Munster v Weedgies

Inquitus

Not a great spectacle. Glasgow putting Munster under pressure, Munster playing at less than 50%. The ML really needs to sort things out, the last few weeks have been a joke........doesn't lend to much credibility to the League. At least Leinster had it won early and won well (obv they only won it last week, but it has merely been a matter of time for a number of weeks), noone can dilute that achievement.

Stev_o

Inquitus wrote: »

Not a great spectacle. Glasgow putting Munster under pressure, Munster playing at less than 50%. The ML really needs to sort things out, the last few weeks have been a joke........doesn't lend to much credibility to the League. At least Leinster had it won early and won well (obv they only won it last week, but it has merely been a matter of time for a number of weeks), noone can dilute that achievement.

Cough This wouldnt be a problem if there was play off's Cough

Inquitus

I am a firm beleiver in playoffs, I feel it would remove alot of the ambiguity caused by the disingenuous team selection that occurs throughout the year.

I mean one team can play the Ospreys at full strength twice another their seconds twice....thats always going ot be an issue, as long as this sort of team selection continues.

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

Cough This wouldnt be a problem if there was play off's Cough

So true, been a brilliant day of rugby in the GP with 8 teams playing their hearts out for top 4 places and home advantage in a playoff...Gloucester V Bath absolutely excellent, every game had something riding on it, not a meaningless dead rubber in sight.....

Next weekend in the GP it's Wasps V Bath and Gloucester V Leicester in the semis...a mouth watering weekend in prospect.

suppafly

the game was good enough. was never really going to be much as it was a nothing game, just a bit of afternoon entertainment. Munster looked pretty good i thought went they wanted too. The one thing that was annoying though was that the ref was absolutely woeful. I dunno if he was some inexperience ref they gave a run cuz the match met but seriouly like. The second try, donnacha ryan was tackled without the ball and then glasglow just to a fast one when donnacha would have been marking the line out. The last try they scored they was massive crossing that why their was a hole and he said nothing, and then to make it worst he actually put both feet in touch and the tmo still gave it!! Also what happened with wallys try, could see what happened.

On another point there was a big dutch rugby society right beside us. Singing and cheering the whole way through. One of them even went streaking. One his mates was all asking us what we thought the police would do with him. was pretty funny

.[Darren]

Playoffs would be a good idea i heard Magners League were introducing it next season ?

Podge_irl

There are rumours of them being introduced either next season or the season after. The head of Celtic Rugby and some teams have made it no secret that they are in favour of them, so its just up to the unions at this point. Despise the idea myself (though I see the argument for them, I just don't agree with it).

[Jackass]

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are rumours of them being introduced either next season or the season after. The head of Celtic Rugby and some teams have made it no secret that they are in favour of them, so its just up to the unions at this point. Despise the idea myself (though I see the argument for them, I just don't agree with it).

Nope, it's confirmed by league managment, they just haven't implimented it into the league rules yet as they are waiting for the 09/10 season when the welsh unions contractual obligations will have run out with the rfu to hold the EDF cup, therefore freeing up these teams to play the extra games required for play-offs.

As there's a contract in place it can't be confirmed yet, but the welsh will sign up to ML play-offs as apposed to EDF, which was a selfish, damaging move for celtic rugby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/7341673.stm

However, I don't see how this will encourage competetiveness If you only need to aim for 4th in the league as apposed to 1st to win it, how will this encourage teams to play first strength sides throughout the season?

Even Wasps treat the GP like a joke because of the play-off system.

Not a fan personally, although it does add an extra element of excitment and competetivness to the end of season which can't be bad, but I don't agree with a sprinter being awarded a winners medal in a marathon just because he had the fastest time on the home straight but had the slowest time over the length of the race. (<--- analogy of the week)

[EDIT] As a side note, Just interested to ask people actually of what they think of expanding the ML further?

Seeing as there's a top14, Super 14, and GP (12 teams), the ML currently has 10 teams, what would people think of introducing 2 or 4 Italian teams into the league?

And an even further development of this, a second division or "B" division with about 10 teams? I'm not sure where we would get those teams though, possibly a few more Italian teams, maybe even eastern european club sides (Georgia, Romania) if they would be capable of competing, or AIL (??), Welsh league, Scottish league teams? And whatever the make up of these teams, to possibly have a promotion/relegation play-off with the 2 lowest ranking ML teams and 2 highest ML "B" teams to add an even greater element of competetivness? Or is all that a step way to far?

(Not sure about the "B" tornament, but would like to see 2 or 4 Italian sides introduced..even for an excuse to go over there once or twice a season! )

Diamondmaker

The problem with the ML from an irish perspective are that there are 2 very good teams that always have relatively easy ride into the HCup.
Eng and French teams on a similar level have to expend alot more resources to qualify in a similar seedinpostion due to greater quaity and numbers around them.

So long asMunster can cruise into qualification and only really put in a handful of big games a season in the HCup, this will always be. This wont be addressed until Ulster or dare I say it Connacht starting pushing a lazy ML Munster and Leinster for qualifiying positions.
Knock out wont change this.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

Nope, it's confirmed by league managment, they just haven't implimented it into the league rules yet as they are waiting for the 09/10 season when the welsh unions contractual obligations will have run out with the rfu to hold the EDF cup, therefore freeing up these teams to play the extra games required for play-offs.

As there's a contract in place it can't be confirmed yet, but the welsh will sign up to ML play-offs as apposed to EDF, which was a selfish, damaging move for celtic rugby.

I've read that story previously, and like I said I knew yer man David Jordan was all for it, but it still has to be signed up to by all the unions, and there has been no guarantee made that they will. Its likely, but nothing is definite yet.

However, I don't see how this will encourage competetiveness If you only need to aim for 4th in the league as apposed to 1st to win it, how will this encourage teams to play first strength sides throughout the season?

Even Wasps treat the GP like a joke because of the play-off system.

Not a fan personally, although it does add an extra element of excitment and competetivness to the end of season which can't be bad, but I don't agree with a sprinter being awarded a winners medal in a marathon just because he had the fastest time on the home straight but had the slowest time over the length of the race. (<-- analogy of the week)

Couldn't agree more. Possibly improves the run-in, but does little to enhance the rest of the league. If people lose games in the early part of the season now it is damaging, but recoverable obviously (Leinster lost two of their first four games). Play-offs would make losses far easier to take, making early season games less important.
Considering the number of people who complain about weak teams being fielded, this just legitimises that approach, as they will still be in with a shot. 4 from 10 is too many teams as well - the top 40% getting into the play-off is silly.




Impressive stuff from Glasgow incidentally. 4th and 5th in the league for the two Scottish sides, they are certainly improving.

Podge_irl

Diamondmaker wrote: »

The problem with the ML from an irish perspective are that there are 2 very good teams that always have relatively easy ride into the HCup.

All three teams have an easy ride into the HEC. At most Connacht could push Ulster close, but there's no way they'll challenge the other two (I've a sneaking suspicion that the IRFU would just put Leinster/Munster in anyway).

toomevara

[QUOTE='[Jackass]

(Not sure about the "B" tornament, but would like to see 2 or 4 Italian sides introduced..even for an excuse to go over there once or twice a season! )[/QUOTE]

Was against it until you put it like this, no sane man could argue against a couple of extra trips to beautiful Italy..also I suppose any extra competitive/higher level club rugby which the Italians can get would be a good thing...Hell, they might even win a few matches! Surely a good thing for the Italian super 10...

What would be the entry criteria? Top 3/4 in domestic league? How would you get round the inevitable fixture congestion?

damnyanks

There just needs to be more money put into it. If clubs get more cash for doing better then you will start to see marked improvements

anonymous_joe

Without criticising Munster here, or seeking to stir anything up I'll make a brief point.

Of all the 'big' Magner's League teams, only Leinster really went out there and tried to win it. Teams like Munster and the Ospreys concentrated more on the HC.

Given that Munster and the Ospreys both got out of their groups in the HC, (unlike Leinster) I wonder what effect the reduced importance placed on the ML had in keeping them fresher and more up for the big games. If any.

The suggestion of adding in one or two Italian teams is interesting, it would be a bit of a pain geographically, but certainly wouldn't harm the league, and could help them a lot.

Given the increased financial and general clout of France and England, the Magner's League would do well to increase its stature and importance, especially amongst its own teams.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Without criticising Munster here, or seeking to stir anything up I'll make a brief point.

Of all the 'big' Magner's League teams, only Leinster really went out there and tried to win it. Teams like Munster and the Ospreys concentrated more on the HC.

Given that Munster and the Ospreys both got out of their groups in the HC, (unlike Leinster) I wonder what effect the reduced importance placed on the ML had in keeping them fresher and more up for the big games. If any.

The suggestion of adding in one or two Italian teams is interesting, it would be a bit of a pain geographically, but certainly wouldn't harm the league, and could help them a lot.

Given the increased financial and general clout of France and England, the Magner's League would do well to increase its stature and importance, especially amongst its own teams.

Considering Leinster were knocked out of the HEC, no wonder they focussed on the ML. If the roles were reversed, Leinster would have acted in the same way as Munster and the Ospreys.

Munster and the Ospreys both lost huge numbers of players to the RWC too, Leinster lost a good lot, but not their pack. Easier to replace backs than a pack imo.

is_that_so

I think Leinster's inability to perform at a higher level was summed up by their game the previous night. At ML level there are some good teams but once you look beyond the first three or four none of the rest would match up to the elite of the HEC.

They strike me as a team who try far too hard and for all the flair there is often not enough patience and common sense to win games, that Munster have in spades(apart from Leamy ).

I also think they are trying to play a game that was second nature to them a few years back; fast-flowing exciting rugby which is now punctuated with lots of errors and one which they probably need to rebuild next season.

As in any sport, fans like silverware and IMO teams need it. The win this season may help them next year, at the very least it will make them believe that they can win something, even the HEC.

toomevara

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Munster and the Ospreys both lost huge numbers of players to the RWC too, Leinster lost a good lot, but not their pack. Easier to replace backs than a pack imo.

Another good reason to introduce the play-off system, teams who contribute large numbers of players to the international set-up would not be punished as much for it...

Sherifu

Playoffs could be the answer. Something needs to be done.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Considering Leinster were knocked out of the HEC, no wonder they focussed on the ML. If the roles were reversed, Leinster would have acted in the same way as Munster and the Ospreys.

Munster and the Ospreys both lost huge numbers of players to the RWC too, Leinster lost a good lot, but not their pack. Easier to replace backs than a pack imo.

Yeah, I'd agree with what you say about Leinster concentrating on it after they got knocked out, but I dont think Ospreys or Munster were ever concentrating on it, whereas most of Leinster's losses occured at the start, when still missing players due to the WC.

All 3 teams lost a lot of crucial players, so I'd be wary of agreeing with you there, although it's a good point about packs being harder to replace.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yeah, I'd agree with what you say about Leinster concentrating on it after they got knocked out, but I dont think Ospreys or Munster were ever concentrating on it, whereas most of Leinster's losses occured at the start, when still missing players due to the WC.

All 3 teams lost a lot of crucial players, so I'd be wary of agreeing with you there, although it's a good point about packs being harder to replace.

Munster lost Horan, Flannery, Sheahan, Hayes, Buckley, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, O'Driscoll, Quinlan, Wallace, Stringer, O'Gara and Carney to the RWC, we lost some of our best young players (D. Hurley x 2, Ryan, O'Sullivan, B. Murphy) to injury around the same time.

I honestly think no team in the NH could deal with losing that level of players and still remain competitive. That we finished in the top half of the table is extraordinary. Munster currently lose too many players to Ireland duty to be able to take the ML all that seriously.

zAbbo

Sherifu wrote: »

Playoffs could be the answer. Something needs to be done.

Hold on lads, Next year is the last year with the current system, after that they have already agreed on a Play-Off setup.

There's no point complaining when something is and will be done, the only downside is that it's for 2009/10 and not next season.

Sherifu

zAbbo wrote: »

Hold on lads, Next year is the last year with the current system, after that they have already agreed on a Play-Off setup.

There's no point complaining when something is and will be done, the only downside is that it's for 2009/10 and not next season.

Link?

zAbbo

Just added - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magners_League#Play-Offs

Stev_o

Now if the ERC just did qualifications based on the standings in the competition we'd be up and running.

And who said Wasps treat the GP like a joke They lost all their decent players dew to the RWC at the start of the season and looked mediocre till they started peaking around the last 7 matches. Hows that taking the GP as a joke?

Podge_irl

Play-offs may be introduced, nothing has actually been decided yet.

Considering Leinster were knocked out of the HEC, no wonder they focussed on the ML. If the roles were reversed, Leinster would have acted in the same way as Munster and the Ospreys.

They really wouldn't have, as evidenced by the previous two years. Its just not Cheika's philosophy (I'm not claiming its the right philosophy, though I prefer it). There is clearly an argument that some teams go into big HEC games undercooked.


The international call-up thing won't be as big an issue next year. The internationals will only be away for two games.

Seeing as there's a top14, Super 14, and GP (12 teams), the ML currently has 10 teams, what would people think of introducing 2 or 4 Italian teams into the league?

I do think the league needs 12 teams, but I'd sooner see another Scots team and some team based in London if it was possible. Adding the Italians just dilutes the HEC somewhat and partly makes the ML look like the league of everyone who couldn't get into the GP or the T14!

barnesd

While some more squad management might have been required there's no way you would have seen Leinster fielding sides like the one that played in Newport on a regular basis. Remember the HEC is only a possible 3 extra games between January and May, it's not as if you're playing in it every week if you qualify from the groups.

komodosp

Maybe the top 3 teams into the playoffs, with pos 2 & 3 having to play a semi-final but pos 1 not having to would restore the competitiveness (instead of everyone just aiming for "fourth or better") - the incentive to reach first would be avoiding a semi final... pos 2 at home, pos 3 away. (in semi)

Or instead of qualifying for EC by country, qualify by league, so instead of top 3 Irish teams automatically qualifying, and top 2 welsh & 2 scottish (or whatever it is), have top 7 Celtic league

Podge_irl

komodosp wrote: »

Maybe the top 3 teams into the playoffs, with pos 2 & 3 having to play a semi-final but pos 1 not having to would restore the competitiveness (instead of everyone just aiming for "fourth or better") - the incentive to reach first would be avoiding a semi final... pos 2 at home, pos 3 away. (in semi)

The GP tried that, but the team that had to go through the semi was generally more "battle-hardened" and made a better fist at the title. They soon changed it to 2 semis and a final.

Crash

Qualifying for the EC by league is an interesting idea, and would definitely get the ML fairly competitive, but I can't see the unions going for it at all. Losing their definite attendances would be a major kick in the teeth from their point of view.

Podge_irl

crash_000 wrote: »

Qualifying for the EC by league is an interesting idea, and would definitely get the ML fairly competitive, but I can't see the unions going for it at all. Losing their definite attendances would be a major kick in the teeth from their point of view.

As things stand though we have 8 places automatically guaranteed and the 9th place goes into a play-off (which is a guaranteed place this year). So it would make no difference if it was allocated due solely to position, unless the rankings were changed to reflect domestic form (which I think they should be, I am not a big fan of the new reworked rankings). Interestingly enough though, if the ML received fewer places and they were based solely on the league, it is the Irish (in terms of Connacht and Ulster) then the Welsh who would lose out as opposed to the Scottish this year, whereas its generally been seen as the Scottish who would be most opposed to the idea in case they have no HEC teams.

buck65

I think the top 6 teams only should qualify for the HCup that would put the pressure on !!

Tim Robbins

buck65 wrote: »

I think the top 6 teams only should qualify for the HCup that would put the pressure on !!

+1

Top 6 qualify for H cup, then the mid table battles would be meaningful.
the seventh, eight team enter plays off with Italian, or lower French / English teams.