Jesus Camp

Charlie3dan

This will probably be difficult to watch but worth checking out

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/film-and-tv/features/jesus-camp-the-documentary-sensation-follows-young-christian-activists-at-a-summer-school-462716.html

channel 4, 23:05


here's the first paragraph of the article:

"They look like any other American children, but the kids in Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady's disturbing, Oscar-nominated, documentary Jesus Camp are part of an expanding Christian fundamentalist world where religion touches every aspect of their lives, and God and politics are intimately enmeshed."


.....the most disturbing thing is that it's described as an "expanding" group

robindch

Charlie3dan wrote: »

.....the most disturbing thing is that it's described as an "expanding" group

That article is from last August and "Jesus Camp" the video can be found without much trouble on youtube and google videos, and it's come up here a few times before too.

Becky Fischer, the woman who ran the outfit, has an FAQ page on her website about the documentary. In short, she says that the documentary is basically accurate, that she's thrilled that she got such wide coverage and that she's still at it. Since her website includes pictures of children weeping -- presumably in the "the sweet presence of God" -- it does seem that her interests haven't changed much.

The film is an upsetting emotional and intellectual charnel house.

Zillah

I think he means difficult to watch in the sense of "Oh wow this is painful" as opposed to "Man I wish I could find a copy".


Someone less lazy than me go drag up some of the old threads we have on Jesus Camp.

Mr. CooL ICE

Brilliant movie, but I couldn't watch it a second time.



Just thinking about how some people go out of their way to warp young children's minds makes me sick. The children featured are screwed for life

Doctor DooM

Wow. I do hope as those kids grow up they think for themselves. Poor things.

"Kids on Fire" though? Made me laugh.

limerick_woody

It is hard to watch - as a father of two it resonates. Very sad

'no microphone problems - in Jesus name' - you could laugh - almost.

Havermeyer

'no microphone problems - in Jesus name' - you could laugh - almost.

I did laugh, but it was more a laugh of disbelief. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.

If these freaks get their way we're all fukced. These people are revolting.

Doctor DooM

limerick_woody wrote: »

It is hard to watch - as a father of two it resonates. Very sad

'no microphone problems - in Jesus name' - you could laugh - almost.

To be fair, I have often thought when I have been on stage, "Jesus I hope this microphone doesn't shock me"

I can't believe these eedjits have G.W's ear.

Doctor DooM

Great ending though.

No more Jesus Camp! The facility suffered vandalism and they recieved huge negative response due to the film.

And that Haggard guy was caught with a male prostitute.

It would seem God didnt see fit to stop them being hypocrites.

limerick_woody

That Haggard is a scary bastard, did anyone see Dawkins 'chat' with him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcScBdnEhY

I'm delighted that the **** was found out, of course it probably makes his sheep believe in God all the more.

Havermeyer

That Haggard is a scary bastard, did anyone see Dawkins 'chat' with him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcScBdnEhY

I'm delighted that the **** was found out, of course it probably makes his sheep believe in God all the more.

I'd love to see Dawkins interview him post 'incident'.

limerick_woody

Bill Maher, as ever, says it best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCze2_YMFp0&feature=related

JimiTime

I just watched it. Possibly the most disturbing thing I've ever seen!!:mad::(

Havermeyer

I just watched it. Possibly the most disturbing thing I've ever seen!!

Tbh, C4 have shown a fair few "disturbing" documentaries in recent years about this type of thing. You should check out 'The Baby Bible Bashers' and Dawkins' 'Root of all evil' and 'Enemies of reason', if you haven't seen them already. I like to keep myself in touch with all the madness that religion brings to the table, just so I can have an understanding of what is going wrong with our world. Depressing really. I feel sorry for future generations.

Overheal

*ahem*

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055208758

also

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055288941

Being a rather Christian topic it should be discussed there shouldnt it?

I've seen it a few times and give my response in link 1.

Havermeyer

Are you trying to tell me that we cannot discuss the other side of the coin on this forum? Maybe you should have watched 'Taking Liberties' which was also shown on more4 tonight.

@ Overheal. I also believe you mis-quoted the documentary.

According to Jesus Camp (documentary) - 75% of school children in the USA are evangelists.

What they actually said was that "75% of home schooled children in the US are evangelical". More than likely out of fear that they would be given a proper education, and therefore be taught about evolution and the such, sowing the seeds of doubt in their impressionable young minds about the "baby jesus christ".

Overheal

I didnt tell you anything: I asked a question

What other side of the coin though? Even the lads in Christianity condemn Jesus Camp.

