Knox talks!!!

walshb

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2008/0513/kidneyd.html

What an .......

Typical whinger.....

buck65

Shouldn't he be on holidays soaking up the glory of ASSISTING Leinster to a MAGNERS LEAGUE title?

No offence to Leinster fans, the ML is a worthy and well deserved victory, but to have a go at Kidney after bringing an expansive Munster team to a HCup final throught the pool of death is a bit much. Kidney may not be the Messiah (his players do his talking IMO) but surely he deserves a shot without this nonsense.

The O Gara comment is fair enough at least he is judging a player from experience. That's his opinion, he's entitled to it.

This guy is an .........

is_that_so

Take a look at the mixed comments on Kidney in the other thread, however well we might want them to do under Kidney, there is doubt. I am not 100% convinced by his appointment myself but he's entitled to a shot at it. He is right about the Munster style, as successful as it may have been, although I'd say the problems are deeper than just Kidney. He's also right about ROG. He is not Dan Carter. He's a fantastic asset to have when he is kicking well but some of his decisions making in recent times has been iffy.

It is all well and good that they win the HEC but quite a number of the team have not stepped up for the national team any more than players of the other provinces, apart from that "glorious" autumn series before the RWC. Part of the argument in favour of a foreign coach is that they would be untainted by the bunglers that are the IRFU.

Full interview here.

buck65

I agree with your point but Kidney should be judged when he has spent some time in the job, this is just Aussie sledging, typical and arrogant.
Yeah Howlett may have scored a few more tries for Leinster, against the likes of the Dragons and Edinburgh , not exactly Wasps or Clermont Auvergne.
This is just a Leinster / Munster thing in wrapping.
Personally I too would have liked to see Kidney stay in Munster and someone from outside coming in , for 2 reasons 1- Totally selfish reasons in keeping a great structure in the province and 2 to shake up the Irish squad with someone with no allegiances, but there is no need to vent one's frustration on a Munster team that have done the country proud and put Irish club rugby on the map, and in fairness are trying to adapt and widen their game just as Leinster are adapting theirs.

puntosporting

Munsters style of rugby is damn exciting if your a munster man i can tell you that!
Of course its not flair but hard graft and commitment gets a crowd going nicely!
There is always risk involved in any appointment at international level,no one can predict how players and coaches will ultimatly get on!
You have to factor in the form of other nations ,injuries the variables are endless.
The main point is that kidney has earned a shot and the vacancy is there so let him get on with it!
Ill let people make their own minds up on ROG ill just point out what a fantyastic servant he has been to club and country the last number of years!

Evil_Clown

"In an interview with the Irish Independent, Australian coach Knox is very critical of the rugby played by Kidney's Munster, insisting their triumphs come at the expense of any style or flair"

You can have your flair********* I'l have 2 HEINEKEN CUPS, cheers

JWAD

Thought it was fairly honest and his comments on the club and provincial setups are fairly bang-on ie. people in it just for a good time.
His comments on the likes of Tipoki McYellowCard and Mafi also on the ball as is the underuse of Doug Howlett.
And ROG while effective in his own way is no Dan Carter.

Compare the comments of a qualified coach and player with the likes of Ciaran Cronin in the Tribune and you should see the difference.

Its criticism and if it affects you theres only one way to counter it and that is prove Knox wrong. Otherwise, carry on regardless as Declan Kidney.

kmick

While I dont think its very helpful to the whole situation I fear he may be right. Irelands tactics have been fairly uninspiring of late and I cant see kidney changing that.

jaykay74

I'II take winning rugby please.

tHE vAGGABOND

You can have your flair ***********l have 2 HEINEKEN CUPS, cheers

Thats great to hear that Toulouse are not going to bother travelling and you lads have the cup without playing a game..

WP! GG!

Tim Robbins

walshb wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2008/0513/kidneyd.html

What an *********

Typical whinger.....

It's a bit caustic but at the same time some Munster fans won't take any criticism. I mean CA did a no show in a critical game that could have meant Munster didn't make it out of their group. But yet Munster could end up winning the thing.

I consider Munster rugby's biggest achievements in the AIL not the H cup.

Evil_Clown

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Thats great to hear that Toulouse are not going to bother travelling and you lads have the cup without playing a game..

WP! GG!

I also called Mr Knox, Mr Cocks
Just making a point please don't confuse it with arrogance I know that H Cup final is goin to be one hell of a battle

Diamondmaker

Some people here may be surprised to find that his opinions would be the norm in the SH.

We all know what the ABs game is like and Union genuinely is not strongly supported in Oz outside pockets of Sydney. Instead is favour more for ball in hand game, that is League.

