What is hell?

StormWarrior

Some people say hell is a lake of fire where you will be burned for all eternity. Others say you just cease to exist. Which is it? Also, if God is so good and merciful, surely he would just return failed humans to scratch rather than tormenting them for eternity? No matter what you do, I don't see how a life of 80 years can warrant an eternity of torture, even if you spent that whole 80 years being "evil."

Also, Christians believe that those who don't believe in Jesus won't be saved. That's not really fair. How can you make yourself believe something? Why should we be tortured because God did not reveal himself to us?

Also, if you good Christians die and go to heaven, will you really be happy there knowing that some of your friends and family are being tortured for evermore? Do you really want to spend eternity with a God like that?

And Christians supposedly believe that suicide is an offence punishable by hell. 1st - Why would God torture someone who was probably mentally ill? And what about young 11 and 12 year olds who kill themselves? Do they go to hell as well?

Why is it OK for God to send people to hell? None of us signed up for life voluntarily.

Sherifu

StormWarrior wrote: »

Some people say hell is a lake of fire where you will be burned for all eternity. Others say you just cease to exist. Which is it? Also, if good is so good and merciful, surely he would just return failed humans to scratch rather than tormenting them for eternity? No matter what you do, I don't see how a life of 80 years can warrant an eternity of torture, even if you spent that whole 80 years being "evil."

I imagine it being like living in Africa.

StormWarrior wrote: »

Also, Christians believe that those who don't believe in Jesus won't be saved. That's not really fair. How can you make yourself believe something? Why should we be tortured because God did not reveal himself to us?

It doesn't cost anything to believe.

StormWarrior wrote: »

Also, if you good Christians die and go to heaven, will you really be happy there knowing that some of your friends and family are being tortured for evermore? Do you really want to spend eternity with a God like that?

God isn't torturing them.

StormWarrior wrote: »

And Christians supposedly believe that suicide is an offence punishable by hell. 1st - Why would God torture someone who was probably mentally ill? And what about young 11 and 12 year olds who kill themselves? Do they go to hell as well?

They're stuck in limbo. Anyway they wouldn't notice.

StormWarrior wrote: »

Why is it OK for God to send people to hell? None of us signed up for life voluntarily

Who says God sends you to hell?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

StormWarrior wrote: »

Also, Christians believe that those who don't believe in Jesus won't be saved. That's not really fair. How can you make yourself believe something? Why should we be tortured because God did not reveal himself to us?

You're stumbling on a bit of a paradox here. Not believing in god/jesus implies not believing in an afterlife involving god/jesus.

If god/jesus were to exist, it's the highway to hell. If they don't, then you're grand.

StormWarrior wrote: »

Also, if you good Christians die and go to heaven, will you really be happy there knowing that some of your friends and family are being tortured for evermore? Do you really want to spend eternity with a God like that?

Have you read the old testament?

This god fellow really isn't a nice bloke.

StormWarrior wrote: »

And Christians supposedly believe that suicide is an offence punishable by hell. 1st - Why would God torture someone who was probably mentally ill? And what about young 11 and 12 year olds who kill themselves? Do they go to hell as well?

Why is it OK for God to send people to hell? None of us signed up for life voluntarily.

It's god's gaff so it's his rules.

wolfsbane

StormWarrior said:

Some people say hell is a lake of fire where you will be burned for all eternity. Others say you just cease to exist. Which is it?

The former.

Also, if God is so good and merciful, surely he would just return failed humans to scratch rather than tormenting them for eternity? No matter what you do, I don't see how a life of 80 years can warrant an eternity of torture, even if you spent that whole 80 years being "evil."

Depends on how seriously you view sin. God says it is worthy of eternal condemnation. We naturally see it different - until it harms us. The paedophile thinks his sin is not sin at all, or if it is it is small. So even we humans know that one's view of sin may be very subjective.

I'm saying man has a very subjective view of sin; God has the objective view.

Also, Christians believe that those who don't believe in Jesus won't be saved. That's not really fair. How can you make yourself believe something? Why should we be tortured because God did not reveal himself to us?

But He has - enough that we are without excuse:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Also, if you good Christians die and go to heaven, will you really be happy there knowing that some of your friends and family are being tortured for evermore? Do you really want to spend eternity with a God like that?

We will see things entirely as God sees them, and will have His comfort.

And Christians supposedly believe that suicide is an offence punishable by hell. 1st - Why would God torture someone who was probably mentally ill? And what about young 11 and 12 year olds who kill themselves? Do they go to hell as well?

