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Scotland's Shame

12357

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,014 ✭✭✭Eirebear


    ONYD, the guy the his trouser round his ankles is an arsehole.

    The other two series of photographs you show are nothing short of police brutality. What right do they have to barge through a mans back with their riot shield?
    The guy with the alsation has been a topic of conversation on other forums yesterday, he is quite clearly trying to put his hands in a calming, defensive gesture not an attacking aggresive one.

    Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but its also becoming fairly obvious that the police lost the plot and innocent people where injured by them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Sizzler


    He's not "goading" the copper

    Yeah I'm sure he was discussing the economic downturn and it just got a bit heated :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭FRM


    Sizzler what really is your problem?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Eirebear wrote: »
    ONYD, the guy the his trouser round his ankles is an arsehole.

    The other two series of photographs you show are nothing short of police brutality. What right do they have to barge through a mans back with their riot shield?
    The guy with the alsation has been a topic of conversation on other forums yesterday, he is quite clearly trying to put his hands in a calming, defensive gesture not an attacking aggresive one.

    Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but its also becoming fairly obvious that the police lost the plot and innocent people where injured by them.

    I don't fall for it, not one bit. This mornings Daily Ranger is at it also. There's a Rangers man on here who constantly talks about "sweeping under the carpet". Take a look at how the SCOTTISH media are doing just that this morning for Rangers FC. Sweeping under the carpet, papering over the cracks etc.. Bain is even claiming they weren't Rangers fans.

    Why were riot police there in the first place?

    Stand up, take responsibility and take action Rangers FC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,606 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Eirebear wrote: »
    ONYD, the guy the his trouser round his ankles is an arsehole.

    The other two series of photographs you show are nothing short of police brutality. What right do they have to barge through a mans back with their riot shield?
    The guy with the alsation has been a topic of conversation on other forums yesterday, he is quite clearly trying to put his hands in a calming, defensive gesture not an attacking aggresive one.

    Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but its also becoming fairly obvious that the police lost the plot and innocent people where injured by them.
    I had the same reaction when I saw the photo's. However, I would also say that we don't know what was happening before the photo's. The guy could have been extremely aggressive and violent but the pictures just may not have captured this. We simply don't know enough about what happened either way.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    Sizzler wrote: »
    Yeah I'm sure he was discussing the economic downturn and it just got a bit heated :rolleyes:

    You've been found out, sarcasm won't dig you out of the hole you're in.

    Dig up dummy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭CountingCrows


    Eirebear wrote: »
    Again, there is no excuse for some of the sickening pictures i have seen, but...

    But nothing, the police didn't start the trouble. And Bain won't even admit the club has a problem with its fans, well there's a good starting point for sorting this out :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,014 ✭✭✭Eirebear


    PauloMN wrote: »
    I don't fall for it, not one bit. This mornings Daily Ranger is at it also. There's a Rangers man on here who constantly talks about "sweeping under the carpet". Take a look at how the SCOTTISH media are doing just that this morning for Rangers FC. Sweeping under the carpet, papering over the cracks etc.. Bain is even claiming they weren't Rangers fans.

    Why were riot police there in the first place?

    Stand up, take responsibility and take action Rangers FC.

    Paul i dont think anyone is sweping anything under the carpet.

    Bain is claiming that these are people who would not usually be connected with Rangers i.e they dont go to games in general, they dont follow the club the way a normal fan would.
    He has also stated that Rangers will be doing everything in their power to bring them to justice.

    Unfortunately there is very little else that Rangers FC as a club can do, except ban anyone identified from our own stadium...not really a punishment for someone who probably doesnt go to games is it?

    The pictures above clearly shpow a man walking away from the trouble and being assaulted by a police officer, now in my mind that is police brutality. Of course we dont know the whole story, but if it was a picture of him going through the back of a police officer like that it would be used in court as evidence. Do you think that man will get the same benefit?

    AGain, i am not condoning the actions of people in Manchester on Wednesday, but we must look at the bigger picture.
    Unfortunately for Rangers, the people to blame HAVE conneced themselves with the club and we must do something about them, in conjunction with the police and GMC, but while doing that we must look at the other factors involved, such as overcrowding of the fanzones, police being unprepared, stewarding etc.

    only then will we get to the bottom of what really happened


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭FRM


    PauloMN yes I do talk about CELTIC sweeping things under the carpet - the fact on that one is they do.

