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Best 3 arts to mix for fighting

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    Burnt wrote: »
    JudoMad, this is all irrelavant, it could be combat yoga for all the difference it makes?

    Do you think that mind set makes a difference or not? If you don't have the will to win;
    a will that exceeds the sting of getting hit in the kidneys and dropped on your head;
    the pain of having you pride dinted in the occasional beat down or the balls to
    step up and fight in the first place; you won't win or achieve anything no matter
    who or what you train.

    What makes a great fighter? Desire/ego, hard work, natural ability, then the art.

    Quote of the thread!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26 Alfredas


    In Lithuania for ground game we using fighting system called Sambo, probably you don't heared about this Martial arts who are maded in Russia, best world mma fighter- Fedor Emelianenko training this martial arts.
    And in Standup i think best Martial arts is Boxing with basic kick of karate or thai boxing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    If you want to be a real expert and specialist in a martial art you need to dedicate a life time to it. If you want to have a reasonable grasp you need to spend about 4 years at it in my opinion. So if you wanted to be an expert in BJJ, Thai and Freestyle you'd need 3 lifetimes. Often people pick one and then go into MMA. If you're a professional of course you can still get very good at all 3 martial arts especially their application to MMA but even some of the most well rounded fighters such as Bj Penn and Randy Couture still rely on their primary training (bjj for bj and greco for Randy). I'd advise anyone interested in mma long term to pick a specific martial art (bjj for example) and try and develop that to the highest level they can while trying to improve the other ranges as much as possible. So train in a bjj specialist club and train clinch and kickboxing in MMA club.

    I think if you started afresh in MMA and were in a MMA club that trained 3 ranges equally you'd probably be a better fighter in 6 months time then someone doing it my way but in 6 years time you still probably won't be excellent at any range and I think it's exellence in a range that brings victories.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭john kavanagh


    the kids (4-6yrs) starting to train MMA now will look back at threads like this in 10yrs or so and laugh trying to figure out what people are talking about - people arguing about which combination of Arts is 'best'.

    they instead will just train 'MMA' and their personalities/attributes will naturally lead them to be 'strikers' or gnp'ers or submission specialists

    the next generation will be experts of the transitional ranges...the ranges in between stand-up, clinch and ground. its those transitional ranges that current fighters coming from individual 'arts' suffer in most. when you look at fighters like BJ and Fedor you are looking at 'transitional' masters....as long as they were training in proven 'sport combat systems' it really didnt matter which ones they were...they are a glimpse of the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭crokester


    the next generation will be experts of the transitional ranges...the ranges in between stand-up, clinch and ground. its those transitional ranges that current fighters coming from individual 'arts' suffer in most. when you look at fighters like BJ and Fedor you are looking at 'transitional' masters....as long as they were training in proven 'sport combat systems' it really didnt matter which ones they were...they are a glimpse of the future.

    Could you explain a litle more by what you mean by that John?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    the kids (4-6yrs) starting to train MMA now will look back at threads like this in 10yrs or so and laugh trying to figure out what people are talking about - people arguing about which combination of Arts is 'best'.
    I agree in part with this John, what i mean by that is-The kids will be far superior than this generation as they will be given our knowledge plus will be more true MMA fighters. When i look at MMA from 2-3 years ago i notice big differences to know, its a fast evolving sport, and the changes are rapid..

    they instead will just train 'MMA' and their personalities/attributes will naturally lead them to be 'strikers' or gnp'ers or submission specialist

    Again i part agree-i think personalities will decide what style the kids will be better at, but i'd say most will still want to focus on the single art that they either prefer or find to be most effective to them-The future will have way better mma fighters but imo will never match the individual styles in that area without specialist training, at the end of the day mma clubs will still have there backgrounds and be better in them area's, yours BJJ and Roper's Kenpo!

    untill we die off the specialist areas the coaches have will still prevail in our clubs! unless we have individual coaches in each range..

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Totally agree with John on this. Whilst it’s a bit of craic to speculate on different Arts, ultimately what matters is the method. What marks something as effective or ineffective, good, not so good, or plain crap is the method used in training, not the individual techniques, not the name above the boor or not the history of the art in question. For people coming to it with no preconceptions, newbies to MMA, kids etc then this will just be obvious and not worth mentioning all that much. Terms like ‘aliveness’, which caused so such debate amongst some are redundant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Roper's Kenpo!
    Now there's the perfect name for my association!

    Roper's Kenpo!
    Learn the 12 transitional ranges of fighting! (patent pending)

    Thanks Paul, I've been looking for the marketting scheme to drive this forward and now I have it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭Subbway


    About combat sambo ground game: I am training at the gym which we have guy who has done 10 years combat sambo and now 1-2 years BJJ (he is soon purple belt). I talked to him about difference and he basically said that BJJ has much more refined ground game. Much more detailed and technical... He said that in combat sambo it's much more about explosions and physical attributes (This guy has sickest bridge and some really weird escapes from submissions which i cannot physically do). In his words both are great sports and both help each other tremendously.

    It's nice to argue about sport against sport but when you take real persons as example you have to remember the inviduals attributes make big difference.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Conchubhair


    Judo
    Muay Thai
    JiuJitsu (not BJJ< :mad: >...traditional jiujitsu of course)

    And maybe Krav Maga aswell :cool:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    What John Kavanagh said is correct; it’s all about transition. I don’t compete in MMA but San Shou Kicking – Punching – Throwing, similar except ground. But to separate fighting into styles or ranges is a fallacy, good sometimes to train a beginner, but only for a while. It’s always about transition, or transformation, a beginner sees only the finishing strike, but not how it’s earned. For millennia martial artists have warned about the sickness of fixation. We practice technique to acquire principle, once we have acquired principle we abandon technique.
    I do think one should try to develop a strong understanding in one complete art, otherwise as the Chinese expression states: 100 Blades, none of them sharp.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    I agree with Kav generally, as I said on page two of the thread the 3 styles are "MMA, MMA and MMA".

    But I'm not convinced that the concept of people training MMA as a style to mean not separating "ranges" as the future is false. Here's why;

    Lets look at Mauy Thai, been around forever, they separate their ranges because training them in different ways is effective. So you separate clinch and outside rangers etc. And of course they are sparred in different cominations and then in a complete combination.

    Then we look at wrestling. Same deal, different ranges are separated to maximise effective training, then its all sparred together.

    And finally, if we look at ancient pankration. The Greeks decided that there would be the mixed style (pankration) and boxing and wrestling as separate divisions. I generally am happy to conceide to anceint greece's greater knowledge on this topic. haha. So I think separating the ranges is cruicial.

    But what is trained in each range is an MMA style.

    As for fighting in transitions a few years ago I was all about butt skoot because no-one trained it.

    I also think GSP and Kid should be added to the list of transitional masters because it is precisely the threat of their skills in some ranges that allow them to be so super effective in other ranges. I mean you rarely see Kid pass guard, he's rarely in guard because his wrestling is so effective.

    Peace


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭TKD SC


    I know this thread is nearly dead! But, just for a further bit of "craic to speculate" as Tim said, I'm gonna throw out one other q's!!

    If you were say a pure boxer / kickboxer / muay thai would the better option be to take up bjj / judo (where 100% is totally new to them) or MMA, given that say 1/3 rd of the MMA training would be "striking" and hence only 66% being totally new to them?

    Or say a judo guy (with good ground) or bjj (with good clinch) - as above, 66% of the mma class would be familiar to them, with the striking as the totally new thing, so would they be better off doing boxing / muay thai classes?

    Or as JK and Niall Keane mention, it's the transition that's important and therefore either a kickboxer / judo guy would be better use of their time to just do pure MMA (even if % cross over in their knowledge base) vs doing something completely new to them where every hour training they might be learning more. Yet, maybe then they still wouldnt be able to put it all together and the different ranges would be too seperate in their heads?

    I repeated myself a bit there but finally managed to get the q's across!! Something for a Monday morning :( anyway!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 mastersofdeath


    All these new names for old ways of fighting.Trasitional ranges are ancient,as there was no seperation of fighting.No stand up,no ground,you were a fighter/solider/warrior.This whole transitional thing is just renventing whats already been done in years gone by.

    Only differnece is that take downs,kept you down.Some thing was broken by the time you hit the ground.So you werent left in a relaxed manner to play on the ground,you where half smashed up by the time you hit the ground.So finishes where quicker,hit them,smash them and break them on the ground ( or normaly weapons involved,your cut up on the ground ).Or as the catch-as you can would do rip you on the ground as in break a limb.

    So its all ole skool stuff nothing mordern at all about it.Just remarketen ole stuff again,callen it something fancie so it sounds new.

    I mean we all saw Bruce Lee do'en MMA in one of his films.How many JKD guy's do people take take seriously,its basicly MMA a bit of this mixed with a bit of that.Any one every seen Rick Young in action ?

    Its all still sport.It 100% has its place but is just part of combat it aint the be all and end all.All this stuff is ancient knowledge,just being brought into a sporting context but it all came from the battlefield arts,traditional arts.Its not new,it aint the future its the past being put in a new box with a fancie ribbon on it,to sell to the MMA brand...its a chain like Mc Donalds now............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 mastersofdeath


    All these new names for old ways of fighting.Trasitional ranges are ancient,as there was no seperation of fighting.No stand up,no ground,you were a fighter/solider/warrior.This whole transitional thing is just renventing whats already been done in years gone by.

    Only differnece is that take downs,kept you down.Some thing was broken by the time you hit the ground.So you werent left in a relaxed manner to play on the ground,you where half smashed up by the time you hit the ground.So finishes where quicker,hit them,smash them and break them on the ground ( or normaly weapons involved,your cut up on the ground ).Or as the catch-as you can would do rip you on the ground as in break a limb.

    So its all ole skool stuff nothing mordern at all about it.Just remarketen ole stuff again,callen it something fancie so it sounds new.

    I mean we all saw Bruce Lee do'en MMA in one of his films.How many JKD guy's do people take take seriously,its basicly MMA a bit of this mixed with a bit of that.Any one every seen Rick Young in action ?

    Its all still sport.It 100% has its place but is just part of combat it aint the be all and end all.All this stuff is ancient knowledge,just being brought into a sporting context but it all came from the battlefield arts,traditional arts.Its not new,it aint the future its the past being put in a new box with a fancie ribbon on it,to sell to the MMA brand...its a chain like Mc Donalds now............


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Judomad


    ( or normaly weapons involved,your cut up on the ground )

    im taking a baseball bat into the cage for my next fight :D:p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I love the "It's all ancient knowledge" line that comes up in these debates.

    Yes, lots of things were known hundreds of years ago that are still known today. Whoop. Dee. Doo.

    Suppose for a second that you're right, and that people could fight far better back in yonder day (although how would we know? How do you compare fighting skills from 300 years ago?) when there was infantry who fought hand to hand and cavalry on horseback etc. etc. What does that mean for today? Very little. I'm unlikely to be charged by sword wielding knights when I'm out tomorrow and I don't think the next time I compete the other guy is going to be on a horse. So you're describing a situation which, no matter how skilled the warriors were, does not exist in the modern world.

    It's a bit like my Da talking about the Kerry teams of old. Ah they were real footballers, none of your nancy boy stuff. Or now Johnny Giles, he was a player, none of your Giggs. Ultimately, it means nothing except as a subject for a pub debate.

    As for your McDonald's comparison. Do you really think that anyone is "packaging" MMA? Do you really think that a worldwide shift from ineffective modes of training to modern concepts is all designed by some corporation or something? What are you trying to say by that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 mastersofdeath


    Who said anything about a horse,ya nut or 300 yrs ago.Just because people dont do MMA or arent knowen about or dont push there art doesnt mean,that it doesnt exist.

    Years ago Iron Mike was the baddest man in the planet,he got into a street fight throws a punch and breaks his hand.All I'm saying is that there is a need to realize that its sport and can work well with in its enviroment.Sport is a first class place and a great testing ground but when it all hits the fan outside,you'll react the same way you train.

    this link was whats the best arts for fighting,fighting where ? In the sporting world or on the street.As they both have there +'s and -'s.