There is nothing unforgivable about suicide.

Why is it OK for God to send people to hell? None of us signed up for life voluntarily.

As to why God made us, He is the Creator, the One who has all the wisdom and power needed to create the universe and all life in it - don't you think He might be more qualified to decide what is best than you and me?

The bottom line is - we are sinners, and so worthy of eternal death. The good news to you and me, Storm, is that He offers eternal life to every sinner who repents and trust in Him.

He sent His Son to pay for their sins, so that they could be pardoned and made the children of God. The Lord Jesus has gone to prepare heaven for them and is coming again to take them home forever.

Splendour

wolfsbane wrote: »

There is nothing unforgivable about suicide.

I have to disagree with this. Why would God forgive us of every sin but suicide? The only unforgiveable sin afaik is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. God looks at our hearts, not the state of our minds.

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

As to why God made us, He is the Creator, the One who has all the wisdom and power needed to create the universe and all life in it - don't you think He might be more qualified to decide what is best than you and me?

How is being in hell best for you and me?

wolfsbane wrote: »

The bottom line is - we are sinners, and so worthy of eternal death.

But you aren't talking about eternal death, you are talking about eternal suffering in a lake of fire.

Given that God knows if we will or will not end up in hell surely it would be better (for both them and everyone else) to just not created in the first place the people who will end up spending eternity in hell?

Splendour

StormWarrior wrote: »

Some people say hell is a lake of fire where you will be burned for all eternity. Others say you just cease to exist. Which is it? Also, if God is so good and merciful, surely he would just return failed humans to scratch rather than tormenting them for eternity? No matter what you do, I don't see how a life of 80 years can warrant an eternity of torture, even if you spent that whole 80 years being "evil."

Also, Christians believe that those who don't believe in Jesus won't be saved. That's not really fair. How can you make yourself believe something? Why should we be tortured because God did not reveal himself to us?

Also, if you good Christians die and go to heaven, will you really be happy there knowing that some of your friends and family are being tortured for evermore? Do you really want to spend eternity with a God like that?

And Christians supposedly believe that suicide is an offence punishable by hell. 1st - Why would God torture someone who was probably mentally ill? And what about young 11 and 12 year olds who kill themselves? Do they go to hell as well?

Why is it OK for God to send people to hell? None of us signed up for life voluntarily.

They are difficult enough questions you ask StormWarrior for a believer-never mind a non believer!

Hell is as Wolfsblane has pointed out a lake of fire-this is what we are told in the bible. It is also eternal sparation from God-Jesus himself went through this separation when he hung on the cross...

God is perfect and sinless and Heaven too is perfect and sinless-no corruption can ever be allowed to enter in or it would not be Paradise. As it is we have 'hell on earth', God does not want that in Heaven for us also. God cannot turn a blind eye to sin. The atonement has been made for all who want to receive it.

Of course you can't 'make' yourself believe but God looks at the heart of anyone who seeks him out and He does the converting not us; 'God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance'. I believe we all get a chance at some stage. Now if I was God, I'd probably have a 'leaving cert' type of entrance- a 'D' and you're in! But God in his infinite wisdom seeks perfection and a 'D' just doesnt hit that mark...

It is indeed a mystery though; Paul when he was converted on the Damascus road certainly wasn't praying to be converted-he was out to kill as many Christians as possible and put an end to all this 'Jesus business' and look what happened to him! Some people get a blast from Heaven but more often than not it is a much more subtle affair...

I believe when we die and go to heaven we will be unaware of hell-else Paradise wouldn't be Paradise now would it! Though not all of my children are believers, I would willingly take their place rather than them go to hell.

Sorry for not adressing your questions individually-I still haven't figured out how to multi quote!

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

I believe when we die and go to heaven we will be unaware of hell-else Paradise wouldn't be Paradise now would it!

Not sure it can be considered paradise if you need to be brain-washed or have your memories wiped while you are in there. A person sitting in a grey room with the lights off would think that is wonderful if they had no experience of anything else.

Splendour

Wicknight wrote: »

Not sure it can be considered paradise if you need to be brain-washed or have your memories wiped while you are in there. A person sitting in a grey room with the lights off would think that is wonderful if they had no experience of anything else.

From Gods word...

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

JoeB-

Hell is a load of paradoxes... of course believers can simply stick their head in the sand and ignore them...