    Its great how some people are gloating on this one.

    The riot police were also at the stadium - why were they there? FFS man the pure numbers meant police were all over Manchester on Wednesday.

    I wonder what action some people want Rangers to take. Some would only be happy if they decided to wind up the club and never to play again just like the Kelly family tried to do across the city for all those years :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Sizzler


    You've been found out, sarcasm won't dig you out of the hole you're in.

    Dig up dummy.

    Sorry? What? If you find my postings offensive report it.

    Do you want me to report you personal abuse?

    I dont feel I have to dig myself out of anywhere, my comment you quoted was attributed to the fact you said he wasn't goading the policeman. OK, I take your point graciously that his fists weren't raised but as a poster since said you don't know what the guy was saying do you? Nor do I ? I can only assume he wasn't asking the copper around for tea and sandwiches. Lighten up.

    I have kept my counsel on the issue and as many TRUE fans have come on and said something should be done about it. I wouldnt prescribe a blanket ban but I honestly feel the club are accountable for their fans and when the sh*t hits the fan something should be done. This thread isnt about past games such as Istanbul, Rome, or Moscow as some people have tried to make it be, its about something that happened this week, was newsworthy and hence the discussion around same.

    For the record, its not just because its Rangers. I support Utd and I would be suggesting the same solutuon if they ran amock to this degree.

    PS: Sorry you got caught up in the hassle in Spain last year, was NOT good.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    Evil_Clown wrote: »
    Rangers have redeemed themselves a little in my eyes by cancelling an open top bus ride due to the death of Tommy Burns
    I still think they should ahve to play some of their next european games behind closed doors
    As a sidenote please don't turn this thread into another Man U vs Liverpool thread with the possibility of trouble in Moscow storyline. This happens too much already in here imo
    But why would you want to celebrate losing is a final. I'm sure it would've still went ahead if they had of won. Just a PR stunt tbh.
    nipplenuts wrote: »
    I'm just surprised no one has blamed the police and/or stadium management for the trouble. After all, every time in the last couple of years a British side has had crowd trouble it has been the fault of "Johnny Foreigner" for not knowing what to expect and/or how to deal with it.
    But some of the Rangers "fans" have blamed the police.
    Interestingly enough there was some Scottish sports journalist on Matt Cooper last night saying that when the big screen broke they got an electrician in to fix it and when he was trying to do so a few "fans" thought it'd be a good idea to throw bottles at him, and well we all know what happened then. Disgraceful behaviour tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭big b


    From today's Daily Record:


    UEFA Cup Final riot: The police lost control
    May 16 2008 By Keith McLeod In Manchester

    BEING on the wrong end of a full-scale charge by police in riot gear is not an experience I'll want to remember.

    One minute the police had lined up, batons drawn and shields up, the next all hell broke loose.

    The police charges seemed ad-hoc, ill-planned and badly co-ordinated.

    One minute they drove fans in one direction, the next it was another.

    This meant that innocent people who had little knowledge of what was going on became embroiled through no fault of their own.

    Some, taken by surprise, were simply not fast enough to outrun the police, who brought in vans and dogs.

    The trigger had been a small number of "fans" who goaded the police by going eye-to-eye with them or chucking a bottle.

    And it was remarkable that almost none of the ringleaders wore club colours or spoke with a Scottish accent. There were, however, many English and Northern Irish accents.
    However, no matter who was involved, the charge by the police was indiscriminate.

    Anyone in their line of advance was a potential target, or so it seemed.

    This meant that when the charge began, the first of a dozen when police frankly lost control of Manchester city centre, those fans who had provoked it scattered quickly, leaving innocents behind to deal with the consequences.

    This was Piccadilly Gardens, the main fan zone in Manchester's showpiece UEFA Cup final celebration.

    I can remember running back with my right hand up to protect myself from any baton blow.

    People were being chased into a confined space with no obvious escape route.

    Thankfully, the full-on police charge halted short of me and I escaped intact.

    Others were not quite so lucky though. I saw baton blows being landed on heads. Maybe police were aiming for the upper arm but the blows did land on heads.