Havermeyer

Did I mention the lads on the Christian forum? I think not. My family is Catholic, and I would not put them in the same category as those on that documentary. So what are you getting at?

Being a rather Christian topic it should be discussed there shouldnt it?

And with regards to this again, I believe that it should be discussed anywhere, by anyone who has a valid opinion on the subject. Within reason, of course.

And without an evangelical forum on this board, I don't see why we should drag the folks from the Christianity forum into this. I have a fairly good idea that most on that forum would totally disagree with what's going on over there. My family are fairly religious, but they think this type of thing is crazy. I've yet to meet a religious person who thinks this is acceptable.

Overheal

nummnutts wrote: »

What they actually said was that "75% of home schooled children in the US are evangelical. More than likely out of fear that they would be given a proper education, and therefore be taught about evolution and the such, sowing the seeds of doubt in their impressionable young minds about the "baby jesus christ".

Oh ok. That makes more sense.

I brought it to the Christianity forum in the first place because I wanted to see how related it was. According to the responses: not really at all.

But its just theres 3 active threads on this: in Christianity, Television, and Here.

Havermeyer

Oh ok. That makes more sense.

I brought it to the Christianity forum in the first place because I wanted to see how related it was. According to the responses: not really at all.

But its just theres 3 active threads on this: in Christianity, Television, and Here.

Fair enough. But maybe the OP didn't know that and just saw this advertised and was interested in peoples opinions. In my opinion, it's more fitting for this forum because the documentary was simply more fodder for an arguement against rather than for religion. I think you could agree with that!?

kowloon

nummnutts wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me that we cannot discuss the other side of the coin on this forum? Maybe you should have watched 'Taking Liberties' which was also shown on more4 tonight.

Just finished watching Taking liberties, recorded Jesus camp aswell, but if i watch it now i'll get less than 2 hours sleep, stat the debate and i'll join yo tomorrow

Havermeyer

Just finished watching Taking liberties, recorded Jesus camp aswell, but if i watch it now i'll get less than 2 hours sleep, stat the debate and i'll join yo tomorrow

I think it's more of a discussion now, tbh. Myself and Overheal seem to have cleared up our little mis-understanding. No harm done. But discussion is welcome.

orestes

Just finished watching it now, damn that's some freaky stuff!

The camp meetings are like the Disney World gigs of the Nuremberg Rally world tour! Lunatics!

Doctor DooM

orestes wrote: »

Just finished watching it now, damn that's some freaky stuff!

The camp meetings are like the Disney World gigs of the Nuremberg Rally world tour! Lunatics!

At least it's dead now.

Extremes are always scary, this must be a sobering programme for our christian colleagues

Charlie3dan

Zillah wrote: »

I think he means difficult to watch in the sense of "Oh wow this is painful" as opposed to "Man I wish I could find a copy".

Correct.

There were parts of the documentary that you could consider funny (just to add to what's already been mentioned: the Harry Potter comments) but I couldn't laugh at any of it. Far too disturbing.

Dades

Overheal wrote: »

But its just theres 3 active threads on this: in Christianity, Television, and Here.

Jesus Camp has been discussed here before, too.

This new thread was left open because, thanks to the OP, people knew it was about to be aired, and might would have more to say on the subject (even if the responses were predicable).

Tim Robbins

Well I try to be liberal and accepting of Christians. However, after seeing that documentary it really makes me question this stance I take.

In that documentary they whooped up positive emotion by singing songs, clapping and dancing. This created a sense of security, trust and good will. They then scared the cr*p out of them by all the hell talk. It's a very sophisticated brain washing approach.

However, I asked myself what is the difference between them and other Christian Churches. Most of our friends in the Christianaity forum believe in hell, a literal interpretation of the bible, and salvation only in Jesus Christ. Most of them know christianity very well but very little about any other religion, faith or science. Most Christian Churches usually tell the kids all the nice stuff first and then give them the bad news about hell. The folks in Jesus camp are just more explicit and dramatic. But it is essentially the same message, with some good "Jesus loves you" news first, followed by some scare tactics techniques.

Zillah

JimiTime wrote: »

I just watched it. Possibly the most disturbing thing I've ever seen!!:mad::(

You didn't find it upbuilding?

JimiTime

Zillah wrote: »

You didn't find it upbuilding?

No. You?

Zillah

JimiTime wrote: »

No. You?

I suppose a little? Still sounds like a rather cromulent word.