They dont like rucks, mauls or kicking for touch or any silly stoppages and techinicalities.... just good old hard running and the infamous and legal ! shoulder charge.

Knox aint jive talking he is just a SH man and until we front up deliver RWCs like Oz and ahemmm the ABs and SA he may have a point.

When Eng defiled the above methods there were not too many fans of that style either side of the equator!!

I dont recall my Munster Brethern raving about how good the Eng style was to behold back then.....Id love to do a search of the Board from back then and see :pac:

EdgarAllenPoo

Meh, flair is only good if it wins you matches. Stick to what wins you matches. Leinster can play all the flashy rugby they like (I'm not trying to turn this into a Munster/Leinster thing but he is a Leinster guy so it's a valid point) and win the Magners League but they came unstuck in the Heineken and they need to figure out what went wrong.

Look at their first round match against Leicester, they played what people would consider an old style Munster type game and they squashed Leicester after that they went downhill.

The whole O'Gara/Carter thing is crap too. O'Gara is not as good as people think (and I'm a Munster fan) but he's the best we have and I honestly don't think Carter is as good as people think. His early matches in the Super 14 this year were fairly pedestrian.

marco_polo

That is a great start to relations between the provincial setups and the national team. But it is typical of what you hear from alot of SH coaches when talking about NH rubgy I'm afraid.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not any of he has a point, the fact of the matter is that as the assistant coach of one of the provinces his comments are crass and unprofessional in the extreme. :mad:

**EDIT ** I have just remembered he is leaving, good riddance. Leinsters backline will be all the better for his absence as well next season.

jaykay74

marco_polo wrote: »

That is a great start to relations between the provincial setups and the national team. But it is typical of what you hear from alot of SH coaches when talking about NH rubgy I'm afraid.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not any of he has a point, the fact of the matter is that as the assistant coach of one of the provinces his comments are crass and unprofessional in the extreme. :mad:

I agree totally. If he wants to pass comment on the irish coach then quit Leinster and get a job in journalism. As an employee of Leinster are his comments in any way helpful to Leinster rugby ??

Inquitus

You've got a look at who actually wanted the Ireland Job.........when you do that you'll quite clearly realise the DK was the best person who actually wanted the Job.

Jake White, Howard etc etc etc had absolutely no fecking interest in the Ireland job.

It is to a degree a poisoned chalice now. Off the back of the Golden Age of Irish rugby comes the task of rebuilding for the future at a time when public and press expectation is at an all time high. There are some unproven young players who may step up to the level at international standard, but the next few years will see the continual exit of Ireland greats to follow Hickie, Easterby, Humphries, Gleeson into retirement - John Hayes days are numbered MOK, Wallace, Quinlan etc etc

dub_skav

Firstly I am not saying I agree with everything Knox says. But...

People are saying it is unprofessional of him to give his opinion. It is actually fairly typical of Australians to give their opinion without worrying about political implications. Surely it is better that the men with an opinion worth listening to (coaches/players etc) give an honest opinion rather than them sticking to the company line.

Also, the Munster v's leinster stuff here is irrelevant. Look at how ireland play - set piece to set piece with some back moves thrown in - and how stale it got, ultimately leading to a shambolic world cup. All he is saying is that Munster play a similar way to Ireland and a change was required.

I personally think Kidney can change his style of play depending on the players and we should give him a chance, but that's just my opinion

jaykay74

dub_skav wrote: »

Surely it is better that the men with an opinion worth listening to (coaches/players etc) give an honest opinion rather than them sticking to the company line.

He is paid (until he finishes up that is) by Leinster to do his best for Leinster. How do these comments help Leinster exactly ? He should have kept his opinions to himself until he was free of his commitment to them.

dub_skav

jaykay74 wrote: »

He is paid (until he finishes up that is) by Leinster to do his best for Leinster. How do these comments help Leinster exactly ? He should have kept his opinions to himself until he was free of his commitment to them.

How exactly do they hinder Leinster?

Size=everything

Has everyone read the full article??

He's completely right the sooner people realise this the better.


And can we change the title of the thread seeing as he is clearly not talking crap

Size=everything

jaykay74 wrote: »

I'II take winning rugby please.

at the cost of international failure?


Not me.

Sangre

ive never met anyone who has compared ROG to Dan Carter.

Size=everything

Sangre wrote: »

ive never met anyone who has compared ROG to Dan Carter.

A few rugby pundits were doing it after the 6 nations in 2006!!


Complete joke!

jaykay74

RickyHatton wrote: »

at the cost of international failure?


Not me.

Hmmm, I don't get you. How does winning rugby lead to international failure ?

