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JR one million dollar challenge

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    WHAT ABOUT AN OFFICIAL TEST ,,,OHHH yeah i have the contacts for radio and tv so that will be ok ,,,plus as you may not realise randi has students who carry out his work all over the world,,,even ireland,,
    i dont claim to have paranormal powers but i would be intrested in who does make claims so are you and your friend up for that,,,i can get on it right away,,if you wish


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    Yea we're well up for up it. We could conduct a fairly scientific test if you could provide something paranormal. We could record and log the test.
    However I have to be clear, we have no connections to the James Randi Educational Foundation what so ever. We are not even members. This test would have no official bearing on an application for the prize.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Yea we're well up for up it. We could conduct a fairly scientific test if you could provide something paranormal. We could record and log the test.
    However I have to be clear, we have no connections to the James Randi Educational Foundation what so ever. We are not even members. This test would have no official bearing on an application for the prize.
    Now all you guys need is a willing guinea pig. Good luck with that.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    i am not direspecting anyone here i just would like to see someone from here to burst the experiment wide open if thats possible,poeple are saying no or there is no way it cn be done because of randis protocol,,but if someone claims they can see billy,,or mary at the door and they can pass real info for a test subject,ie a person of choice,plus if they can move things with their mind,,why not show it,,,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭BigglesMcGee


    Can i suggest that Irish Skeptics conduct the test at one of their meetings.

    Also that perhaps there are a series of tests. Possibly of a few people with different abilities. Id love to watch.

    Im sure everyone present could donate €20 or so for a prize if succesful. There would be a huge turnout for it i would think.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    DANNY22XX wrote: »
    i am not direspecting anyone here i just would like to see someone from here to burst the experiment wide open if thats possible,poeple are saying no or there is no way it cn be done because of randis protocol,,but if someone claims they can see billy,,or mary at the door and they can pass real info for a test subject,ie a person of choice,plus if they can move things with their mind,,why not show it,,,

    Well our protocol would be agreed on by both parties as well as the terms for success and failure. All correspondence and results would be published on a argeed upon venue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    Yea we're well up for up it. We could conduct a fairly scientific test if you could provide something paranormal. We could record and log the test.
    However I have to be clear, we have no connections to the James Randi Educational Foundation what so ever. We are not even members. This test would have no official bearing on an application for the prize.
    well your in the south east as am i it shouldnt be to difficult,,,but it would make a great topic for discussion and maybe just maybe get us a little closer to find what the gap is in our research in this feild


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    Well our protocol would be agreed on by both parties as well as the terms for success and failure. All correspondence and results would be published on a argeed upon venue.
    its my job venue managment so a venue is no probs,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    Can i suggest that Irish Skeptics conduct the test at one of their meetings.

    Also that perhaps there are a series of tests. Possibly of a few people with different abilities. Id love to watch.

    Im sure everyone present could donate €20 or so for a prize if succesful. There would be a huge turnout for it i would think.
    well said biggles i know the dublin para con is coming in oct why not have it there you can have the skeptic and the belivers ,im sure the P.I.G.guys would be up for that,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Zillah wrote: »
    Maybe instead of sitting back waiting for science to be so condescending, you go read a book on neuroscience and see the insurmountable evidence that the mind is a product of the brain.

    i think you'll find science still debates where the brain resides. Theres a lot of discussion on the subject. Condescending indeed.

    There are many people who claim to be able to perform amazing feats at will, such as read thoughts, move objects with their mind or divine knowledge from supernatural sources. If they're not lying they should be able to prove it. This is why Randi's challenge so obviously exposes charlatans like Uri Gellar.

    Is his challange just for psychics then? not the paranormal in general. I could have sworn it was to "demonstrate paranormal abilities".

    He's volunteered the money and his hands are tied by science. If someone can prove their paranormal powers he'll have to give them the money.

    And scientists change their mindsets all the time. But those mindsets are changed by evidence, not wild claims supported by no evidence.

    read my other post - proving the paranormal isnt an easy thing to do - well nigh impossible imo. that though, doesnt mean the 'paranormal' doesnt exist (obviously doesnt mean it does exist either).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain.

    for gods sake people, really. thats just so debatable. - afaik, there is as yet no undisputable proof that the brain and mind are separate. just one of those things science has theories about but no absolute proof. Bit like the big bang theory.

