to laugh at Planxty because Luas don't have that same authority as CIE, and Planxtys interpretation of the law, by evasion, is probably quite accurate.


CIE have the power to prosecute, and that means they can prosecute you in court. CIE are unpredictable and I have seen so many cases where they prosecute if a passenger goes one station more than is on your ticket and passenger has to miss a day in work and spend a day in court.

Planxty

Deleted User wrote: »

On the LUAS:


Hmm.....

On being confronted with ticket inspectors:


On Ticket inspectors:


On lying:


Inspectors again:


Can't see what makes you that different. :rolleyes:


On transport in general:


They gave you the LUAS didn't they?

And lastly...


Good, cos you lost mine. No big beef though.

There's no pleasing some people........ :rolleyes:

I pay the LUAS, but I'm annoyed when I get punished with a E50 fine for forgetting my ticket. (fair enough, my bad for forgetting to pay. I'll act like I have a pair of gonads and pay up.) and a yob whose only reply to "tickets please" is "OI SED FOOK OFF!" only has to get off at the next stop.

Say what you like but I stand by my 'junkie filled tin of scum' comment. I assume you are an infrequent passenger unlike myself. I can say that the majority of times travelling on the luas I have encountered a scumbag drinking his Dutch gold at 11am and singing and just being a typical scumbag nuisance.
I travelled on the luas last tuesday and as I boarded it, a couple of young black fellas also boarded, dressed in the inane attire they so often wear (rag around head and cap on top of it etc). These degenerates proceeded to board with their 'music' blaring at full volume and they accompanied the rubbish by 'rapping' along with it. When not rapping, they conversed by way of shouting. The few words I could make out were one's like 'dickhead' which was pronounced like 'deekhead' etc..
Anyways, I could just about tolerate the nuisance as I wasn't far from my stop but just before that, their real cultural beauty shone through. A man in his forties (looked and sounded Italian) attempted to leave the tram. The two were not letting him by, even when he asked and so he had to push past obviously making a disapproving remark. It was then that they erupted and attacked the innocent man. He pushed them outside to the platform and remained on the train. The two tried to stop the doors closing, they were howling and screaming like rabid animals, punching the air and doors screaming 'I'll facking keeel you! etc'.

Anyways, this is just one of many similarly unpleasant encounters that i've experienced on the Luas. If you pay for a ticket on the luas, you are paying for 'on board entertainment', if violent unwashed scumbags and loud obnoxious despicable 'wannabe gangstas' are your thing.

Instead of the ticket checkers being so eager to catch out an honest person like another poster who simply forgot their ticket, their time would be better spent patrolling the carriages making sure there is no behaviour of the above kind.

SadisticSilence

Planxty wrote: »

Instead of the ticket checkers being so eager to catch out an honest person like another poster who simply forgot their ticket, their time would be better spent patrolling the carriages making sure there is no behaviour of the above kind.

+1

Well, in my opinion, the only way we can beat the scumbags is to be better than them. That means being honest to the best of your abilities. If you forget something, it usually means dire consequences of some sort anyways (think forgetting your phone), so why the difference? I accept that as a part of life. And i would be a frequent user. Not for work, but i do use it often. Absolutely agree on the need for guards/bouncers on the luas though.

sd123

Hey, very interesting thread, and I'm new to this forum.

Well, here's my story.

About 6 months ago, I was coming up to Dublin after a long weekend, on a bank holiday monday. I always buy 7-day student tickets on monday morning, which covers me until sunday night. Of course, being a BH monday, I thought it was a sunday, and obviously got asked for my ticket! I presented the ticket, which I thought was ok, until he started telling me it was 'out of date'. I explained my case, telling him it was only a day out, etc but he was having none of it.

He then tried to take my details for the fine and I stayed quiet and said nothing, while remaining on the tram until my stop. While on the way, he radio'd control and he said that he would have no choice but to call the gardai if i didn't co-operate. So I said I'd give him my info.

I gave him all my info honestly, when he asked for ID i said i had none, which was a lie. At the end of the form, he asked me to check if all the info was correct and to sign it. I told him that all the info was correct but I refuse to sign it.

At that stage, I came to my stop, got off, and he followed me. He gave me a last chance to sign it or he would call the gaurds. I said I'm not signing it.
I stood there at the platform argueing with the guy, 2 gaurds came very quickly. I told them the story and they didn't care. One gaurd asked me did I have ID and I chose not to lie to the gaurds and said I did but I wasn't going to show it to him. He said, "show me your ID or I will arrest you" So I did. He then asked me where I was from and where I studied, and he started insulting me and cursing. I finally started walking away and was told to stop or I'd be arrested. Finally he said, ffs, sign the ****ing thing or we'll arrest you. So I did, and walked off very pissed off indeed.

It was only afterwards that I thought of asking the gaurd (which btw was plain-clothed who showed his badge) for badge number, superior, etc.

Q.
any opinions on what happened, my rights, what I should have/ shouldn't have done,etc. especially the parts in bold.
Is it legal for a gaurd to threathen to arrest you for refusing to sign something?
Also, what is the law on asking a gaurd for badge number, superior etc? Is it true that they have to give it to you??