Zelda games getting less good rant

fergalr

Contains spoilers as it's a general discussion on Zelda games.

I was just on Adverts considering selling my DS with Phantom Hourglass.
Thing is, I haven't finished PH yet - I think I'm about 2/3s the way through, and just got bored working my way through that big first dungeon again and again. It wasn't compelling. I thought it was lazy and boring game design to make someone repeat a dungeon numerous times; granted the items changed things, but only trivially, and the experience for the player isn't sufficiently different to make it feel like anything other than grinding.
I thought Links Awakening was actually a better game than PH.

I also didn't complete The Wind Waker, which I bought a Gamecube for. I got to the bit where you have to go and find all the shards of the Triforce scattered around the place - I just thought that task was very boring, and very lazy game design, which only served to pad things out, rather than letting the story reach it's conclusion. There were a few other elements of very design in the WW, notably some of the sailing exploration was overdone, and there was one bit in an early dungeon where you had to avoid guards (stealth section) that was very badly done and really broke the flow.

I completed Twilight Princess, and also Minish cap in the same time frame - so I still like Zelda games, it's not that I've just changed as a gamer.
I thought Twilight Princess was excellent from a game mechanics point of view, although had some story issues

(notably how Zant and Midna got replaced by Gannon and Zelda towards the end, or how the interaction of Link with Zelda and Midna was mishandled).

After finishing Twilight Princess I was quite pleased to see Zelda back on track, but that was ruined by the flaws in the Phantom Hourglass.


Here's what really gets me, though - the two games which I'm complaining about here, PH and WW, got almost universally excellent reviews. I think this is mainly because they are Zelda games, and as such get away with a lot of stuff that other games wouldn't.
I think it's a pity that internal Nintendo standards seem to have slipped as well that they get away with it. Seems to be a sort of Emperors New clothes thing going on.
In the timeframe of Link to the Past, Links Awakening, OoT, it was very hard to conceive Nintendo releasing a Zelda game that was anything less than perfectly polished to an SMB level of perfection.

Anyone else noticed similar?

Davidius

Personally I felt that Twilight Princess was leaning too much towards OoT2. Had it not been for Wind Waker's relatively disappointing sales it probably never would have made especially given that quite a few people didn't like TWW because it wasn't Ocarina of Time (which is actually really overrated).

I actually had more fun playing TWW than TP and had they'd been allowed to finish it properly I'm sure it would've been one of the best.

In general they've been getting 'less good'* for a quite sometime which I feel is probably because they seem to be getting easier. Minish Cap was suprisingly easy for a 2D Zelda and Phantom Hourglass was quite honestly one of the easiest games I've ever played. The only remotely challenging 3D game was Majora's Mask in my opinion.

Story has never really bothered me. Though I was pretty suprised to see that the characters in Wind Waker actually had a little bit more to them. Twilight Princess seem to just abandon it towards the end.

*I like it, it's not as bad as saying "worse".

CrazyTalk

I think Twilight Princess was a rather dissapointing affair, with a great start until this massive feeling of familiarity set in, and then I has to sit through one of the most lacklustre endings of any Zelda game I've played and finished.

I love Wind Waker. Havent played Phantom Hourglass, but I intend to soon.
Twilight Princess is excellent in many parts, buts its just so similiar in style and substance to Ocarina of Time.

One of the reasons I love WW so much is that the look and gameplay of it seperated it from other Zelda games, especially Ocarina Of Time, the one which seems to be the benchmark for other Zelda games to aspire to these days.

zuchum

Not sure how much my opinion matters after having become a Zelda fan after Ocarina of Time, but I absolutely love Wind Waker in every way,thought it was a truly breathtaking game. Unbelievable graphics,unbelievable fun, and so man 'wow' moments.

I also loved Twilight Princess,perhaps there were less wow moments because it wasn't my first Zelda but it was compulsive gaming,and I could never put down the pad.

I still thik its a great series,and am hoping that a next instalment for the Wii is being planned,considering that Twilight Princess was really a Gamecube game.

johnny_ultimate

I would agree that Phantom Hourglass is a bit of a disapointment, but that is based solely on that goddamn annoying dungeon. I was loving it up until the point I had to go back to that place for the fourth of fifth time. It just seemed like so much effort and frustration than I am used to in a Zelda game, which tend to be smooth and pleasant experiences. Really unfortunate flaw in the game - I will finish it eventually, but that darn dungeon keeps turning me off.

But overall, I wouldn't say theres anything wrong with the franchise. I loved every minute of Twilight Princess. Sure, it was basically an upgrade of Ocriana, but it knocked everything up a scale, had plenty of variety, and generally beautifully designed. It is the only game that I played for marathon sessions in quite some time - think I played around 40 hours in a week or so - it was just so compelling. Same with pretty much every other recent-ish Zelda game. Although I still love the Wind Waker, as I credit that with getting me back into gaming after a period of apathy.

witnessmenow

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

as I credit that with getting me back into gaming after a period of apathy.

(also look in his location)

Johnny must be reading the dictionary again.. at least hes still at "A":p


Amother person here not finished PH, that temple gets so boring

Star Lord

I personally enjoyed the temple of the ocean king. I enjoyed the challenge of it, trying to get through the temple using what I'd learned from previous jaunts through along with the new items I'd picked up along the way to try to get through in a quicker time! It's the same kind of thing as those levels in OOT and TWW and TP where you have to go down level by level through a seemingly never ending series of rooms, for minimal reward (Magical armour anyone?) but the challenge of it is what keeps you going back.

IrishMike

I flipping loved the phantom hourglass.
Dunno about everyone else.
Cant imagine why anyone would sell their DS to be honest.
Best console ive ever had and i have had a lot.
Volume of games is just mindblowing.
Something for everyone

Niall0

Majoras mask was awesome(besides the annoying save glitch) , when will they hurry up and put that on the VC!

Chumpski

I agree about PH. I finished the game and enjoyed it but there was a time when i put it away for about a month cos i was sick of the bloody ocean king temple. Very good game and an amazing handheld adventure. I suppose that was the one flaw it had.

I'm new to Zelda games and have only completed PH and TP. TP was great. It lasted me months and i really enjoyed every minute. I have a link to the past and ocarnia of time on the Wii. I have only played bits and pieces of them now but from what i have seen the game mechanics have improved alot since OOT in 1998 (Ive played about the first 4 hours of OOT).

OP, maybe you are tired of playing the same game over and over every couple of years? Understandable!

seraphimvc

fergalr wrote: »

Contains spoilers as it's a general discussion on Zelda games.

I was just on Adverts considering selling my DS with Phantom Hourglass.
Thing is, I haven't finished PH yet - I think I'm about 2/3s the way through, and just got bored working my way through that big first dungeon again and again. It wasn't compelling. I thought it was lazy and boring game design to make someone repeat a dungeon numerous times; granted the items changed things, but only trivially, and the experience for the player isn't sufficiently different to make it feel like anything other than grinding.
I thought Links Awakening was actually a better game than PH.

I also didn't complete The Wind Waker, which I bought a Gamecube for. I got to the bit where you have to go and find all the shards of the Triforce scattered around the place - I just thought that task was very boring, and very lazy game design, which only served to pad things out, rather than letting the story reach it's conclusion. There were a few other elements of very design in the WW, notably some of the sailing exploration was overdone, and there was one bit in an early dungeon where you had to avoid guards (stealth section) that was very badly done and really broke the flow.

I completed Twilight Princess, and also Minish cap in the same time frame - so I still like Zelda games, it's not that I've just changed as a gamer.
I thought Twilight Princess was excellent from a game mechanics point of view, although had some story issues

(notably how Zant and Midna got replaced by Gannon and Zelda towards the end, or how the interaction of Link with Zelda and Midna was mishandled).

After finishing Twilight Princess I was quite pleased to see Zelda back on track, but that was ruined by the flaws in the Phantom Hourglass.


Here's what really gets me, though - the two games which I'm complaining about here, PH and WW, got almost universally excellent reviews. I think this is mainly because they are Zelda games, and as such get away with a lot of stuff that other games wouldn't.
I think it's a pity that internal Nintendo standards seem to have slipped as well that they get away with it. Seems to be a sort of Emperors New clothes thing going on.
In the timeframe of Link to the Past, Links Awakening, OoT, it was very hard to conceive Nintendo releasing a Zelda game that was anything less than perfectly polished to an SMB level of perfection.

Anyone else noticed similar?

hehe,exactly!!:Di am the one feel exactly the same like ya!didnt finish WW 'stuck' on the finding pieces part,PH just didnt make me want to get a NDS yet(played it awhile on friend's ds,dont seem really interesting to me).in handheld console i love Awakening the best and oracles series,minish cap was too easy IMO.Twillight princess is defo a great game (tho i think they should make the puzzle harder ,or maybe because i am aging?i was little kid on awakening).

never get the supergreat review +popular of PH and WW too.WW is a good game but it really bored me traveling long distances etc lose the heat to play the game easily .should give PH another try soon,but somehow ,to me,they dont have the quality of make me wanna play them:pac:maybe due to the egyptian eyes (but real egyptian statue designs really impress me!so cool).

RedXIV

I miss a link to the past on the snes. that was the best game i played for years. I think i still have it actually

*gone rummaging through crap for snes*

Shryke

I thought Wind Waker was great. It had a really refreshing feel while keeping the same Zelda feel.
I haven't played PH yet but I do own it. I just don't play my DS that much and I've got a few games for it.
I liked TP. While it dumbed itself down as it progressed it was still very enjoyable and I was very happy

to see Ganon going ballistic against the mages

. Ganon is easily one of my favorite video game villians. I liked WW that much more for actually fleshing him out a little bit.

thelordofcheese

I personally loved the temple of the ocean king, trying to better my time and collect all the little bits.
I really don't get all the crying over the temple, seeing as everytime you went back you could either open new sections or shave massive amounts of your time, which is needed if you want to get to the end of the thing.

And i really enjoyed the freedom of the sailing in WW, infact WW is one of my favourite zelda games, at times i think i rate it higher than Ocarina. And once again, was the triforce shard collecting bit really that hard? Really?

Diddler82

I have been playing Zelda games since A Link to the Past and I have never actually finished any of them:eek:

I am disgraceful I know, but I used to get so immersed in them and spend hours upon hours playing them and hit a brick wall. Happened me all them years ago with the Snes, in OoT my sister deleted my save game a few years ago and I ended up moving out of the house after putting my fist through a wall and a hurl through her telly:mad:

WW I have not played much of and the same with PH cannot get into either of them. Have mad inroads into TP but again, it is only in spurts I get interest and then lost it again. Maybe it is me getting old but just does not have the same appeal to me anymore for some reason.


That said I have OoT on the VC and TP and I intend to finish both before I die!!

Lahinchians

I've been playing zelda since a link to the past beaten all of them up until the minish cap, havn't played it in a while, don't have a wii so hav'nt played TP yet. In my opinion a link to the past is by far the best zelda game to be released ever. the game was LONG, challenging, and most of all fun. I feel after that the game kept getting shorter and shorter. Oot was brilliant but I think that they could have made it a bit longer. i found WW to be very easy, too much so.

norrie rugger

I just wish that they woud change the bloody storyline
Meet link, meet zelda, go through the same progression of races till the end!!!

valleyoftheunos

My DS with Phantom Hourglass is sitting on my desk waiting to get a bit of use over lunch, its My first proper foray into Zelda and I'm really enjoying it, although I'm a little surprised to say that I'm finding it a little easy. I'm also a little frustrated by constanlty return to the temple of the Ocean King and the island in general but I'm still keeping at it.

when I get through this and a few other ongoing campaigns I'm going right back to a link to the past on the VC.

Irish Halo

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

My DS with Phantom Hourglass is sitting on my desk waiting to get a bit of use over lunch, its My first proper foray into Zelda and I'm really enjoying it, although I'm a little surprised to say that I'm finding it a little easy. I'm also a little frustrated by constanlty return to the temple of the Ocean King and the island in general but I'm still keeping at it.

when I get through this and a few other ongoing campaigns I'm going right back to a link to the past on the VC.

I loved PH, yes returning to the ocean king temple annoyed me but once you get to the last run through or two you fly through it no bother.

It is however the easiest by far of all the LoZ's I've played, I'm actually playing Oracle of Ages at the moment and OoT near the end of both (I think) just need to go back and finish them and move on to Oracle of Seasons and either Majora's Mask or Windwaker.

valleyoftheunos

I much prefer the style of PH and Wind Waker to TP.

solace

Link to the Past was unbelievable. As was Link's Awakening. Never played any of the N64 ones but I quite enjoyed Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.

wordofmouth

Diddler82 wrote: »

and I ended up moving out of the house after putting my fist through a wall and a hurl through her telly:mad:

Holy crap!:eek:

I think this man summed up, quite eloquently, the problem with zelda games at the moment and with nintendo in general it seems. I'm a big zelda fan but i can see his point. Going to fire up the old n64 for a bit of majoras mask this summer after my exams!
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/2608-Zero-Punctuation-Zelda-Phantom-Hourglass

valleyoftheunos

A mate of mine has said he will give me his old gamecube gear, including Wind Waker. Nice.

fergalr

OP, maybe you are tired of playing the same game over and over every couple of years? Understandable!

It's not that, or at least, not just that.
It's a part of the Zelda series that the same triangle of characters (Zelda, Link, Gannon) are used in (almost) every game. There's also a fair few other elements that are shared for game to game, and I don't have any problem with that. It's actually quite enjoyable to see the familiar elements worked into each story...
...But only when it's done properly. Which was the biggest weakness of Twilight Princess, imo, they really broke the plot at the end working in Zelda and Gannon.

I've no issue with Nintendo carrying over thematic elements, or character relations, but they aren't allowed get away with breaking the plot in order to do so. I don't think I saw a single review of twilight princess that pulled them up for this, and it's quite a error to make in a game where story is an important driver. (Anyone remember the last boss you had to fight in FFIX? Similar sort of plot sloppiness).

Overall, Twilight Princess is still a great game, but you wouldn't have seen such a mistake in the earlier days of the series.

I personally loved the temple of the ocean king, trying to better my time and collect all the little bits.
I really don't get all the crying over the temple, seeing as everytime you went back you could either open new sections or shave massive amounts of your time, which is needed if you want to get to the end of the thing.

I enjoyed the challenge of it, trying to get through the temple using what I'd learned from previous jaunts through along with the new items I'd picked up along the way to try to get through in a quicker time!

It's interesting, from the replies, people are pretty divided on this issue. It's cool to see the Zero Punctuation review guy raising the issue too.
Part of it is I've changed as a gamer over time - I no longer play through something that's not entertaining, or interesting, just in order to get to the next part of the game that is compelling (or certainly, my threshold for doing such 'work' has decreased).
There was a time where I'd be quite happy doing some repetitive task in a game, in order to finish it, or move to the next part of the plot, but that time is long gone. Part of this is me, and part of this is the higher standard of games available, which is leading to a general shift in what gamers will accept.
I think designers in general are realising this, and getting much better about having the player do arduous tasks just to pad the gameplay. This is really obvious when looking at the FF series, you have to spend a lot less time grinding to level than you used to. (Ok, slightly contradicted by the 8m+ players playing WoW, but let's ignore them, because I think they are all being suckered into playing a fairly repetitive and boring game in return for community interaction and to satisfy a collecting-urge-based game mechanic).

I think Zelda in the past was very good about this sort of. It's like that Miyamoto quote (which I can't find online) but it basically says that a good game has to be fun to play in the first 5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 hours etc. ie, for a game to be successful, the player should always be enjoying it, it's not acceptable to have troughs. But the more recent Zelda games have these low points (WW+PH). A Link to the Past had very little of this, as did OoT (for example, in LttP, every time you beat a dungeon, you got warped out of it - at the time it was released, a lot of games would have had you walk back out, small things like that).

Having to redo the Ocean King temple may be challenging, but I found it repetitive to have to keep solving the same puzzles over and over again. I really think these days any other game other than a Zelda one would have got slated for this - it's really lazy design of a dungeon where you spend a lot of the game time in. I say it's lazy, because having the player solve the same puzzles over time is a very cost effective way of increasing game length, without actually having to create new content for the player to see.


Thanks for all the feedback anyway, it's cool to see other people having similar thoughts, and it's also interesting to see people enjoying the bits some of us find boring - maybe they should have had an option in the menu to allow you to select whether you wanted to have to redo the Ocean King temple each time :-)