    I fear for the world you know when people just believe everything they're told.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    for gods sake people, really. thats just so debatable. - afaik, there is as yet no undisputable proof that the brain and mind are separate. just one of those things science has theories about but no absolute proof. Bit like the big bang theory.

    I fear for the world you know when people just believe everything they're told.

    Pray tell were exactly is the mind then?
    Your probably thinking of the soul which is a completely different thing all together.

    Your right there is no indisputable proof for anything except in math and logic.
    However there is really good evidence for hypotheses.

    Theory in the scientific sense of the word does not mean random idea.
    The word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

    Remember evolution and gravity are theories but it is acceptable to say the fact of gravity or the fact of evolution.

    Also technically its still called the round earth theory and the helio-centric theory.

    Its rather far fetched to always assume every scientist is lying when they show evidence contrary to your person beliefs.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Well I really like the idea of some experiments being run through the forums here, if that's what's being suggested. I know I suggested before running a remote viewing experiment but I got a bit tied up in trying to figure out the maths and probability and what any given result would actually mean. And I suspect you might face the same problems here, trying to create a protocol that gives a conclusive and measurable result. Any ideas what experiments you would like to do and what protocols you would use?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    One test I would suggest, as I believe it can provide clear and measurable results, and should be relatively simple to replicate, is the ganzfeld tests conducted by the koestler parapsychology unit, there's a link here describing the method. (they've changed their site since I last looked so I can't find the detailed papers and results they've gotten.

    edit: one thing I remember though was while they compared results for different types of people, artists vs accountants etc, I don't think they contrasted results for people who believe they have a paranormal ability vs those who do not, which I think could prove interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    stevenmu wrote: »
    Well I really like the idea of some experiments being run through the forums here, if that's what's being suggested. I know I suggested before running a remote viewing experiment but I got a bit tied up in trying to figure out the maths and probability and what any given result would actually mean. And I suspect you might face the same problems here, trying to create a protocol that gives a conclusive and measurable result. Any ideas what experiments you would like to do and what protocols you would use?

    The protocol depend entirely on the nature of the claimed ability.
    For example the remote viewing could quite easily be tested.
    Place three items in a location that the subject agrees on.
    and simply get them to identify the items.
    Repeat several times to get a good sample of results.
    if you were to use a set number of items say for example ten different ones.
    the subject who be expected to get 1/10 or 10% guesses correct.
    so a successful demonstration would need a significantly larger precentage say 40%.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Pray tell were exactly is the mind then?
    Your probably thinking of the soul which is a completely different thing all together.

    Your right there is no indisputable proof for anything except in math and logic.
    However there is really good evidence for hypotheses.

    Theory in the scientific sense of the word does not mean random idea.
    The word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

    Remember evolution and gravity are theories but it is acceptable to say the fact of gravity or the fact of evolution.

    Also technically its still called the round earth theory and the helio-centric theory.

    Its rather far fetched to always assume every scientist is lying when they show evidence contrary to your person beliefs.

    No - im thinking of the mind. if the mind and soul are the same - well thats a completely different theory.

    I made the statement that I was waiting for science to tell me where my mind was (so obviously I dont know myself so cant answer your question). I was being told science knows the mind is in the brain - Im just saying science doesnt actually know that.

    For example, if I lost my memory, a scientist couldnt say 'dont worry, I know where your subconcious mind is, I'll dig those memories back out for you.' If science knew just where the mind resided, then someone could do that. Ergo you cant really say "Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain."

    Its rather far fetched to believe someones unproven theory because they class themselves as a 'scientist' - one may as well just believe everything one is told and not think for oneself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    No - im thinking of the mind. if the mind and soul are the same - well thats a completely different theory.

    I made the statement that I was waiting for science to tell me where my mind was (so obviously I dont know myself so cant answer your question). I was being told science knows the mind is in the brain - Im just saying science doesnt actually know that.

