ELVs get the green light

marco_polo

And so after much speculation, 13 of the 22 ELVs get the green light for a worldwide trial next season.

At least the offside line at the tackle and hands in the ruck have not been included.

http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3943_3504932,00.html

Stev_o

*looks throughs papers to find a new sport* Think i might take up a interest in golf now that rugby will be turned into mound of crap for a year. Sad sad day in the sport wont be the same


* At least Stuart Barnes will have something to moan about on rugby club oh joy

toomevara

marco_polo wrote: »

And so after much speculation, 13 of the 22 ELVs get the green light for a worldwide trial next season.

At least the offside line at the tackle and hands in the ruck have not been included.

http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3943_3504932,00.html

Great, three different versions of union played around the world next year...what in the name of jaysis are these people playin' at? Haven't they watched the frankly risible s14 this year? Hands in the ruck should have been implemented, thats one of the ones I like....goodbye rolling maul, it was good while it lasted....

davyjose

Disgraceful.

I echo Stev O, Rugby is becoming an embarrassment. It's one of the oldest Sports in the world and it still hasn't settled on any set rules. Joke!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

dc69

If anyone saw the rugby club there,they said only 4 significant ones have been introduced.13 have been refused.

the main one is that you can pull a maul down:)

they didnt think they were too bad and they said that the worst ones were refused.So its not all doom and gloom.

toomevara wrote: »

Great, three different versions of union played around the world next year...what in the name of jaysis are these people playin' at?

the new rules come into force in autumn for everyone,how will there be 3 different types of union played?

Sangre

this is way more significant than the lisbon treaty.

Sandwich

davyjose wrote: »

Disgraceful.
I echo Stev O, Rugby is becoming an embarrassment. It's one of the oldest Sports in the world and it still hasn't settled on any set rules. Joke!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Not sure about the new rules, but gotta disagree with evolving rules being a problem. I think its one of the strengths of the game that it is not afraid to adjust laws,
- the increase in points for tries, twice
- no yards gained for kicking out on the full outside your 22
- no scrum half dummy throws
- no more clean catch, heel in the ground mark
- yellow cards
for example, are undoubted improvements to me.

Podge_irl

dc69 wrote: »

the new rules come into force in autumn for everyone,how will there be 3 different types of union played?

The S14 will continue as is next year as seemingly it would be "unfair" to make changes to the ELV variations that they are playing. Also some more ELVs will be trialled in an as yet unnamed NH competition. How the **** international tests and HEC are going to not be disrupted by this is beyond me.

RuggieBear

Zzippy

Let me get this straight. So now, if you lie on the ball and prevent the tackler releasing, you only give a way a free kick? And if you're not pinged for it, and the ref deems the ball unplayable, you get the free kick?
Rucks are going to be a disaster area....

toomevara

dc69 wrote: »

the new rules come into force in autumn for everyone,how will there be 3 different types of union played?

From the planet rugby article quoted in the OP;

"This means that three versions of the game will be in operation across the global over the course of the next year, but IRB chairman Bernard Lapasset was not perturbed - he said the agreements reached at the council meeting in Dublin on Thursday amounted to a "vindication" of the IRB's vision. "

Podge_irl

Zzippy wrote: »

Let me get this straight. So now, if you lie on the ball and prevent the tackler releasing, you only give a way a free kick? And if you're not pinged for it, and the ref deems the ball unplayable, you get the free kick?
Rucks are going to be a disaster area....

Nope, that's one of the new laws not being trialled throughout the NH, but will be trialled in an "elite NH competition" (I'm hoping ECC or EDF). It's a ****ing jokeshop.

anonymous_joe

This is verging on idiocy. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Cool_CM

"Trial"? How can you expect players to get used to one set of rules for a year, and then if it is deemed not to work revert back to the old ones? for god's sake either bring them in or don't, it's not like they haven't been experimented with until now , the southern hemisphere must have found out whether they work or not. Truly shambolic:mad:

EdgarAllenPoo

I know I've said this before (and it annoyed a few people here) but is it just me or are a lot of these ELVS just a concession to the Aussies rabid obsession with rugby league.

It's simple enforce the laws we have now and things will be grand. That's the main problem, refs just can't be arsed to enforce a lot of the laws that are in place so they think that by repackaging them they'll actually start doing their job properly. I won't happen and it will make an awful lot of games an absolute chore to watch.

Amz

So we'll all be playing with these new Laws in August too? Crikey I'm still learning the current ones.

Snickers Man

OK from the horse's mouth (ie the IRB website) here is the situation on ELVs
(My comments in italics)


Those to be trialled worldwide

Assistant Referees

* Assistant Referees can assist referees in any manner required when appointed by a match organiser

Excellent! A long overdue administrative change. Should have happened ages ago. Hope they concentrate on ENFORCING the offside lines and also the blindside binding at scrums, if there are any.


Posts and flags around the field

* The corner posts are no longer considered to be in touch in-goal except when a ball is grounded against the post


Good. Should have been done long ago. Reduce the need for automatic referral to TMO every time there's a try in the corner. Again a small tweak that enhances the existing shape of the game


Lineout and throw

* If a team puts the ball back into their own 22 and the ball is subsequently kicked directly into touch there is no gain of ground

will have about zero effect. Most kicks from the 22 are into space anyway. The real bane of the game is the "Roland Garros" effect where balls are kicked from full back to full back at nauseum like a clay court tennis rally until somebody makes a mistake. This change will do NOTHING to affect that

* A quick throw may be thrown in straight or towards the throwing team's own goal line
* There is no restriction on the number of players who can participate in the lineout from either side (minimum of two)


One that will need to be trialled to see what will happen. My fear is that, along with the ability to collapse the maul, this will lead to a further reduction in the importance of a lineout as a means of concentrating forwards in a group. If the maul is going to be devalued, why would you have all seven forwards (assuming a hooker is throwing in) concentrated at the line out? Why not just string them across the field so that there are no gaps from touch line to touch line?
A further shift of the shape of the game towards rugby league, in my opinion.

* The receiver in a lineout must stand 2 metres back from the lineout
* The player who is in opposition to the player throwing in the ball may stand in the area between the 5 metre line and touch line but must be 2 metres away from the lineout
* Lineout players may pre-grip a jumper before the ball is thrown in
* The lifting of lineout jumpers is permitted

is there anything new in any of that?

Maul

* Players are able to defend a maul by pulling it down
* Remove reference in Law to heads and shoulders not to be lower than hips


THE SPAWN OF SATAN!!!!!!! WHY WOULD ANYBODY COMMIT TO A MAUL IF YOU CAN JUST HAUL IT DOWN?

Again, we are back to the abacus phenomenon of two lines of players strung across the field. No forwards, no backs. No SPACE to play in.

TERRIBLE idea!!!!!!


Scrum

* Introduction of an offside line five metres behind the hindmost feet of the scrum
* Scrum half offside lines (must be in close proximity to the scrum as present Law or must retreat five metres)


Could be positive. Could yield some space for backs to play in. Would be a damn sight more positive if the one about pulling down the maul was left out..

ELVs to be trialled in an elite Northern Hemisphere competition

Sanctions

* For all offences other than offside, not entering through the gate, and Law 10 - Foul Play, the sanction is a Free Kick


Absolute crap. Intended to take referee's discretion out of the penalty-awarding process so that the influence of dead-eye goal kickers like Wilkinson, Lynagh, Fox, Campbell is reduced. Will do nothing of the kind. Will just shift it to another area.
Namely, how many times must an offence be repeated before it is upgraded from free kick to penalty for "persistent infringement"? Totally up to the referee. BAD IDEA.

Tackle and ruck

* If the ball is unplayable at the breakdown, the side that did not take the ball into contact will receive a Free Kick

Maul

* If a maul becomes unplayable, the team not in possession at the start of the maul receives a Free Kick

Bye bye scrum. Bye bye prop forwards. Bye bye fat boys.

Personally, I'm grieved.

Of the ones that are NOT being trialled just yet but sent back for "further analysis" I quite like the one about the Offside line occuring immediately at the tackle.

It simplifies the offside law and rewards fast play at the expense of slow play. Will need to be tough on "lazy runners" though, and that's no bad thing.

Pity it's not being trialled yet.

Stev_o

The 5meter offside rule at scrum time is helping those who cant scrum ( Funny how the idea was Presented by Australia.......) it means that even if your scrum in being murdered your backs still have space to play.


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=S54fHOLVulY

^ Seriously its things like that that make me sick to my stomach

Tim Robbins

Stev_o wrote: »

The 5meter offside rule at scrum time is helping those who cant scrum ( Funny how the idea was Presented by Australia.......) it means that even if your scrum in being murdered your backs still have space to play.


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=S54fHOLVulY

^ Seriously its things like that that make me sick to my stomach

That's going to be a real pain in the hole to ref at lower levels. How a ref is supposed to ref that without touch judges is beyond me?

I mean the hole crocked in thing is because ref is looking at the bind.

marco_polo

Stev_o wrote: »

The 5meter offside rule at scrum time is helping those who cant scrum ( Funny how the idea was Presented by Australia.......) it means that even if your scrum in being murdered your backs still have space to play.


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=S54fHOLVulY

^ Seriously its things like that that make me sick to my stomach

Fortunately that one isn't in the package for the NH, will still be in the S14 though.

Also I have seen no mention of what rules will be used for test matches.


New Rugby ball has been proposed for the ELV introduction.
http://www.theeastterrace.com/elvball.shtml

Rumour has it that the "Elite NH competition" selected for the additional ELVs rules is the Challenged Cup.

toomevara

I really dont see the need to have this stuff 'trialled' in the NH. It's already been trialled in an elite union competition; the s14, and it categorically hasn't worked....the proof of the pudding has been in the eating..

The rugby has been rubbish, crowds are voting with their feet and attendances are through the floor....The IRB merely need to turn on Sky of a saturday or Sunday morn and feast upon the dog's breakfast that the game has become...

Meanwhile in this part of the world the union game, under the current ruleset is thriving like its never thrived before. We're never going to have the populist appeal of soccer and frankly I don't ever want rugby to go down that road...silly business this whole thing....

Snickers Man

marco_polo wrote: »

Fortunately that one isn't in the package for the NH, will still be in the S14 though.

No. That is one of the changes that have been instituted world wide.

il gatto

Bernard Lapasset can kiss my hairy hole. And Stellenbosch. And Robbie Deans. Not only will this remove the use of the maul by making it useless, it will also make it dangerous if used.
Tinkering with lineout numbers will also make them less of a factor in the game as well.
Moving the offside line 5m back from the scrum might create some space in dogged matches á la Connacht v. Dragons or Italy v. Scotland (usually) but quality backs never needed "artificial" space created for them before.
I found the S14 messy, disjointed and poor tactically this year with only a few exceptions. If the HEC or 6N degenerates into such a league style game with teams of backs runing at each other and flinging the ball around like a hot brick, there's no point in watching. You'll always be wondering what the result would've been if the laws hadn't been f@@ked.
F*** the Aussies and the SH in general who've come out in favour of this. It's too much, too quick and some of those changes are unacceptable and unsustainable. If this is as bad as I think it will be, people should consider boycotting games. It's very extreme and I'd never like to see an Irish team play without support, but maybe it'd be the lesser of two evils to save the game we love? See how sure of themselves the IRB are when they start losing ticket sales and viewership figures.
I love nothing more than watching the fatties bash it out up front with occasional flashes of blinding attacking from the backs of a Saturday afternoon. I fear the day when I watch an England match at Twickenham and Vainikolo is man of the match in a quick game of all out running rugby:mad::mad:.

JWAD

toomevara wrote: »

I really dont see the need to have this stuff 'trialled' in the NH. It's already been trialled in an elite union competition; the s14, and it categorically hasn't worked....the proof of the pudding has been in the eating..

toomevara wrote: »

The rugby has been rubbish, crowds are voting with their feet and attendances are through the floor....The IRB merely need to turn on Sky of a saturday or Sunday morn and feast upon the dog's breakfast that the game has become...

The crowds have been decreasing way before any ELVs were trialled. In NZ, last year there were no ABs in the comp and this year, the beginning of a flood of ABs excused til RWC time heading North to cash in on oversized pay packets from teams forgetting about player development and going for the short-term glory. The NPC has been drying up over the past five years. The Super14s is running too familiar in its format.

toomevara wrote: »

Meanwhile in this part of the world the union game, under the current ruleset is thriving like its never thrived before. We're never going to have the populist appeal of soccer and frankly I don't ever want rugby to go down that road...silly business this whole thing....

So you want to sit on laurels and expect the game to naturally stay 'thriving'?
When the games were in rude health in the SH and stuck in a wholly amateur rut here in the NH, did you welcome any changes to the game back then? I'm talking 90s here. The game comprises of countries in the top flight from both hemispheres. Without all the top flight unions doing well, the game reverts to a local affair and sweet eff all else.
The 'I'm All Right, Jack' mindset does nothing for the sport of rugby union's place and I, personally, am glad that the IRB is looking at the bigger picture with its running of the sport.

Thankfully you're not in rugby administration (and I dont mean that in a snide manner, by the way).

Worrytahs

il gatto wrote: »

I found the S14 messy, disjointed and poor tactically this year with only a few exceptions

The same could be said for the ML, ERC and the RWC.

il gatto wrote: »

If the HEC or 6N degenerates into such a league style game with teams of backs runing at each other and flinging the ball around like a hot brick, there's no point in watching. You'll always be wondering what the result would've been if the laws hadn't been f@@ked

It is not a "league-style" game. If you watched the Super 14s as you claim you have done, you'd see that. A "league-style" game won the Wallabies the RWC in 1999, England a Grand Slam, 100% tour victories and RWC in 2003 Wales won a Grand Slam this year on "league-style" gameplans ie. based on clinical defence.
Why do you think a crowd claps with approval when a team opts for a further set-piece at penalty time in a game instead of another 3 pointer? There are still lineouts, mauls and scrums (more scrums actually) and as far as non-stop ping-pong kicking goes, have a look at the ERC games this year..............

Worrytahs

Stev_o wrote: »

The 5meter offside rule at scrum time is helping those who cant scrum ( Funny how the idea was Presented by Australia.......) it means that even if your scrum in being murdered your backs still have space to play.

Where did you hear that the ARU presented this law?
It opens space in-field for the attacking side. Actually favours many NH sides who use drift defence.

toomevara

JWAD wrote: »

So you want to sit on laurels and expect the game to naturally stay 'thriving'?

Ummm well no of course not, with all due respect, you're wilfully misinterpreting what I'm saying..There's nothing wrong with the game of rugby itself, but of course the 'product' - hate that term but anyhoo- needs to be agressively marketed and promoted. No one's talking about sitting on any 'Laurels' except your good self...

Competitions like the HC are going stratospheric in the NH on the back of superb passionate rugby and brilliant promotion of the competition. The ELV's and their adoption will have a neligible affect on the games popularity in the NH, only an opinion mind...but hey thats what the boards are all about last time I checked. I categorically do not want to see rugby evolving along the lines of the S14 up here..because frankly the game is rubbish and beginning to diverge vastly from what I consider to be the fundamental ethos of union.
[/QUOTE]

When the games were in rude health in the SH and stuck in a wholly amateur rut here in the NH, did you welcome any changes to the game back then?

Again,with respect, you're off roaming in the gloaming. there is no comparison between the the adoption of professionalism and the ELVs...The ELVS are changing the fundamental nature of the game of union..And for the record before you start picking an argument where there is none... I was a full advocate of professionalism, best thing ever happened to RU and the SH nations showed us the way in that sphere

The 'I'm All Right, Jack' mindset does nothing for the sport of rugby union's place and I, personally, am glad that the IRB is looking at the bigger picture with its running of the sport.

Nonsense, I'm passionate about the global devlopment of rugby union, just dont see the need to tinker with the fundamentals of the game as its constituted, it aint broke..dont fix it...simple as that

Thankfully you're not in rugby administration (and I dont mean that in a snide manner, by the way).

Indeed, from my perspective I could say the same of you. but I won't because that would be juvenile, patronising and, well... just a tad too personal for my liking.

bleg

3 different versions of them to be trialled. ****ing retarded.

il gatto

Worrytahs wrote: »

The same could be said for the ML, ERC and the RWC.


It is not a "league-style" game. If you watched the Super 14s as you claim you have done, you'd see that. A "league-style" game won the Wallabies the RWC in 1999, England a Grand Slam, 100% tour victories and RWC in 2003 Wales won a Grand Slam this year on "league-style" gameplans ie. based on clinical defence.
Why do you think a crowd claps with approval when a team opts for a further set-piece at penalty time in a game instead of another 3 pointer? There are still lineouts, mauls and scrums (more scrums actually) and as far as non-stop ping-pong kicking goes, have a look at the ERC games this year..............

"Claim"? Because my view of the S14 differs from yours, I must not have watched it? What have the Wallabies WC, an English Grand Slam, tour victories and their WC have anything to do with the ELVs? They all won those matches under the existing laws which shows different approaches to rugby thrive under the existing laws. And besides, Englands game was a million miles from league. They won on a great pack and an amazing fly half.
And more scrums with a gulf between the defensive/offensive line is not required or wanted by most fans.

Stev_o

If it goes to the 6N picture the Italy vs Scotland match Italy's hard work could be undone by these rules

Worrytahs

il gatto wrote: »

"Claim"? Because my view of the S14 differs from yours, I must not have watched it? What have the Wallabies WC, an English Grand Slam, tour victories and their WC have anything to do with the ELVs? They all won those matches under the existing laws which shows different approaches to rugby thrive under the existing laws. And besides, Englands game was a million miles from league. They won on a great pack and an amazing fly half

They won playing Rugby League tactics based on defence. You brought up rugby league so I gave you an instance or two where it really was in evidence of being in the game.

To answer your question: The ELVs have nothing to do with it (rugby league).

il gatto

Worrytahs wrote: »

They won playing Rugby League tactics based on defence. You brought up rugby league so I gave you an instance or two where it really was in evidence of being in the game.

To answer your question: The ELVs have nothing to do with it (rugby league).

That's just my opinion, but the instances you've cited have nothing to do with league either. Especially in the case of England.

Worrytahs

il gatto wrote: »

That's just my opinion, but the instances you've cited have nothing to do with league either. Especially in the case of England.

I'd say John Muggleton and Phil Larder might disagree with you. Especially Phil Larder.

Peter B

Not a fan of the new rules. Have watched a good few Super 14 games this season.

Was watching the Force v the Chiefs yesterday. Amazing finish to the match but really didn't enjoy the style of play.

Firstly I didn't like the turnovers. Way too many turnovers. There was no consistency to the play. No team were able to slowly work their way up the field by taking it into contact, rucking and then recycling to go again. Opposition players just put their hands in and slowed it down giving away a free kick.

The defence
The defending backline was littered with forwards. It was about 10 players (minimum) wide and there was little space. As soon as a player went into contact the tackler or first man there would put his hand in to spoil the ball. No more than 2 or 3 players would join the defending ruck as they were not worried about a pick and drive, creating a maul as this would just get pulled down anyway by the few players already there. They also wanted to keep players out to defend against the high possibility of giving away a free kick.

The attack
Since there was less space around the pitch the attacking line would not stand so deep. They prefered a relitavely flat line where they tried to off load in the tackle, putting their team mate into space. Since there was so little room there were realtively no jinky runs or sidesteps or just beating the man on the outside. It was all just players trying to bosh through the defence.


The main problem I have with the new rules is it is an attempt to make rugby more flashy with higher scoring games. This is to please the tabloid public who like seeing trys and do not appreciate a good game where teams try control territory, possession and discipline.

I find soccer extremely boring. Still I wouldn't suddenly become interested if they tried to "cheapen" the game by making the goals twice as wide just so more goals are scored.

toomevara

Once again a discussion around the ELV's throws up the old saw that Union will become more like the dreaded League (god save us from the evil thing) if adopted.

Can we just categorically move away from this idea please...the structureless, anarchic, freeflowing, but souless rugby caused by the ELVs in the S14 is absolutely nothing like rugby league,as anyone who loves and watches the 13 man code will instantly recognise....

The EL version of the game is diluting the Union code, turning it into Rugby-Lite NOT Rugby League...the ELV's effectively mean the end of the lineout, the end of the maul and the opening up of the game without any of the structure imposed by the 'set of 6' in league. This, combined with the fundamental uncertainty around the ruck area in union (lest face it its virtually un-reffable and open to vastly differing interpretations) means the game is in danger of becoming a shambles....

Anyone who wants to genuinely see what a game of modern rugby league is like could do worse than turn on Sky this eve (6:30) and watch St.Helens V Wigan. After, ask yourself which is better...the Wigan game or some powderpuff, souless s14 'clash'...and then ask yourself is the s14 ELV model how you really want to see Munster or Leinster forced to play next year?..ugh..the very thought turns me stomach!

Danger_Dave

toomevara wrote: »

Anyone who wants to genuinely see what a game of modern rugby league is like could do worse than turn on Sky this eve (6:30) and watch St.Helens V Wigan. After, ask yourself which is better...the Wigan game or some powderpuff, souless s14 'clash'...and then ask yourself is the s14 ELV model how you really want to see Munster or Leinster forced to play next year?..ugh..the very thought turns me stomach!

+1 . Im not Rugby league's biggest fan, however it can be very good. On the super 14 with the new laws, its not Amercian football not matter how hard they try. Ive watched it and ive noticed you get some cracking games but some really terrible ones.

P.S regarding the new rules , if you handle in the ruck its a free kick . However repeated offenses should become in penalties, does that ever happen? not that Ive seen.

dc69

Danger_Dave wrote: »

+1 . Im not Rugby league's biggest fan, however it can be very good. On the super 14 with the new laws, its not Amercian football not matter how hard they try. Ive watched it and ive noticed you get some cracking games but some really terrible ones.

P.S regarding the new rules , if you handle in the ruck its a free kick . However repeated offenses should become in penalties, does that ever happen? not that Ive seen.

in saying that alot of the lower super 14 teams are not very good,so your better looking at mid table to top games,most of the SA teams are ****.

I urge everyone to make sure they check out at least 1 crusaders game before it ends,it will change how you look at rugby.The most impressive team I have ever seen,even more impressive than the all blacks.

Stev_o

dc69 wrote: »

in saying that alot of the lower super 14 teams are not very good,so your better looking at mid table to top games,most of the SA teams are ****.

I urge everyone to make sure they check out at least 1 crusaders game before it ends,it will change how you look at rugby.The most impressive team I have ever seen,even more impressive than the all blacks.

They arent do anything new most of the top NH teams play better rugby then them. And do bear in mind that most of the teams they play are sub par

gcgirl

If you want to play League play league if you want to play Union play Union ! The are turning the game of Rugby Union which i love in to a version of Rugby League ! Myself and a few others were commiting on the rules change and we are not liking the ELV's at all !!

il gatto

toomevara wrote: »

Once again a discussion around the ELV's throws up the old saw that Union will become more like the dreaded League (god save us from the evil thing) if adopted.

Can we just categorically move away from this idea please...the structureless, anarchic, freeflowing, but souless rugby caused by the ELVs in the S14 is absolutely nothing like rugby league,as anyone who loves and watches the 13 man code will instantly recognise....

The EL version of the game is diluting the Union code, turning it into Rugby-Lite NOT Rugby League...the ELV's effectively mean the end of the lineout, the end of the maul and the opening up of the game without any of the structure imposed by the 'set of 6' in league. This, combined with the fundamental uncertainty around the ruck area in union (lest face it its virtually un-reffable and open to vastly differing interpretations) means the game is in danger of becoming a shambles....

Anyone who wants to genuinely see what a game of modern rugby league is like could do worse than turn on Sky this eve (6:30) and watch St.Helens V Wigan. After, ask yourself which is better...the Wigan game or some powderpuff, souless s14 'clash'...and then ask yourself is the s14 ELV model how you really want to see Munster or Leinster forced to play next year?..ugh..the very thought turns me stomach!

We can categorically do lots of things, but you shouldn't dismiss people who feel Union IS going down the route of league as regards style of play, and why you'd want to emulate a game that's had 100+ years to establish itself and yet only has two competitive countries is beyond me. Apart from big messy hits, it is Rugby Lite. We've all probably watched it. My own dalience was when Jonathon Davies turned coat. I watched it for a year or two and since then have only had a passing interest. Having watched both league and this years S14, I can see similarities which didn't exist before.
Eric Larder and John Muggleton used their experience from league to coach in Union. You can't make much from either code and stuff it into the other with the laws as they are (were).
I was very happy with most of the laws as they were. Most fans seem to be. There's a minority who are willing to embrace the ELVs. Does that mean we'll be writing off an entire season of rugby and putting it down to experience? There's nothing wrong with tweaking them when there's an issue. This is mass reconstruction.

Pinetree Boy

I think care needs to be taken in evaluating ELVs based on Super 14. To be honest the Super 14 has been crap and I put it down to the team's approach more then EVLs. A lot of the teams (e.g. Hurricanes, Chiefs, Force and Blues) are notorious for playing unstructured helter skelter rugby and in the past haven't needed the ELVs to do stupid things.

Personally-

I like the scrum rule and haven't heard too many complaints. It gives backlines and back rows the space to cook up moves which is a positive.

I like the extra opportunity for quick lineouts.

The carried back behind 22 law is a bit of a waste of time. Teams that have tended to counter-attack in the past still do and those that kick still do just not for touch on the full. Doesn't add much in my opinion.

I am not sure about the short arm penalties. For me hasn't added a lot.

The real key rule hasn't been seen yet. That is the use of hands at the ruck. So can't comment but we all know this area is a mess. I may be old but for me the problem could be solved by turning back the clock. NO hands in a ruck at all just "rucking". This was the rule I played under for 30 years and can't remember the number of stoppages and penalties we see today.

Worrytahs

il gatto wrote: »

Apart from big messy hits, it is Rugby Lite. We've all probably watched it. My own dalience was when Jonathon Davies turned coat

"Rugby-Lite"?? Have you ever even played the game? "Lite" is something it most definitely is not.
Jiffy Davies didnt "turn coat". He went to earn a living from playing a code of football because he couldnt openly do so in another.

Its Phil Larder, by the way. Not Eric

Pinetree Boy

Much as it pains me got to agree with Worry and Toomevara. While rugby is my first love nothing wrong with good league. In many cases a good league team in the NRL is more structured in its play than rugby. There are distinct offensive and defensive patterns that they use and because turnovers are less common helter skelter counter-attacking like we see in super 14 is rare.

Have been watching both the Super 14 and NRL and don't see any move towards league. If anything I would love to see my team the Blues adopt some of the discipline and professionalism I see in league.

Teg Veece

Hopefully, the inevitable success of these new ELVs will encourage FIFA to reevaluate the soccer rules and just remove goalkeepers altogether.
The amount of potentially brilliant goals that these guys have prevented is just ridiculous.

il gatto

Worrytahs wrote: »

"Rugby-Lite"?? Have you ever even played the game? "Lite" is something it most definitely is not.
Jiffy Davies didnt "turn coat". He went to earn a living from playing a code of football because he couldnt openly do so in another.

Its Phil Larder, by the way. Not Eric

He "turned coat" to make money. I know that. Everyone does. It wasn't because league was better. It was pro.
I didn't concoct the Rugby Lite phrase. I realise there's some huge hits, but as far as sheer attrition and as a spectacle, I think it palls beside Union. Hence it's unpopularity outside of being big in Aus and in second to Union in England and NZ.
As for Phil Larder, I was reading about Eric Ashton on the League Hall of Fame. Must have made a big impression:o

toomevara

il gatto wrote: »

There's a minority who are willing to embrace the ELVs. Does that mean we'll be writing off an entire season of rugby and putting it down to experience? There's nothing wrong with tweaking them when there's an issue. This is mass reconstruction.

Thats precisely what I'm saying...100% agree

toomevara

Worrytahs wrote: »

"Rugby-Lite"?? Have you ever even played the game?

I think Il Gatto might have slightly misinterpreted what I'm saying...I coined the term 'Rugby-Lite' to refer to what Union will, imo, become after the adoption of the ELV's, wasn't referring to League at all, which I love...

il gatto

But that's my point as well. I love watching league games. It's knockabout, it's fast and it's fun. It doesn't really hold my interest after the whistle though. And there's no tradition of it in Ireland. However, I don't want to see Union move towards it as that is the game I really care about. The maul it seems will be all but removed by making it useless. Lineouts may also lose their value due to the lack of mauls and the lack control over numbers. How long before the IRB castrate the scrum as well. It happened in league and now you get the forwards having a chat as the ball gets fed in to the second row. We've already lost rucking with the boot. League scrums stopped because the "spectacle" was ruined by penalties and resets. The IRB is taking this route by changing things that were fine as they were.

toomevara

il gatto wrote: »

But that's my point as well. I love watching league games. It's knockabout, it's fast and it's fun. It doesn't really hold my interest after the whistle though. And there's no tradition of it in Ireland. However, I don't want to see Union move towards it as that is the game I really care about. The maul it seems will be all but removed by making it useless. Lineouts may also lose their value due to the lack of mauls and the lack control over numbers. How long before the IRB castrate the scrum as well. It happened in league and now you get the forwards having a chat as the ball gets fed in to the second row. We've already lost rucking with the boot. League scrums stopped because the "spectacle" was ruined by penalties and resets. The IRB is taking this route by changing things that were fine as they were.

I think we're in complete agreement! I would argue though that league has evolved beautifully, doesn't have the crisis of identity Union has, and the essential 'set of six' structure means that it never descends into the basketball knockabout style that is the current s14, which is why i get ticked off when people make the comparision...but hey-ho..

Incidentally I should like to apologise to anyone who tuned into yesterday evening's Wigan/St Helens game on my recommendation....The Saints were irresistible and Wigan fell apart, turned into a procession...the previous Hull derby would have been a much sounder bet...

marco_polo

Snickers Man wrote: »

No. That is one of the changes that have been instituted world wide.

Oops I should have been more specific , I meant the offside line in the tackle from the youtube clip he posted, not the 5m rule.

dc69

toomevara wrote: »

Incidentally I should like to apologise to anyone who tuned into yesterday evening's Wigan/St Helens game on my recommendation....The Saints were irresistible and Wigan fell apart, turned into a procession...the previous Hull derby would have been a much sounder bet...

In your opinion,why is it so hard for rugby union fans to watch and get into league?

My own dislike comes from the game being so stop start.Im sure there are games that are fluid but every game I have ever watched,results in a player giving a bit of a step,being innafective and running into a tackle until he takes about 8 seconds to proove he is down by wriggling and then the same thing will happen 10 seconds later.

It looks like watching a team of centres who spend their whole career bashing into the opposition instead of trying to get past them.imo