    The next thing I saw was more clear cut. This time, three riot officers chased one man who fell to his knees next to the shutters of a shop.

    Despite the fact he was down, a baton blow hit him square on the back, quickly followed by another.

    The police officer who cuffed him saw fit to land three kicks to the kidney area. The next two hours were punctuated by similar charges where drunk hooligans went face to face with the police.

    Each time more riot police were bussed in, the buses themselves along with police cars became immediate targets for bottles.

    My colleague Craig McDonald was also caught up, though in a different area.

    Several people had hit the deck and showed no sign of getting up any time soon.

    Ambulances were allowed through the mob but police vans and cars were instant targets.

    It was a good idea to crouch in a shop doorway or a nearby alley because there was no way of telling where the next missile was going to land.

    I saw many people with head injuries and baying macho fronts on both sides. A small group of thugs were taunting the police to come forward, which they did at speed, some thumping their batons against their shields. As a bottle was thrown, one cop wearing helmet and visor chose to meet it with a headbutt.

    As the chaos continued I saw elderly people trying to flee and mothers running with toddlers in their arms or in their chairs.

    At one point, police bundled two Record photographers into a police van for their "own safety" - only for other police to force them out again seconds later.

    Only when the police cleared out, leaving no target for the bottle throwers, did things calm down. Zenit fans mingled with Rangers fans with no inter-fan fighting.
    We were shocked by the trouble but not surprised.

    I was uneasy at 4pm on Wednesday.

    I had arrived at Piccadilly Gardens and was even then concerned by the huge numbers on the streets.

    Yes, it was a carnival atmosphere.

    But there were too many people. Even at that stage there were too many, causing bottlenecks and potential for crushing.

    As I made my way to another fan zone at Cathedral Gardens it dawned on me there were too many fans in the city as a whole.

    Police and stewards were doing their best but there were not enough of them.

    It struck me police had badly misjudged numbers of fans. There seemed to be double the anticipated 100,000.

    Manchester City Council had told us they were used to huge sporting events and could cope.

    Fan zones with a combined capacity of 22,000 just didn't stack up.

    The trouble on the streets seemed to be sparked when a huge screen in the main fan zone broke down five minutes before kick-off. For 15 minutes, a sign on the screen said the link from the stadium was being repaired.

    Then the screen went blank.

    At this point, thousands of angry fans tried to get to the other big screens elsewhere in the city centre.

    At first, police allowed access down Oldham Street. Then a line of riot police blocked the street off.

    When aggressive riot police line up, it is highly intimidating. It seems to bring out aggressive and intimidating behaviour in people that way inclined.

    The worst of the trouble began when the riot police arrived. It stopped when the riot police left.


    Absolutely no excuse for some of the savagery, but this account and many others suggest that "Scotlands' Shame" was largely provoked by inadequate facilities (the "broken" screen in particular) & dubious policing and to at least some degree carried out by people who were either non Rangers fans or non-Scottish or both.
    Incidentally, quite how any club are supposed to be responsible for a minimum 100,000 people with no tickets, travel club, or any official affiliation to them is questionable to say the least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭FRM


    Big_B you will get some paranoid people saying that the paper is actually called the 'Daily Ranger'.

    Even though it is a fairer report on the actual situation. As my mate said - the riot police wouldn't let anyone leave the Piccadilly area to go to the other fanzones - thats when the trouble began.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭stooge


    Tauren wrote: »
    I had the same reaction when I saw the photo's. However, I would also say that we don't know what was happening before the photo's. The guy could have been extremely aggressive and violent but the pictures just may not have captured this. We simply don't know enough about what happened either way.

    Exactly.

    How many times do you see people throw bricks or bottles at police and then when the police finally catch up with them the hooligans act like they didnt do anything and they are the cops best friend. I would be inclined (and probably correct) to say alomost everyone who took a hit from a cop deserved it.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    It's always somebody else's fault when Rangers fans misbehave. Always.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    Sizzler wrote: »
    Do you want me to report you personal abuse?