Size=everything

jaykay74 wrote: »

Hmmm, I don't get you. How does winning rugby lead to international failure ?

What hes essentially saying is that the Munster game plan that the Munster forwards and our outhalf are used to simply doesn't work on the international stage as they come up against packs of equal or greater strength. As such you need good backline play to compensate something Kidney has shown he is incapable of implenting failing to fully use one of the best wingers in the world in Howlett and Carney's lack of development despite being one of the best rugby league winger in the game.

He also says O'Gara doesn't know how to make space when his pack isn't dominating (something that is likely to happen in international rugby) and generally just throws it to his under pressure inside centre leading to nothing.

Basically the Munster Game Plan doesn't work on the international stage!!

JWAD

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Some people here may be surprised to find that his opinions would be the norm in the SH.

We all know what the ABs game is like and Union genuinely is not strongly supported in Oz outside pockets of Sydney. Instead is favour more for ball in hand game, that is League.

They dont like rucks, mauls or kicking for touch or any silly stoppages and techinicalities.... just good old hard running and the infamous and legal ! shoulder charge.

Knox aint jive talking he is just a SH man and until we front up deliver RWCs like Oz and ahemmm the ABs and SA he may have a point.

When Eng defiled the above methods there were not too many fans of that style either side of the equator!!

I dont recall my Munster Brethern raving about how good the Eng style was to behold back then.....Id love to do a search of the Board from back then and see :pac:

Way to go with the generalisms, diamond..............:rolleyes:

thehighground

dub_skav wrote: »

Firstly I am not saying I agree with everything Knox says. But...

People are saying it is unprofessional of him to give his opinion. It is actually fairly typical of Australians to give their opinion without worrying about political implications. Surely it is better that the men with an opinion worth listening to (coaches/players etc) give an honest opinion rather than them sticking to the company line.

Also, the Munster v's leinster stuff here is irrelevant. Look at how ireland play - set piece to set piece with some back moves thrown in - and how stale it got, ultimately leading to a shambolic world cup. All he is saying is that Munster play a similar way to Ireland and a change was required.

I personally think Kidney can change his style of play depending on the players and we should give him a chance, but that's just my opinion

Well, I bet Jim Williams down in Munster on his way back to be assistant coach of the Wallabies will not be coming out with those kind of bitter remarks and will look back at his time in Munster with some pride. Indeed, most of the Aussie coaches that have been here have been pretty ok - Cheika, Williams and Gaffney all show a bit of class compared to Knox and his rather deluded notions of his own (lack of) success as a coach.

Actually, its quite funny really when you think of it - Munster coaches - McGahan & Williams are both Aussies.

marco_polo

RickyHatton wrote: »

What hes essentially saying is that the Munster game plan that the Munster forwards and our outhalf are used to simply doesn't work on the international stage as they come up against packs of equal or greater strength. As such you need good backline play to compensate something Kidney has shown he is incapable of implenting failing to fully use one of the best wingers in the world in Howlett and Carney's lack of development despite being one of the best rugby league winger in the game.

He also says O'Gara doesn't know how to make space when his pack isn't dominating (something that is likely to happen in international rugby) and generally just throws it to his under pressure inside centre leading to nothing.

Basically the Munster Game Plan doesn't work on the international stage!!

Too true. One very telling statistic that is often convieniently overlooked is that Kidney has never won a single international test match in all his time at Munster :eek:.

Keano

When I first heard this on the radio this morning I was ready to jump in and call your man a bollix! But I was too busy to post.

Now I have had time to reflect on his comments I cannot but laugh, sour grapes springs to mind but I think his attack was more on the style of rugby Kidney's Ireland will play.

This wont please the rugby purist but we don't have the pace of the French or NZ. We do well playing up the jumper stuff.

Sangre

we don't have the pack for it.

tbh, i'm not convinced ireland will just turn into munster. i find it hard to believe a coach with that level of success only has one style, we see it so much at munster because they've no reason to change.

buck65

I'm not sure about the d4 Leinster thing!
I was at the Leinster v Munster ML match last month and there was a fair mixture of Leinster supporters from all walks of life, also there was a great atmosphere there too, well done to all at Leinster they have put alot of work in these past 2 years or so.

Crash

Not really Keano, we occasionally do well at up the jumper rugby. However whenever we try it for a full match we end up getting a bollocking usually.

Knox is stupid for coming out with this, wish he'd kept his trap shut but presumably he's free of contract now?

anyhow, while it does come across as quite crass, there is a good point or two in it, that i've also been making on here:

"If Doug Howlett had played for Leinster this season, he would have ended up scoring 30 tries. He's scored about three or four for Munster. He's seen as the greatest buy of the year but how often has he touched the ball? They have no idea how to use him."

This is VERY true. Its slowly starting to become less true, as they start to change the style of play, but its going to be middle of next season AT THE EARLIEST before Dougie properly gets utilised. Look how much time he's spending coming inside for rucks, etc. just to get some gameplay at the moment.

buck65 wrote:

Yeah Howlett may have scored a few more tries for Leinster, against the likes of the Dragons and Edinburgh , not exactly Wasps or Clermont Auvergne.

The thing is, I don't think you can put it down to the opposition - its a simple case of the style of rugby not favouring having a quality winger at the moment.

JC 2K3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K5BZ3L9dfs

Inquitus

He'd never have scored a try that important at quite alot of other clubs......

Sangre

in fairness howlett has been seriously underused by munster, tipoki and mafi have definitely been utilised a lot more. he would have had a rake more of tries at leinster (oppossition is irrelevant). why? as crash said, different styles. since hickie has left leinster have been crying out for an out and out speedster on the wing and howlett would have slotted in perfectly.

marco_polo

Sangre wrote: »

in fairness howlett has been seriously underused by munster, tipoki and mafi have definitely been utilised a lot more. he would have had a rake more of tries at leinster (oppossition is irrelevant). why? as crash said, different styles. since hickie has left leinster have been crying out for an out and out speedster on the wing and howlett would have slotted in perfectly.

One of the few good points he made in the article (before he went on to call them both ****e ) is that Mafi and Tipoki (who I think are great players) are good elusive runners, but are not the greatest distributers of the ball. Even in games when you see O'Gara passing the ball alot, it rarely travels beyond the 13 channel. I am pretty sure this is more down to a slight lack of vision that anything tactical on the coaches part (Not passing the ball to Douggie would be a pretty stupid tactic after all )

thehighground

Sangre wrote: »

in fairness howlett has been seriously underused by munster, tipoki and mafi have definitely been utilised a lot more. he would have had a rake more of tries at leinster (oppossition is irrelevant). why? as crash said, different styles. since hickie has left leinster have been crying out for an out and out speedster on the wing and howlett would have slotted in perfectly.

Out of interest, how many tries has Shane Horgan, Luke Fitzgerald and Kearney scored this year for Leinster?

thehighground

crash_000 wrote: »

"If Doug Howlett had played for Leinster this season, he would have ended up scoring 30 tries. He's scored about three or four for Munster. He's seen as the greatest buy of the year but how often has he touched the ball? They have no idea how to use him."

This is VERY true. Its slowly starting to become less true, as they start to change the style of play, but its going to be middle of next season AT THE EARLIEST before Dougie properly gets utilised. Look how much time he's spending coming inside for rucks, etc. just to get some gameplay at the moment.

I heard Dougie being interviewed about coming to Munster - part of the attraction was being assured that he would be allowed to come in and get involved in rucks and not just be left as some exotic decoration on the wing. One of the reasons why Dougie is so highly rated is that he always looks for work.

dc69

If anyone didnt hear it Eamon Keane on the lunchtime show,interviewed knox for about 15 minutes,made good points I thought.Went into alot more detail than whats written down in the news.

tHE vAGGABOND

Luke Fitzgerald..

I would rather he learnt how to tackle rather than score fancy tries

Crash

Had a look for the info there thehighground - magners league only lists total tries, not per season.

As for HC - fitz scored 2 tries, Rob scored none, Horgan scored 1.

Le Roux, on the other hand, has scored 4 in the magners

JC 2K3

Hehe.

dc69

crash_000 wrote: »

Had a look for the info there thehighground - magners league only lists total tries, not per season.

As for HC - fitz scored 2 tries, Rob scored none, Horgan scored 1.

Le Roux, on the other hand, has scored 4 in the magners

Luke Fitzgerald is the highest with 6 or 8,cant remember.I think its 6.For a Guy in basically his first season playing out of position with not alot of game time,I think thats pretty good tbh


Everyone has to realise that (at least on the radio interview) He DIDNT QUESTION MUNSTERS SUCCESS AND PRAISED THEM,he said they played boring rugby,which is true.

He criticises Munster style of play,thats his own opinion.The point he makes is that he feels the 10 man game wont work with Ireland so our backs are gona struggle with the ball they get etc.He seems to think our best players on the international stage are backs and that Kidney wont change the gameplan to suit those strengths.
In saying that,Ireland should benefit from the ELV's in this regard.

He said O'Gara isnt the player people make him out to be and doesnt make space,The style Munster play makes him not as effective on the international stage and poor BOD takes the rap.Which is true

He said Doug Howlett hasnt been utilised anywhere near properly and he is one of the best finishers in the world.Which is true

He said in 3 years he has never seen Munster change their gameplan.Which is true

He said,Munster gameplan will not work on the international stage.Which is true

He didnt question Munsters success,he raised imo good points about Kidney and said he questioned his appointment.Which he is perfectly entitled to do.

Sangre

i thought i read fitz had 9 and kearney 2 (ML and HC)?

although it is unfair to to compare. while howlett hasn't played a full season and many of the leinster backs were on RWC and 6 nations duty.

JohnoB

To be honest, Kidney was the only decent coach who wanted the job and we all know it. I think a man from outside would have been good for Irish rugby. Someone to shake things up. While I dont think Kidney will have any axes to grind or any players will be disgruntled with him at the helm (I think everyone will just get on with it) I see his appointment as prolonging the malaise that has creeped into the setup over the last year and a bit. I really hope Im wrong and that Kidney's legendary man management will be enough (alongside the likely coaching staff
Knox's comments are harsh, but behind the typical Aussie flippant jibes there's some truth that every fan of rugby on this site knows! The Munster style of rugby is extremely effective for Munster. However, when Ireland win matches well its a more expansive game. On the other hand if we play up-the-jumper stuff we just crawl across the line or get beaten. There is one problem with Knox's comments though and thats the fact that he's a SH coach. We all know how they want the game played, a glorified version of league. And as for O'Gara being as good as Carter? Ridiculous. On a good day he's as good as they get at playing territory, his kicking can be mesmeric. But his attacking is not dynamic enough and he often fails to control games (take the england game where the rookie Cipriani made him look amateur).
Only time will tell whether Kidney's appointment as Ireland coach will bear fruit. But there isnt really any argument as to whether he was the right man for the job, he was the best man available.
All the Leinster/Munster crap should be put aside. I think most of us would (or should!) prefer a six nations to either the ML or the HC?

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

Cheika, Williams and Gaffney all show a bit of class compared to Knox and his rather deluded notions of his own (lack of) success as a coach.

Actually, its quite funny really when you think of it - Munster coaches - McGahan & Williams are both Aussies.

His contract is up tomorrow so he's just speaking his mind. So what if McGahan and Williams are Aussie? Knox isnt voicing this from a national or xenophobic perspective.

Funny when a journo does this, nobody bats an eyelid.

dc69

JohnoB wrote: »

To be honest, Kidney was the only decent coach who wanted the job and we all know it. I think a man from outside would have been good for Irish rugby. Someone to shake things up. While I dont think Kidney will have any axes to grind or any players will be disgruntled with him at the helm (I think everyone will just get on with it) I see his appointment as prolonging the malaise that has creeped into the setup over the last year and a bit. I really hope Im wrong and that Kidney's legendary man management will be enough (alongside the likely coaching staff
Knox's comments are harsh, but behind the typical Aussie flippant jibes there's some truth that every fan of rugby on this site knows! The Munster style of rugby is extremely effective for Munster. However, when Ireland win matches well its a more expansive game. On the other hand if we play up-the-jumper stuff we just crawl across the line or get beaten. There is one problem with Knox's comments though and thats the fact that he's a SH coach. We all know how they want the game played, a glorified version of league. And as for O'Gara being as good as Carter? Ridiculous. On a good day he's as good as they get at playing territory, his kicking can be mesmeric. But his attacking is not dynamic enough and he often fails to control games (take the england game where the rookie Cipriani made him look amateur).
Only time will tell whether Kidney's appointment as Ireland coach will bear fruit. But there isnt really any argument as to whether he was the right man for the job, he was the best man available.
All the Leinster/Munster crap should be put aside. I think most of us would (or should!) prefer a six nations to either the ML or the HC?

Best first post ive ever seen:)

JohnoB

dc69 wrote: »

Best first post ive ever seen:)

Thanks dc69

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

His contract is up tomorrow so he's just speaking his mind. So what if McGahan and Williams are Aussie? Knox isnt voicing this from a national or xenophobic perspective.

Funny when a journo does this, nobody bats an eyelid.

Aussie (SH) coaching style McGahan (an Australian) is/was Knox's equivalent in Munster (backs/defensive coach). Williams is Munster's forwards coach. Funnily enough, Williams is just about to go back to Oz to coach the Wallabies' forwards. Someone downunder must be impressed at William's ability as a coach and they got that impression from his coaching at Munster.

marco_polo

dc69 wrote: »

Best first post ive ever seen:)

It's all downhill from here on in on the rugby forum