    Whats so hard to understand,sport doesnt have all the answers.It has some of them but you got to know your past,to know the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭3KINGS


    I think old and new has always worked together and I'm talking about combat.To me sport Muay Thai is totaly differnt from Ling Lom or Krabbikrabong.As you can't realy know who win's in a spar with weapon's,even if they are training swords but in sport Muay Thai you can normaly 100% see who the winner is.

    I think both sport and military arts should work together,they have done for hundreds of years in the arts I study from Siam and Indonesia.I dont see what all the fuss is about.Military arts teach about fighting more than one but its better and quicker to learn how to fight 1 on 1 which sporting arts cover very well.

    What is fighting,I think most people want to know ? as to a solider its totaly differnt to him,that it would be to any combat sportsman but from what people I know military or other wise.Its best to have an understanding of both..........J


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭mark.leonard


    Years ago Iron Mike was the baddest man in the planet,he got into a street fight throws a punch and breaks his hand.
    not sure what your point is here, Mike Tyson's greatest performance was his third round KO of Michael Spinks IMO, which he fought with a broken hand. Mike Tyson in his hay day may have broken his hand with his first punch, but I doubt the person he just hit would have been thinking "I have him now" form the unconscious state on the ground!
    All I'm saying is that there is a need to realize that its sport and can work well with in its enviroment.Sport is a first class place and a great testing ground but when it all hits the fan outside,you'll react the same way you train.
    You just hit the nail on the head with this severely flogged horse, reactions are built upon training, what do you train for this street that hones this reaction so different from MMA that its superior?
    this link was whats the best arts for fighting,fighting where ? In the sporting world or on the street.As they both have there +'s and -'s.
    A better question (and I apologies fro trotting it out for the millionth time) is which delivery systems are most effective; in speaking about delivery system you can remove concerns of the exact circumstances involved in an encounter. If I can hit a resisting opponent with a jab, then I can hit anyone with a jab is the thinking. If I can slam somebody in a padded hall, then I can pull off the technique on the street where the slam will finish the fight, being able to pull off the technique is the most important thing, your tactics will change based on where you are and the exact circumstances but the delivery systems should remain the same.
    Whats so hard to understand,sport doesnt have all the answers.It has some of them but you got to know your past,to know the future.

    What? Pseudo-philosophical musing, pretty as it is doesn't really make any point, care to explain?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Years ago Iron Mike was the baddest man in the planet,he got into a street fight throws a punch and breaks his hand.All I'm saying is that there is a need to realize that its sport and can work well with in its enviroment.Sport is a first class place and a great testing ground but when it all hits the fan outside,you'll react the same way you train..

    I badly hurt my hand in a boxing final years ago in the 1st round, i could ahve just gave up unhurt, i boxed on and hit my hurt hand off his head for the rst of the fight, guess what? i won. if it was on the street and i could not just give up what makes you think i would not bounce my wounded hand off the attackers head? next day i'd worry about it. mark said similar and i agree..
    Whats so hard to understand,sport doesnt have all the answers.It has some of them but you got to know your past,to know the future
    MMA has taken anything whats effective and used it, and if there is something that MMA does not know, it will be added-if its not effective its not used, trad martial arts cant say the same, and are set in there commonly outdated ways,

    Boxing now compared to boxing in the 1940 is totally different, thats for the same reasons-been willing to adapt and improve..if the arts not tested then i'll always question why?? and genuinely believe that many martial artists wont compete as they fear finding out there art is not what they thought it was.

    Sport is tested versus very skillful aggressive opponents,
    street is not tested, but when it might be used is against totally untrained opponents that would not last seconds in ring or cage.

    its a stupid debate with people who wont accept the truth.

    Anyway-to drag this back on topic,
    what traditional martial arts do the trad people believe to be useful for mma and why?

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Yep, muskets were one used in warfare - think I'd prefer an M16 though...

    Using the term "Ancient knowledge" is always a big red flag. Just ask any scientist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 jembo


    Great thread, for beginners full of questions, almost every bit of info i was looking for. As mma is such a mixed amalgimation of arts sometimes its hard to know where to start. I suppose the best thing to do would be look for a club who predominantly teach mma but have an instructor who has a good foundation in each of the three arts which seem to be mentioned most, bjj Muay Thai, and Judo. Would people agree and does such a club exist in Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭Martin25


    Dear Master of Death
    (sorry I find it difficult to take these names seriously)
    Good point about Bruce Lee fighting Sammo in the opening shot of Enter the Dragon. Many regard this as the first glimpse of MMA on the big screen.
    Regarding taking JKD seriously, we do make a difference between the life or death situation that we may have to face on the street and sport MMA. One has no rules and will use any and all means necessary to survive and the other has rules and you can tap out. This in not available on the street as the mugger and his mates may be trying to kill you. Like other martial arts JKD has a range of instructors who have diverse opinions on training. Some train only in what Bruce Lee taught which is very simple and direct and others add multicultural martial arts, you pay your money and take your chance.
    Martin


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 mastersofdeath


    Its Master'S of Death actually Martian ;)

    If your a novice you got to be carefull,as you can be jack of all trades and masterfull of none.Find a good cath-as-you can wrestling Coach,Muay Thai Kru or stick fighting Guro of the Phillie arts and give a good 3yrs to them.You got have a solid foundation to build on....modern arts,have the fast food chain approah

    Take Phillie arts,they are modern day savage boxers Pac-Man :cool: they have "Kina-Mutai" an anti grappling art,based on bitting :D they are 1st class with a blade and there arts come from a harsh reality of war and bloodshed MMA wouldn't have stood a chance in WW2 but these guys art come from Gorilla War fare and they can play boxen at the higest of level too.

    Jembo learn to Box and have a few novice fights,learn how to bite in graple range.How fight with astick and have good blade awareness.....three years of this,then give three years to a top grappler have a few novice sub-mission wrestling matches and in 7 years you'ed be sorted.There are no short cuts.................;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    jembo ignore master of death chiefly because he doesn't know how to use an apostrophe.

    Jembo - I've trained in a number of MMA clubs in Dublin (not all of them and only one of them extensively) but to a great extent they train in a very similar manner. In the same way the majority of rugby, soccer and gaa clubs train almost the exact same manner. In my opinion, your best bet is to choose the MMA club that is most convienient for you to train in, give it a try, and if you like the feel of it (athmosphere etc.) keep it up, if not, try a new one. Map of mma clubs in dublin


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 jembo


    Nothingcompares ill give sbgireland a crack and take it from there, thanks lads for the info.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Mikel


    MMA wouldn't have stood a chance in WW2
    Snigger... what, against machine guns and spitfires???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 123fred


    Now Its a pitty cowzerp u made the opening statment in your tread about this depate being about mma style matches as in the tread heading you say best styles for fighting because then this limits what techniques can be used and that changes things.So your not really justified to make a "funny" remark like traditional martial artists can add their discipline's but be prepared the take a grilling cos your still talking about competition! if u make it about pure down in the dirt devastating destruction then all systems of combat must be analyized.There are people in this world who train every day with the serious intention of creating as much damage to their adversary in the quickest time possible,and for them to not get a look in or to even be mocked is nearly unforgivable.pure practical devastating self defence technics can be found in the hands of many traditional martial artists who are constantly adapting and evolving their techniques.there are men who have densified the bone in their knuckles to easily break bone.Men have hardened there fingers for eye jabs and this fingers can smash wood never mind attack delictate area's of the body like the lower neck near the clavicle were theres vital arteries nerves and lymph nodes.there is much devastationto be caused in the hands of many traditional men who train daily for the sole purpose of the complete destruction of their adversary.and these men deserve our respect as we are all brothers of combat.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21 stevie78


    Judomad wrote: »
    1) boxing
    2) judo
    3) wrestling

    thats an easy one. no need for kicks if you have them 3, a punch is faster than a kick, and also you cant kick if your on your back...

    ever watch any ufc fights anderson sylva is lethal on his back with kicks , quite a few guys get caught with bicycle kicks from downed opponents and end up getting knocked on there arse


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