Christians say that it is ok for God to punish people for all eternity for seemingly silly and slight offences because of infinities... i.e Gods glory is infinite and so any trangression, even the teeniest weeniest offence warrants an infinite punishment.. lol... gas.

Of course the fact that Gods goodness is also infinite and therefore God should be able to forgive the sinners doesn't enter into it.. I am more 'good' than God, this paradox is ignored.. (I am more 'good' than God as I would forgive a sinner, God chooses, yes, chooses, to torture them for all eternity)

I just feel saddened that people throw their lives away believing this nonsense... wouldn't it be great if superstitions and beliefs in demons and magic were a thing of the past, poor poor deluded creatures, if only their eyes could be opened to the joys of rationality and self determination.

Lovingly
Joe

JimiTime

To the OP. I believe that the lake of fire is the second death. This is what John called it in revelation. 'Death and hades' was also thrown in this same lake of fire in revelation. I have been given no reason to believe its a place of concious suffering. I'd advise you to draw your own conclusions though. Have a read yourself.

JoeBallantine wrote: »

I just feel saddened that people throw their lives away believing this nonsense... wouldn't it be great if superstitions and beliefs in demons and magic were a thing of the past, poor poor deluded creatures, if only their eyes could be opened to the joys of rationality and self determination.

hi joe. I'm Jimi. I am a christian. i grew up in Dublin, loved playing football (still do) and singing. I have had many friends, a loving family which supported me greatly in all my endeavours. I love to travel and have been to many places (australia, new zealand, thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, The Carribean, Many parts of europe etc). I am delighted to say I was born with the gift of a singing voice, and love jammin' with fellow muso's in various places. I met my beautiful wife while on a trip abroad, and we've been happily married since I was 23. we bought a house, thanks to my brothers generosity in making it affordable for us, and have a very good life tbh. I've had tragedy in my life also. Lost my brother in law, who was 21, to a traffic accident. lost my dad who ws 49 to a brain hemoerage. I found my faith was a real comfort in these times.

Now, do I sound like someone who has thrown their life away?

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

From Gods word...

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

What gives you the indication that the "change" referred to here is the wiping of our memories so we don't miss those not in heaven, or worry about those in hell?

BrianCalgary

JoeBallantine wrote: »

Hell is a load of paradoxes... of course believers can simply stick their head in the sand and ignore them...

Christians say that it is ok for God to punish people for all eternity for seemingly silly and slight offences because of infinities... i.e Gods glory is infinite and so any trangression, even the teeniest weeniest offence warrants an infinite punishment.. lol... gas.

Of course the fact that Gods goodness is also infinite and therefore God should be able to forgive the sinners doesn't enter into it.. I am more 'good' than God, this paradox is ignored.. (I am more 'good' than God as I would forgive a sinner, God chooses, yes, chooses, to torture them for all eternity)

I just feel saddened that people throw their lives away believing this nonsense... wouldn't it be great if superstitions and beliefs in demons and magic were a thing of the past, poor poor deluded creatures, if only their eyes could be opened to the joys of rationality and self determination.

Lovingly
Joe

Throwing my life away?

Dont think so. happily married for 23 years now. Have three great teenagers who are making great life choices, as I watch their non-Christian friends on drugs, alcohol and sexual escapades ruining their lives.

Coaching soccer and having positive influences on many kids. Teach Sunday School and have the same.

Have to say the life is bliss and I've been blessed. Friends the world over as a result of ministry.

How would you determine a successful life, if you consider mine to be a throw away?

StormWarrior

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Have to say the life is bliss and I've been blessed. Friends the world over as a result of ministry.

Assuming that the Christian God is real, then yes, you have been mightily blessed. And you will probably go to heaven when you die and be even more blessed. So I think it's unfair on the others then. The kids who are throwing their lives away on drugs have not been bleesed by God, have miserable lives and then have to suffer even more in hell when they die! Seems cruel.

Zombrex

StormWarrior wrote: »

Assuming that the Christian God is real, then yes, you have been mightily blessed. And you will probably go to heaven when you die and be even more blessed. So I think it's unfair on the others then. The kids who are throwing their lives away on drugs have not been bleesed by God, have miserable lives and then have to suffer even more in hell when they die! Seems cruel.

Yes, one would think that spending your life as a home less crack addict is punishment enough without throwing in the whole eternal torture in a lake of fire (how does that even work?) ... but then that is just me, I obviously have a perverted and wicked idea of justice.

BrianCalgary

StormWarrior wrote: »

Assuming that the Christian God is real, then yes, you have been mightily blessed. And you will probably go to heaven when you die and be even more blessed. So I think it's unfair on the others then. The kids who are throwing their lives away on drugs have not been bleesed by God, have miserable lives and then have to suffer even more in hell when they die! Seems cruel.

But they have made that choice to do so. I have watched kids that I have coached in the past become pot heads, because they choose to become pot heads and see absolutely nothing wrong with it, because it is fun.

I have seen others become rather slutty because they see sex is fun. They too get discarded when men are done with them and had their pleasure and the girls continue to search for love.

So who is throwing their life away?

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

But they have made that choice to do so. I have watched kids that I have coached in the past become pot heads, because they choose to become pot heads and see absolutely nothing wrong with it, because it is fun.

Well in the earlier post you were (or appeared to be) suggesting that because raised your children in a loving Christian family, that helped your kids not be pot heads, where as non-Christian kids you know (raised in pagan satan worshipping families no doubt) piddled their lives down the drain (a connection with not being Christian perhaps?)

You now appear to be saying that this is their choice.

So either your Christian upbringing had little effect on your children and they decided on their own "good"

Or it did have a good effect, and those children not raised in the same environment are at a significant disadvantage for simply being unlucky enough not you have you a parents.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I have seen others become rather slutty because they see sex is fun. They too get discarded when men are done with them and had their pleasure and the girls continue to search for love.

Well firstly, if they are "searching for love" and confusing sex with love and emotional connection, they are hardly having sex just for fun. They are having sex for fill an emotional void, with is tragic and not something to send someone to hell for (in my wicked opinion)

But you are also back to them being unlucky enough to be born into families that produce children like this.

Why would God place a kid in a family that produces, through emotional neglect, an unloved, emotionally stunted, sex addicted, drug addict, and then send them to fiery punishment for all eternity, when he placed your kids in your loving family?

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

So who is throwing their life away?

And I know plenty of people -- there are thousands of them in Ireland alone -- who marry an exclusive club, who see their life's purpose as nothing more than the acquisition of new members, and who grow old in the belief that everything will be perfect when they die.

StormWarrior

Brian - what if someone has mental problems that cause them to sin or killl themselves? Will they go to hell?

StormWarrior

BrianCalgary wrote: »

But they have made that choice to do so. I have watched kids that I have coached in the past become pot heads, because they choose to become pot heads and see absolutely nothing wrong with it, because it is fun.

Some of my old schoolfriends got into smoking pot at the age of 13 because their parents didn't care what they were getting up to. Now they are 24/25 and totally addicted. Is it really their fault? Can they be held accountable for decisions made when they were so young and uncared for?

JimiTime

StormWarrior wrote: »

Some of my old schoolfriends got into smoking pot at the age of 13 because their parents didn't care what they were getting up to. Now they are 24/25 and totally addicted. Is it really their fault? Can they be held accountable for decisions made when they were so young and uncared for?

Yes. i know pot heads that came from parents who cared. they started when they were around 13 also. Every person is ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. Relieving them of responsability is unwise IMO. where do you stop? A child rapist? 'but I was abused as a child'. Thats probably the reason why you developed such a perverse thought alright. However, do you know its wrong? Yes!

There is no doubt, some people have a much greater struggle than others. However, ultimately, they are responsible for their actions.

BrianCalgary

StormWarrior wrote: »

Some of my old schoolfriends got into smoking pot at the age of 13 because their parents didn't care what they were getting up to. Now they are 24/25 and totally addicted. Is it really their fault? Can they be held accountable for decisions made when they were so young and uncared for?

Yes. You are accountable for your decsions. You are accountable for your actions. I know we want to blame others for our mistakes, but lets face it, when one takes the joint from the one next to them, it is their choice.

BTW I was not raised in a Christian home. And when at parties as a young man I did pass on the joint, I said : No.

And there were times when I said : yes and took it. And at a time in my life I said: no for good.

So being addicted at 24/25 is their fault. They decided to do it and everyday they decide to continue. And yes, they can be held accountable for decisions they made at a young age when they felt uncared for.

StormWarrior

What if someone is mentally ill, say, severe clinical depression which no medication or therapy has cured and they kill themselves. Do you think it's right that God sends them to hell for the sin of suicide?

Also, what about the fact that none of us had a choice to participate in life? Why does God have any rights over us? If a scientist creates a conscious life form in a lab, does that scientist have the right to inflict any kind of torture he chooses upon it?

wolfsbane

Splendour wrote: »

I have to disagree with this. Why would God forgive us of every sin but suicide? The only unforgiveable sin afaik is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. God looks at our hearts, not the state of our minds.

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What I said and what you said are the same. How can you disagree?

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
As to why God made us, He is the Creator, the One who has all the wisdom and power needed to create the universe and all life in it - don't you think He might be more qualified to decide what is best than you and me?
How is being in hell best for you and me?

It is best from God's perspective, just as you and I would say prison is best for a rapist or kidnapper. The rapist and kidnapper will no doubt disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The bottom line is - we are sinners, and so worthy of eternal death.
But you aren't talking about eternal death, you are talking about eternal suffering in a lake of fire.

Yes, that is what eternal death/destruction means.

Given that God knows if we will or will not end up in hell surely it would be better (for both them and everyone else) to just not created in the first place the people who will end up spending eternity in hell?

That seems a logical course for the human mind - but God says He knows better. As He made the universe and all life, I reckon He is wiser and holier than you and me.

Sevenie

Seen Man Utd getting to the CL final, that is hell and proof if anyone needed it that there is no god.

End Of.

wolfsbane

JoeBallantine said:

I just feel saddened that people throw their lives away believing this nonsense... wouldn't it be great if superstitions and beliefs in demons and magic were a thing of the past, poor poor deluded creatures, if only their eyes could be opened to the joys of rationality and self determination.

Ah, Yes, Liberty, Fraternity, Equality!

Doesn't quite work out like that, does it Joe?

When men throw out God, they make gods for themselves. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hoxha - all into the joys of rationality and self determination.

Even on the personal level, freedom from God makes one his own god. Hedonism is only moderated in such in so far as they haven't shook off all conscience toward God (and so feel uneasy about various sins), or the fear of society's disapproval/punishment.

eoin5

wolfsbane wrote: »

JoeBallantine said:

Ah, Yes, Liberty, Fraternity, Equality!

Doesn't quite work out like that, does it Joe?

When men throw out God, they make gods for themselves. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hoxha - all into the joys of rationality and self determination.

Even on the personal level, freedom from God makes one his own god. Hedonism is only moderated in such in so far as they haven't shook off all conscience toward God (and so feel uneasy about various sins), or the fear of society's disapproval/punishment.

With or without God societies follow some kind of dogma so its just a generalisation. Its social structure that should adjust itself to give people a full meaningful life which is what suits most people, even hedonism gets boring eventually. Fear only comes into it really when the societies punishments are severe (whether its hell or the gas chamber). If you want to talk about lust its a lust for life I believe we should aim for in our dogmatic societies.

JoeB-

Ok, I have been watching this forum for long enough now to realise that nothing I can say can change peoples beliefs.. and although I am more than happy to examine new evidence and thus change my beliefs no new evidence is ever offered, just the old stuff rehashed.

OK, what I will say is this...

If someone was to believe in a sun god (i.e that the sun is a god), most would agree that this is ridiculous and overwhelmingly likely to be incorrect and a waste of time...
likewise with a god of the sea...
and likewise with a god of the rocks, or the mountains, or the storm clouds...
likewise too with an African witch doctor... or a Carribean Voodoo practictioner..

If people were to modify their behaviour to any significant degree because of a belief in any of the above (whacky!) beliefs most people would agree that that is a bit silly at the very least... if people were to go so far as to sacrifice their children to such a God, or to refuse scientific medical treatment because of a preference for a 'religious' cure most would agree that this is in fact very dangerous and incredible stupid. If people were to impose these beliefs on children or teach the children these beliefs as if they were proven facts again most would agree that this is wrong.

But if I say that someones equally unfounded and equally silly beliefs cause them to modify their behaviour and that this is effectively 'throwing' their life away.. (or throwing some aspect of their life away, i.e sexuality or contentment etc etc) people are immediately up in arms.. 'Don't be silly Joe' etc etc..

I don't believe there is any counter argument to what I have said.. everyone agrees that there are 1,000s of false religions, false beliefs and false gods... yet some or most believers fail to recognize that their own religious beliefs / systems etc are equally unfounded and equally 'crazy'...

To say nothing of having to come up with logically inconsistent and frankly quite silly explanations to explain away paradoxes to do with things like, free will, concept of heaven and hell, concept of complete altruism, concept of eternal life, concept of everlasting and non-beginnings conciousness, omnipotence, concept of paedophile representatives on earth, (Gods) inability to deal with evil, problem (paradox) with everything stemming from God except bad things like viruses, famine, AIDS, cancer etc etc...