    Do whatever you think is the right thing to do.
    Sizzler wrote: »
    I dont feel I have to dig myself out of anywhere, my comment you quoted was attributed to the fact you said he wasn't goading the policeman. OK, I take your point graciously that his fists weren't raised but as a poster since said you don't know what the guy was saying do you? Nor do I ? I can only assume he wasn't asking the copper around for tea and sandwiches. Lighten up.

    Important bit in bold.

    You're assuming he was "goading" the copper, I'm simply commenting on the pictures I see. We don't know what went on, I think the best thing is comment objectively on what we see. I see a copper with his baton drawn and a number of police dogs in the picture, and a Rangers fan with his hands in front of his face in a defensive stance.

    I see no evidence of goading.
    PS: Sorry you got caught up in the hassle in Spain last year, was NOT good.

    Thank you, it was not a nice experience and I certainly wouldn't wish the same on anyone unless they had committed some offence, and only then if necessary to preserve order.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭big b


    FRM wrote: »
    Big_B you will get some paranoid people saying that the paper is actually called the 'Daily Ranger'.

    Don't I know it!
    Whether that claim is actually accurate is for another day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    stooge wrote: »
    I would be inclined (and probably correct) to say alomost everyone who took a hit from a cop deserved it.

    And I would be inclined to say that until you have witnessed this kind of event first hand you will never know enough to draw that sort of conclusion.

    Police in general do not identify trouble makers then target them for a whack of a baton, in a lot of cases it's "wrong place wrong time". If you're standing within whacking distance and they want you moved, they'll whack.

    My "crime" in Seville was to stand in an aisle that the Robocops wanted cleared. We weren't even aware that trouble had started in the lower tier, they obviously were. I was standing in the aisle by the way, because there was no signs to suggest what block or row we were near, and the match stewards were on strike that week so only had about 15 Spurs stewards to advise us on what to do. Like all of our away games in Europe, we were told to sit in an empty seat we could find, as they weren't made aware of the seating arrangements either.

    For my crime I got a couple of belts of a baton, and was struck on the back of the head (think it was by the cop's arm) as I retreated down a set of stairs. I lost my balance and fell the last few steps, hit my head and was badly winded. The Robocop stood over me with his baton above his head ready to strike me, and I had my arms up much like the Rangers fan in the pictures I commented on to protect myself. A female security guard managed to drag him away from me, and when she came back to see if I was ok she was bawling.

    My mate's girlfriend had her arm broken, and she went to the hospital with a 16 year old girl who had been badly beaten. The girl's dad was in tears because he couldn't defend his own daughter.

    Image017.jpg

    Seville2006044.jpg

    There's Lynn's injuries.

    Her boyfriend got these trying to defend her:

    Seville2006043.jpg

    Seville2006050.jpg

    Please stop assuming anything from the comfort of your keyboard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Please don't think your a expert because of what happened to you in Spain. English police are very different and wouldn't deploy riot police for the fun of it. The Rangers fans were out of control and needed to be stopped. I am gonna be brunt but I don't care and have no symptathy for any Rangers fan who got a beating the other night.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    RasTa wrote: »
    Please don't think your a expert because of what happened to you in Spain. English police are very different and wouldn't deploy riot police for the fun of it. The Rangers fans were out of control and needed to be stopped. I am gonna be brunt but I don't care and have no symptathy for any Rangers fan who got a beating the other night.

    I respectfully suggest I know more than the average fan.

    I've attended about 70 games in the last three years in England, I've travelled the country watching Spurs.

    My experience of high profile London derbies is not as extreme, but I've seen plenty take a belt of a baton for nothing.

    I was pushed in front of a moving car in North London one night by a riot officer who ran at me from behind as I was walking away from the ground. I suppose I don't walk fast enough for them...:rolleyes:

    I'm not excusing the actions of Rangers fans, but the amount of bull being spouted on here by people taking great glee in "the Hun" taking a battering is sickening.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,014 ✭✭✭Eirebear


    RasTa wrote: »
    Please don't think your a expert because of what happened to you in Spain. English police are very different and wouldn't deploy riot police for the fun of it. The Rangers fans were out of control and needed to be stopped. I am gonna be brunt but I don't care and have no symptathy for any Rangers fan who got a beating the other night.

    These would be the same English Police who regularly handed out beatings to people in the 70's and 80's for having an Irish accent yes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭stooge


    Eirebear wrote: »
    Every time eh?
    As i have stated before, there has been 0 arrests on Rangers away trips this season, untill last night.