    For example, if I lost my memory, a scientist couldnt say 'dont worry, I know where your subconcious mind is, I'll dig those memories back out for you.' If science knew just where the mind resided, then someone could do that. Ergo you cant really say "Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain."

    Its rather far fetched to believe someones unproven theory because they class themselves as a 'scientist' - one may as well just believe everything one is told and not think for oneself.

    well concider the fact that injury to the brain and defects in the make up of the brain effects what you would class as the mind, memories, personality, bevehaviour language motor function.
    Many of the areas in the brain which control these faculities are known but not well mapped.
    Emotional responses as well as sensory ones can be detected by an EEG.
    Also Just because a doctor is unable to fix certain injuries does not mean the theory is invalid. (medically the brain is very hard to repair). That logic is the same a s saying i cannot fix this clock therefore it does not run on clockwork.
    Evidence is out there if you would just look at the research.
    I wouldn't call it an unproven theory that the mind is a product of the brain.
    But If what you say is true, were is the mind?
    So why is it you believe in the unproven theory of ghosts and what not when haunting have been disproven again and again?
    But really the mind/body debate is much more suited to another discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    Wow this thread moved fast!!! If paranormal effects are real they're fairly easy to test for. No physical effect can be untestable or impossible to be explain using science. I'd be very interested in getting involved in the testing.

    The mind/brain things... The two theories (used loosly) are that the mind is a physical and chemical product of the brain or that the mind is seperate to the brain (dualism). Dualism is totally discredited and very few people believe it outside of religous neurologists who need a seperate "soul" to fit in with their faith. As El_mariachi said the theory is easily testable. If you suffer brain damage does your 'mind' (personality/reasoning/memory) change and the answer is a definite yes. If the mind is seperate to the brain then their would be no change. Claims that the mind resides in the brain and gets damaged as well are unscientific and untestable. They are only proposed by the aforementioned religous people who require the mind be part of the soul and not the body.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭ShellBell1


    Issues?


    I'm going to take a little break and calm down


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    ??? wrote: »
    Wow this thread moved fast!!! If paranormal effects are real they're fairly easy to test for. No physical effect can be untestable or impossible to be explain using science. I'd be very interested in getting involved in the testing.

    The mind/brain things... The two theories (used loosly) are that the mind is a physical and chemical product of the brain or that the mind is seperate to the brain (dualism). Dualism is totally discredited and very few people believe it outside of religous neurologists who need a seperate "soul" to fit in with their faith. As El_mariachi said the theory is easily testable. If you suffer brain damage does your 'mind' (personality/reasoning/memory) change and the answer is a definite yes. If the mind is seperate to the brain then their would be no change. Claims that the mind resides in the brain and gets damaged as well are unscientific and untestable. They are only proposed by the aforementioned religous people who require the mind be part of the soul and not the body.
    This probably needs splitting to another discussion but I have a completely unproven, unscientific idea with regard to the brain, mind issue. Consider the brain to be the physical machine that carries out the actions of the mind (rather than vice versa, as science sees it). We utilise and are, to an extent, energy. I take a wild leap and consider the mind to be an energy that inhabits the same space, but is not the brain itself. Allow then another huge reach, that the energy of the mind controls the brain in some way yet to be understood. Then, if the brain is damaged, or the unknown connection between the mind and brain is disconnected, then the mind is still intact, but the instruction of the will is not passed to the physicality of the brain. Far fetched, ill give you, as I said, Im a spiritualist, not a scientist. But I find it an interesting theory. If it were true it would explain a lot about soul, and the mind surviving death.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    if people can say they do these things why not prove it ,thats all i will say on the matter .so whos up for the test:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    If you suffer brain damage does your 'mind' (personality/reasoning/memory) change and the answer is a definite yes. If the mind is seperate to the brain then their would be no change.

    this really is getting off topic - but thats a tad simplistic. Like, are my arm and spine the same thing? Nope, obviously not - but if you break my spine then theres a good chance my arm wont work .... science doesnt understand enough abuot the mind or the brain yet to work out definitely the relationship between both. there are theories which say that both could be reliant on the other - but as I say, as yet (unless someone can point me in the right direction and I dont mean a book talking about what some scientists believe - i'd prefer some form of scientific fact/theory) there is no definitive proof either way. Bit like the paranormal.