BJC

SDooM wrote: »

At least it's dead now.

Im afraid it's far from dead, the bottom line is that born-again evangelists are he fastest growing religious movement in America. This is a problem in itself but at least we can say, "well at least they're over there and we're over here".

No such luck, the problem is they all vote in unition and they all vote Republican.

Have you ever wondered how G.W.Bush - the seemingly most hated man in the world - got voted in for a second term?

Therefore, their bible-bashing bullsh*t resonates across the globe and has ramifications on everything from NATO to the "war" in Irag to world wide trade agreements. (Don't forget that Ted Haggard was one of Bush's personal advisors)

Quite a force to be reckoned with.

robindch

BJC wrote: »

Have you ever wondered how G.W.Bush - the seemingly most hated man in the world - got voted in for a second term?

To a certain extent, the disastrous lurch to the right in American politics can be attributed to the mobilization of religious voters in the late seventies and early eighties, when Falwell, Robertson and a few others noticed that a large bloc of easily-motivated fundamentalist christians were self-disenfranchized.

However, I believe that the statistics show that Bush's gain from his smear campaign against Kerry, and his crap-in-your-pants 9/11 scare tactics, outweighed the gain from the use of the christian bloc, by a reasonable margin.

Once in government, Bush's evidence-free approach to life informed various disastrous faith-based initiatives including the subjugation of Iraq, the dismemberment of any federal science that threatened his exercise of policy, the reduction of civil liberties and much else. The New York Review of Books published a good article on the topic:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19590

BJC

Good read, cheers Robindch.

PDN

BJC wrote: »

Im afraid it's far from dead, the bottom line is that born-again evangelists are he fastest growing religious movement in America. This is a problem in itself but at least we can say, "well at least they're over there and we're over here".

No such luck, the problem is they all vote in unition and they all vote Republican.

Absolute false nonsense. Why do people continue to spout these urban legends?

Huge numbers of born again evangelicals (not evangelists) are black and hispanic and as such they predominantly vote Democrat. In fact the percentage of born again evangelicals is higher among blacks and hispanics than it is in the white population of the US.

Just watch the coverage of the presidential primaries. McCain has spoken at very few religious gatherings and rarely mentions his faith. Both Clinton and Obama, however, speak in black evangelical churches almost every Sunday and both are more vocal about their religious faith. In fact it may well be Obama's relationship with his pastor that ends up costing him the Presidency.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

mcain hardly mentions faith because he doesn't want to remind people that he's not mike huckabee, and that he has hagee and fallwell as supporters.

and the percentage may be higher among blacks/hispanics but the numbers among whites are pretty considerably higher.


also, isn't the fastest growing religion in america islam?

PDN

Mordances with wolves wrote: »

mcain hardly mentions faith because he doesn't want to remind people that he's not mike huckabee, and that he has hagee and fallwell as supporters.

Hagee is significant more because of the whole Zionism deal more than being representative of born again evangelicals.

Jerry Falwell, whom McCain famously labeled as "an agent of intolerance" in 2000 has been dead since May 2007. Therefore any discussion of him being a supporter of McCain probably belongs in a seance.

and the percentage may be higher among blacks/hispanics but the numbers among whites are pretty considerably higher.

Of course, because there are more whites in the US than there are blacks and hispanics. However, the fact that millions of black and hispanic evangelicals vote Democrat should nail the lie that "all born again evangelicals as a bloc vote Republican".

also, isn't the fastest growing religion in america islam?

No, that is another urban legend. According to wikipedia the fastest growing religion in both numerical and percentage terms is non-denominational Christianity, followed by Evangelicals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

Percentage wise, the fastest growing non-Christian religion in America is Hinduism.

Galvasean

BJC wrote: »

but at least we can say, "well at least they're over there and we're over here".

No such luck,

An ex-girlfreind of mine became one (for a while). Kids and their fads...

djpbarry

nummnutts wrote: »

I have a fairly good idea that most on that forum would totally disagree with what's going on over there. My family are fairly religious, but they think this type of thing is crazy. I've yet to meet a religious person who thinks this is acceptable.

Hmm...

I seem to recall some of the regulars on the Christianity forum having rather strong objections to their kids partaking in Halloween celebrations. Having said that, I'm not sure they wanted to go so far as to burn Harry Potter at the stake (now matter how much he deserves it).

Doctor DooM

BJC wrote: »

Im afraid it's far from dead, the bottom line is that born-again evangelists are he fastest growing religious movement in America. This is a problem in itself but at least we can say, "well at least they're over there and we're over here".