    I am not trying to deflect from what happened last night, but lets have a look at the bigger picture.

    Yeah, I agree, this season in europe Rangers fans seemed to be doing ok, until wednesday night. But the violence after the final means the last 4 seasons your european campaign has been tainted by some kind of bad behaviour by Rangers fans. Doing a quick search for rangers problems in europe over the past few seasons brings up the following.

    2007
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/6564745.stm

    2007
    http://www.rte.ie/sport/2007/0221/rangers.html

    2006
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6048730.stm

    2006
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4785184.stm

    2002
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1835141.stm

    Also a few interesting facts:
    - 80,000 Celtic fans travel to Seville for UEFA Final (and lost), not one arrest was made.
    - 20,000 Celtic fans travel to Barcelona, Celtic fans took their own bin bags to clean-up. They also receive praise from Barcelona for the fans conduct.
    - 100.000 Rangers fans travel to Manchester for UEFA Final, Manchester resembles a tipping site the next day with numerous arresta dn injuries to police.
    - 20,000 Rangers fans travel to Barcelona, century old monuments are destroyed and fountains are used as toilets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭FRM


    You know what I am fed up with the simple analogy people are making with Seville and Barcelona trips.

    To repeat what the recklessone has already stated - 'I'm not excusing the actions of Rangers fans, but the amount of bull being spouted on here by people taking great glee in "the Hun" taking a battering is sickening'.

    Thats this thread summed up in a sentence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭stooge


    And I would be inclined to say that until you have witnessed this kind of event first hand you will never know enough to draw that sort of conclusion.

    Please stop assuming anything from the comfort of your keyboard.

    What makes you think you are the only one to have been in the middle of some trouble?

    I have witnessed voilence first hand/ I have witnessed rioting. I would be quite confident in saying that I've seen more than most on this forum and not because I've wanted to but purely due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not all of it has been related to football but my statements above have been based on my experiences and in my experience, the very vast majority of people who get hit, deserve it.

    step down off your high horse for a minute and stop trying to defend the indefensible (that is the behaviour of ranger fans).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Eirebear wrote: »
    These would be the same English Police who regularly handed out beatings to people in the 70's and 80's for having an Irish accent yes?

    Yeah that was 20+ years ago, what has that got to do with anything? I go to Manchester about 10 times a season for games and the police are nothing but professional.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭stooge


    FRM wrote: »
    people taking great glee in "the Hun" taking a battering is sickening'.

    I dont take any glee in 'the hun' as your call them, taking a 'battering'. I for one was cheering on rangers in the final, just like i cheered them on through the other rounds. Its not the club/players that I dont like, its the minority of fans who give the club a bad name, and its the failure of the club to erradicate this element that is frustrating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,014 ✭✭✭Eirebear


    RasTa wrote: »
    Yeah that was 20+ years ago, what has that got to do with anything? I go to Manchester about 10 times a season for games and the police are nothing but professional.

    Ah yes, you fly in and fly out of manchester a couple of times a year.

    Have you ever stood in a square with a capacity of 15,000 with almost 30,000 people? The animals who attacked the police caused them to completely lose control and innocent people got hurt.

    As for police proffesionality and control in England, Jean CHarles de Menezes anyone?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭zAbbo


    I haven't read all of this thread, or all of the articles on it, but what I will say, that tarring all the supporters with the same brush is silly.

    All of the issues point to a badly organised event, and poor communication between organisers, security and local police.

    It's far too easy to label all Rangers supporters as scum, which they're not, I'm pretty sure if the same situation occurred I'd be pretty pissed off, and if things were kicking off, I'd have no problem doing everything I could to protect myself and GF.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,595 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Eirebear wrote: »
    As for police proffesionality and control in England, Jean CHarles de Menezes anyone?

    That was a text book execution of a "terrorist".

    You can't compare it to the local bobby told to don a riot suit and "unleash hell"!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    stooge wrote: »
    step down off your high horse for a minute and stop trying to defend the indefensible (that is the behaviour of ranger fans).

    I draw your attention to a post I made earlier:
    I'm not excusing the actions of Rangers fans


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