    Anyway - have you had any offer yet then danny?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    iamhunted wrote: »

    Anyway - have you had any offer yet then danny?
    nope and i dont think i will,,,but hey all you do is wait and see, maybe when my time on earth is through i will come back and haunt you and of course, STONER,,,
    and you can have the mill between you,;)deadhorse.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    KtK wrote: »
    This probably needs splitting to another discussion but I have a completely unproven, unscientific idea with regard to the brain, mind issue. Consider the brain to be the physical machine that carries out the actions of the mind (rather than vice versa, as science sees it). We utilise and are, to an extent, energy. I take a wild leap and consider the mind to be an energy that inhabits the same space, but is not the brain itself. Allow then another huge reach, that the energy of the mind controls the brain in some way yet to be understood. Then, if the brain is damaged, or the unknown connection between the mind and brain is disconnected, then the mind is still intact, but the instruction of the will is not passed to the physicality of the brain. Far fetched, ill give you, as I said, Im a spiritualist, not a scientist. But I find it an interesting theory. If it were true it would explain a lot about soul, and the mind surviving death.

    Tad confused. Energy is the ability for something to do work. It is a measurable scalar quantity. It's unit being the Joule. It's not some mystical undifineable thing.

    Also I know I can't attack your beliefs but man are they huge leaps. It is an entirely untestable idea with zero prior plausability. There's also the huge false premise about a) the existance of a soul (unscientific and untestable) and b) the mind surviving death (see previous brackets).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    iamhunted wrote: »
    For example, if I lost my memory, a scientist couldnt say 'dont worry, I know where your subconcious mind is, I'll dig those memories back out for you.' If science knew just where the mind resided, then someone could do that.

    No not at all. There's a huge difference between being able to say where something is and being able to exert effective control over something. We know, for example, exactly where many specific genes are in the chromosome, but that by no means implies that we yet have the capacity to directly control those genes or their effects. A neuroscientist could tell you in quite a lot of detail exactly what parts of the brain control experiences such as love or anger, but that doesn't neccessarily mean we can control who loves who.

    The mistake you're making is assuming that understanding results in control. Understanding is a requirement for control, but is not the same thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    this really is getting off topic - but thats a tad simplistic. Like, are my arm and spine the same thing? Nope, obviously not - but if you break my spine then theres a good chance my arm wont work .... science doesnt understand enough abuot the mind or the brain yet to work out definitely the relationship between both. there are theories which say that both could be reliant on the other - but as I say, as yet (unless someone can point me in the right direction and I dont mean a book talking about what some scientists believe - i'd prefer some form of scientific fact/theory) there is no definitive proof either way. Bit like the paranormal.

    Anyway - have you had any offer yet then danny?
    Thats the thing this idea of the mind being in the brain is not just a few scientist stating the fact, its backed up by experiment and evidence. There is very convincing proof that the mind is contained in the brain.

    Why is it that you are willing to believe anecdotal and inconsistent evidence of haunting yet not in good scientific, verifiable and confirmable evidence in neuroscience?

    There is not any convining proof for the existance of any paranormal phenomenon.
    Several types of phenomenon have been disproved very convincingly
    If paranormal phenomenon did exist there would be conclusive proof especially for phenomenon that people claim to be able to produce.
    This is why i would like to see someone take the test. This is how you get evidence, by experiment.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I've copied all the relevant posts on the mind aspect to a new thread here if people would like to use that to continue discussing that. (let me know if I've missed any :))


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    No volunteers yet?
    The offer still stands.
    Anyone who thinks they can prove any supernatural power, we're will to scientifically test it.
    Still can't offer $1 million though :(


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Havermeyer


    No volunteers yet?
    The offer still stands.
    Anyone who thinks they can prove any supernatural power, we're will to scientifically test it.
    Still can't offer $1 million though :(

    How come? It's not like you're gonna be presented with any evidence any time soon.

    You can't prove/disprove the existence of something that doesn't exist.

    My money says that your is fairly safe tbh. And yes my money can talk, but only when people aren't looking.


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