No such luck, the problem is they all vote in unition and they all vote Republican.

Have you ever wondered how G.W.Bush - the seemingly most hated man in the world - got voted in for a second term?

Therefore, their bible-bashing bullsh*t resonates across the globe and has ramifications on everything from NATO to the "war" in Irag to world wide trade agreements. (Don't forget that Ted Haggard was one of Bush's personal advisors)

Quite a force to be reckoned with.

Just to clarify, I meant very specifically that the camp in the programme was forced to close, thats all.

Galvasean

SDooM wrote: »

Just to clarify, I meant very specifically that the camp in the programme was forced to close, thats all.

Thank goodness for small victories.

Dades

SDooM wrote: »

Just to clarify, I meant very specifically that the camp in the programme was forced to close, thats all.

I heard 'Judas Camp' was much more fun, anyway.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

I heard 'Judas Camp' was much more fun, anyway.

Was it anything like Battle Royal?

BJC

Yeah, except they all ended up hanging themselves....don't know why..:p

Lockstep

That movie made me sick.

I don't get the whole harry potter angle.


Harry Potter cannot be seen as evil or antireligious:
He was born with his powers (not gained through a devilish pact which Christianity teaches as the source of evil witchcraft)
Presumed response: some form of Original sin
BUT Harry was baptised (he has a godfather)
Presumed response and grasping at straws: Harry was baptised in a satanic parody of the sacrament
BUT Harry's parents were buried in a church graveyard in Godric's Hollow.

christophicus

kickoutthejams wrote: »

That movie made me sick.

I don't get the whole harry potter angle.


Harry Potter cannot be seen as evil or antireligious:
He was born with his powers (not gained through a devilish pact which Christianity teaches as the source of evil witchcraft)
Presumed response: some form of Original sin
BUT Harry was baptised (he has a godfather)
Presumed response and grasping at straws: Harry was baptised in a satanic parody of the sacrament
BUT Harry's parents were buried in a church graveyard in Godric's Hollow.

Lol obviously we have a devout Potter fan here :D.

There is no point in trying to rationalise with those kinda people though, they are the witch hunters of our time.

That movie was increadibly disturbing and really did disgust me that people can really be like that, especially what some of the kids were like. It was scary.

JimiTime

Actually, Tim Robbins in the Christianity forum posted that there is no real difference between Christians and the people in the video. Would most share that view?

Charlie3dan

JimiTime wrote: »

Actually, Tim Robbins in the Christianity forum posted that there is no real difference between Christians and the people in the video. Would most share that view?

I read through some of the posts on the christianity forum and from what I remember in general they seem to be quite defensive about the whole thing. I would have thought any rational person regardless of religion would have been repulsed by the documentary.

I think the christians might not agree with how the Jesus camp goes about preeching but not the message itself.

Then you have all the people who call themselves christians but pick and choose which bits they want to believe in. They will distance themselves from this completely and say it's wrong and repulsive.....but they believe in god and the bible and want to go to heaven.

---

>Must resist urge to rant

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

Actually, Tim Robbins in the Christianity forum posted that there is no real difference between Christians and the people in the video. Would most share that view?

That would be a generalisation in my view. There are residents of the Christianity forum who remind me of the Jesus Camp Christians, and there are those who advocate the Jesus is love approach.

Maybe the point TR was making is that you all believe in the same God and follow the same book. But the approach can be so different as to be incomparable.

Lockstep

Charlie3dan wrote: »

. I would have thought any rational person regardless of religion would have been repulsed by the documentary.

*raises hand*


I disagree with all I've seen of Jesus camp:
It's all such a high pressure situation: crying over the microphone, kids screaming etc etc.


I also disagree with the message. Their people might be my people but their God is most certainly not my God.

Havermeyer

Dades wrote: »

That would be a generalisation in my view. There are residents of the Christianity forum who remind me of the Jesus Camp Christians, and there are those who advocate the Jesus is love approach.

Maybe the point TR was making is that you all believe in the same God and follow the same book. But the approach can be so different as to be incomparable.

That would be my perception of what he meant.

I may be wrong, but in my opinion the folks in the Christianity forum who would moreso take the Jesus Camp approach probably picked up their faith at an AA meeting.

Dades

nummnutts wrote: »

I may be wrong, but in my opinion the folks in the Christianity forum who would moreso take the Jesus Camp approach probably picked up their faith at an AA meeting.

An Atheism/Agnosticism meeting? :pac: