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JR one million dollar challenge

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  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    MooseJam wrote: »
    This came up in another forum, aren't there psychics round these parts ?, why not go for the million dollars ?

    http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/
    A. This gets asked here every few months. Not an original suggestion by oh, at least 4 years. :)
    B. Randi is only interested in celebrity psychics now.
    C. Im winning the lotto tonight anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    Ha should have guessed it was asked before, well if I was a psychic I'd get out there and make myself a celebrity as a million quid isn't to be sneezed at, I don't think you have to be a huge celebrity just have been mentioned in the papers or the like, I'd get on to the star and have them publish an article about me


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    MooseJam wrote: »
    Ha should have guessed it was asked before, well if I was a psychic I'd get out there and make myself a celebrity as a million quid isn't to be sneezed at, I don't think you have to be a huge celebrity just have been mentioned in the papers or the like, I'd get on to the star and have them publish an article about me
    Ah been there, done that. I somehow think JR has someone more of the calibre of Sylvia Brown in his sights. I doubt he even knows where lil ol Ireland is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    great thread but if i was psychic i would give it a go,maybe the new law against conmen in the psychic feild is based the same idea,,

    i wonder if there is a list of who have failed,,,


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    DANNY22XX wrote: »
    great thread but if i was psychic i would give it a go,maybe the new law against conmen in the psychic feild is based the same idea,,

    i wonder if there is a list of who have failed,,,

    He used to write about those he tested (everyone has failed, obviously). But to be honest theres been as much cynicism about his testing criteria as he holds for psychics.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    DANNY22XX wrote: »
    great thread but if i was psychic i would give it a go,maybe the new law against conmen in the psychic feild is based the same idea,,

    i wonder if there is a list of who have failed,,,
    #

    whats this new law ?


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    MooseJam wrote: »
    #

    whats this new law ?
    Here ya go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I think the average "psychic" (forgive the quotes but I have to) will not maintain that their power is potent enough, consistent enough or effective enough to withstand scientific enquiry. Most psychics say they can sense emotions, associations...all that sort of "light" stuff. You can't test for those sort of things, especially if even the psychic admits its not a consistent power.

    Thats not to say they do have powers, but it does mean that they're incapable of proving it to Randi even if they're actually gifted.

    Now, that said, lying idiots like Sylvia Browne and Uri Gellar can go drown themselves in the Liffey for all I care, bloody charlatans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭BigglesMcGee


    It wouldnt be hard to take part in Randis test at all.

    If a person really had powers its very easy to convince a reporter, then tv interview and then a few scientists and then Randi will be interested.

    We all know the real reason Randi hasnt parted with the prize .... dont we?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam



    We all know the real reason Randi hasnt parted with the prize .... dont we?

    tell me more !


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭BigglesMcGee


    MooseJam wrote: »
    tell me more !

    Because it would be easy to prove supernatural powers under scrutiny if they really existed. But for some strange reason noone has been able to. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭ShellBell1


    DANNY22XX wrote: »
    i wonder if there is a list of who have failed,,,

    Uri Geller failed the test, but he insisted afterwards that the conditions set for his testing were inappropriate. In any case, there's a lot of bad blood between Geller and Randi, forsaking any balanced conclusion to be achieved. I would have to witness Geller in person to decide if he was faking it or not. There are many reports of his tricks being successfully debunked, but I'd have to see for myself really.. For someone who has amassed considerable wealth from supposedly 'faking it' over the course of 30 years (or whatever it is), that really is some feat, though.

    That Scottish medium Derek Ogilvie said last year that he was taking up the Randi challenge. Yet, I never heard about its outcome.. I'm guessing he failed!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    ShellBell1 wrote: »
    Uri Geller failed the test, but he insisted afterwards that the conditions set for his testing were inappropriate.

    Conditions for success and failure are agreed upon by the applicant and Randi before they begin to ensure that just such a ridiculous excuse would be obviously the cheap shot it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭ShellBell1


    Zillah wrote: »
    Conditions for success and failure are agreed upon by the applicant and Randi before they begin to ensure that just such a ridiculous excuse would be obviously the cheap shot it is.

    Yes, I have heard of conditions being agreed upon by both parties beforehand. I simply said that Geller had said afterwards that the conditions for testing were inappropriate. Maybe he is pretty much chancing his arm with that suggestion, maybe he isn't?? Dunno.

    Unless you were actually present at one of these Randi tests yourself, you can only speculate what goes on, or at best, base your opinion on what Randi says of his tests. He could be taking cheap shots too? How are we to know for sure in his case as well?

    Either of them are likely to be fraudulent. We can only surmise what happens based on secondhand information which, frankly, isn't the most reliable at times..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭BigglesMcGee


    I know several people (including myself) who can bend spoons ala Gellar.

    And noone claims it is supernatural. Its a trick and a pretty easy one at that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭ShellBell1


    I know several people (including myself) who can bend spoons ala Gellar.

    And noone claims it is supernatural. Its a trick and a pretty easy one at that.

    I've always been aware that 'ordinary folk' (!) can bend spoons very easily. 'Spoon bending parties' are especially popular in America. Spoon bending isn't terribly productive. God, who f*cking cares anyway? Silly crap. F*ck Randi, f*ck Geller, and f*ck spoon bending.

    F*ck it all!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭BigglesMcGee


    ShellBell1 wrote: »
    I've always been aware that 'ordinary folk' (!) can bend spoons very easily. 'Spoon bending parties' are especially popular in America. Spoon bending isn't terribly productive. God, who f*cking cares anyway? Silly crap. F*ck Randi, f*ck Geller, and f*ck spoon bending.

    F*ck it all!!

    Issues?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭amazingemmet


    I know several people (including myself) who can bend spoons ala Gellar.

    And noone claims it is supernatural. Its a trick and a pretty easy one at that.

    Spork bending is where its at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    ShellBell1 wrote: »
    Unless you were actually present at one of these Randi tests yourself, you can only speculate what goes on

    I don't need to speculate, I can extrapolate. Randi is a scientist and a sceptic. I can therefore extrapolate that his test would follow the scientific method which has shown itself to be the most reliable method for finding correct answers about the world.
    Either of them are likely to be fraudulent.

    No, its possible they could both be fraudulent. Not "likely". Gallar is a man who claims to have psychic powers and actively seeks to financially profit from those claims. He is very likely to be fraudulent. Randi is a sceptic and a scientist who seeks to debunk people who make false claims about their abilities. He is unlikely to be fraudulent.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Zillah wrote: »
    Randi is a sceptic and a scientist who seeks to debunk people who make false claims about their abilities. He is unlikely to be fraudulent.
    ...although you could that he is more likely to be fraudulent in an effort not to hand over a million dollars and have to completely alter his mindset... not saying thats the case, but you could argue it all the same.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭DAEDULUS


    KtK wrote: »
    ...although you could that he is more likely to be fraudulent in an effort not to hand over a million dollars and have to completely alter his mindset... not saying thats the case, but you could argue it all the same.

    then surely he wouldnt offer it in the first place?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    There seems to be this idea that sceptics and in particular Randi are dogmatic and 'closed minded'. It's a totally false premise. 99% of th sceptics I know are totally open to the idea of psychic powers and all other paranormal things if someone would present compelling evidence. They are all extraordinary claims and extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. And remember kids... the plural of anectdote is anecdotes, not evidence!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    im sure this topic has been discussed a zillion billion catrillion times on this forum. OK, well not that many, but more than once.

    The problem I have with randis offer is how exactly can anyone prove anything paranormal? You'd have to being him to somewhere where there is apparent paranormal activity and have it happen right in front of him and then have it all happen in such a way that you could prove it could only have been paranormal. thats a damned tall order.

    This is more down to cheap publicity imo - offer a million quid for something thats impossible to prove (at present - you never know what the future holds) and then when it cant be proved say it doesnt exist. Yeah, very very open minded alright.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Im still waiting for science to prove where my mind is, but that doesnt mean I dont have one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    iamhunted wrote: »
    Im still waiting for science to prove where my mind is, but that doesnt mean I dont have one.

    Maybe instead of sitting back waiting for science to be so condescending, you go read a book on neuroscience and see the insurmountable evidence that the mind is a product of the brain.
    The problem I have with randis offer is how exactly can anyone prove anything paranormal?

    There are many people who claim to be able to perform amazing feats at will, such as read thoughts, move objects with their mind or divine knowledge from supernatural sources. If they're not lying they should be able to prove it. This is why Randi's challenge so obviously exposes charlatans like Uri Gellar.
    KtK wrote: »
    ...although you could that he is more likely to be fraudulent in an effort not to hand over a million dollars and have to completely alter his mindset... not saying thats the case, but you could argue it all the same.

    He's volunteered the money and his hands are tied by science. If someone can prove their paranormal powers he'll have to give them the money.

    And scientists change their mindsets all the time. But those mindsets are changed by evidence, not wild claims supported by no evidence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    im sure this topic has been discussed a zillion billion catrillion times on this forum. OK, well not that many, but more than once.

    The problem I have with randis offer is how exactly can anyone prove anything paranormal? You'd have to being him to somewhere where there is apparent paranormal activity and have it happen right in front of him and then have it all happen in such a way that you could prove it could only have been paranormal. thats a damned tall order.

    This is more down to cheap publicity imo - offer a million quid for something thats impossible to prove (at present - you never know what the future holds) and then when it cant be proved say it doesnt exist. Yeah, very very open minded alright.

    Not exact a tall order. If your claiming to produce an effect (telekinesis, dowsing, mind reading etc.) it would be easy to observe the effect occurring.
    First you must eliminate the possibility of cheating (both conscious and unconscious) for example in testing telekinesis placing the target to be move in a glass bottle so the subject can't blow on it. If the effect is happening through a paranormal means it would be pretty easy to prove.
    The JREF tests are agreed upon by both parties all the way through, no change can be made to the protocol unless both parties agree. What conditions mean a failure or a success are also agreed upon.

    You can also request Randi not attend the test (a JREF representative will conduct the test) to stop his negative vibrations.

    The fact no one can prove any paranormal power does not bode well for their existence. But if someone could offer some substantial proof (say reading a persons mind perfectly, on demand) a lot of people would take claims a little more seriously.

    Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain.
    As someone who is beginning to study psychology (as an amateur, not a student) could you recommend what to read to find out more about that theory above?

    I think its clear from what I post here that I am a believer in certain elements of the paranormal. However, I have a rational brain (mostly) and if by some weird chance I was creating these effects myself, I would want to know how Im doing it and whats going on. This is why Ive begun to learn about psychology, to see if what I do has a purely psychological basis, or not. Further study of the mechanisms of the brain would complement that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭DANNY22XX


    i have emailed the said parties to see if they could send some more info on the subject.plus i ask for our very own little test for here ,,,so its up to you who would you like to be in charge of the test,,when i get the details i will send them to the chosen parties,,as i have been informed the test is open to all and who conduct it ,,,,plus there has to be an audience and video present if some can pass they would have to reproduce the activity for them,,so whos up for it,,
    http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43
    the list so far,,,,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    KtK wrote: »
    As someone who is beginning to study psychology (as an amateur, not a student) could you recommend what to read to find out more about that theory above?

    I think its clear from what I post here that I am a believer in certain elements of the paranormal. However, I have a rational brain (mostly) and if by some weird chance I was creating these effects myself, I would want to know how Im doing it and whats going on. This is why Ive begun to learn about psychology, to see if what I do has a purely psychological basis, or not. Further study of the mechanisms of the brain would complement that.

    Not a psychology buff but I'd imagine any book on neuro-science. All also the fact personality, memory and behaviour can be changed by damage to the brain.

    But there are several well studied psychlogical effect that explain many apparent paranormal effects.
    http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html
    http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html
    http://skepdic.com/selectiv.html
    http://skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html
    http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
    http://skepdic.com/magicalthinking.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    DANNY22XX wrote: »
    i have emailed the said parties to see if they could send some more info on the subject.plus i ask for our very own little test for here ,,,so its up to you who would you like to be in charge of the test,,when i get the details i will send them to the chosen parties,,as i have been informed the test is open to all and who conduct it ,,,,plus there has to be an audience and video present if some can pass they would have to reproduce the activity for them,,so whos up for it,,
    http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43
    the list so far,,,,

    Are you claiming to have a testable paranormal power?
    You are of course aware that one of the rules of the challenge is that you must have some media exposure.(TV, radio, Newspaper).
    And that the JREF won't cover travel expenses.

    As an unofficial test me and a friend would be well up for testing you.
    Unfortunatly we don't have a million dolars to offer:(


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