Cheers
Joe

robindch

wolfsbane wrote: »

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hoxha - all into the joys of rationality and self determination.

Saying that these guys were into "rationality" and "self-determination" suggests quite strongly that your knowledge of the twentieth century is some way wide of reality.

Do you really believe this, or are you just trying to score a debating point?

JimiTime

JoeBallantine wrote: »

Ok, I have been watching this forum for long enough now to realise that nothing I can say can change peoples beliefs.. and although I am more than happy to examine new evidence and thus change my beliefs no new evidence is ever offered, just the old stuff rehashed.

OK, what I will say is this...

If someone was to believe in a sun god (i.e that the sun is a god), most would agree that this is ridiculous and overwhelmingly likely to be incorrect and a waste of time...
likewise with a god of the sea...
and likewise with a god of the rocks, or the mountains, or the storm clouds...
likewise too with an African witch doctor... or a Carribean Voodoo practictioner..

If people were to modify their behaviour to any significant degree because of a belief in any of the above (whacky!) beliefs most people would agree that that is a bit silly at the very least... if people were to go so far as to sacrifice their children to such a God, or to refuse scientific medical treatment because of a preference for a 'religious' cure most would agree that this is in fact very dangerous and incredible stupid. If people were to impose these beliefs on children or teach the children these beliefs as if they were proven facts again most would agree that this is wrong.

But if I say that someones equally unfounded and equally silly beliefs cause them to modify their behaviour and that this is effectively 'throwing' their life away.. (or throwing some aspect of their life away, i.e sexuality or contentment etc etc) people are immediately up in arms.. 'Don't be silly Joe' etc etc..

I don't believe there is any counter argument to what I have said.. everyone agrees that there are 1,000s of false religions, false beliefs and false gods... yet some or most believers fail to recognize that their own religious beliefs / systems etc are equally unfounded and equally 'crazy'...

To say nothing of having to come up with logically inconsistent and frankly quite silly explanations to explain away paradoxes to do with things like, free will, concept of heaven and hell, concept of complete altruism, concept of eternal life, concept of everlasting and non-beginnings conciousness, omnipotence, concept of paedophile representatives on earth, (Gods) inability to deal with evil, problem (paradox) with everything stemming from God except bad things like viruses, famine, AIDS, cancer etc etc...

Cheers
Joe

So what aspect of my life did I throw away?

StormWarrior

wolfsbane wrote: »

Wicknight said:

It is best from God's perspective, just as you and I would say prison is best for a rapist or kidnapper. The rapist and kidnapper will no doubt disagree.

I don't think this is a good analogy. The reason we put such people in prison is to keep them away from the rest of society and maybe rehabilitate them. God could easily keep the sinners away from the heavenly creatures without needing to burn them in fire for eternity, and since we're not going to be rehabilitated to join heaven, why punish us? Just wipe out our existence. Also it says in the bible that God has pre-ordained some people to go to hell as examples for others. Very fair of him. And I don't like the whole "We're not as great as God so we can't understand his ways" thing.
a. if we were created in the image of God, then we must have a similar sense of justice to him. And its pretty ovious to any rational person that 80 years of sinning and not believing in Jesus does not = eternal torment.
b. why did god give us logic and curiosity if we are not supposed to question things such as the bible? The bible has been vastly altered through the centuries anyway, who knows who added or took away relevant parts?

Nevyn

I always find this dicussion amusing.

I have heard hell as being decribed in two very differnt ways.

The first has been covered here already and is Dantes infero basically and the different levels of hell which seem to be cobbled together from other eostric sources.

The second it that when your soul is judged you meet God ( christian clearly in this context ) and are over awed and part of eirtainal bliss and then when you are parted from that for ever as you have been deemed unworthy existing after that parted from God is un bearable and you must stay that way until judgment day.

So I end up considering which is true,
the being scolded and being put in the naughty corner and feeling horrible that you have
let the ultimate parent down and wallowing in wretchedness until your time out is over,

or

The hell as put about by Dante
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy
Who lived in 1300s and it is now reckoned was a manic depressive who when he was up wrote the Paradiso section and when he was down in the depths wrote the Inferno section.

As for the christain god who started out as the god of 12 desert tribes I don't believe he has domain over all humans, so really I think if you doe not agree with that God's take o things and can not abide by the christain rules time to leave and look else where.
Put then again I would say that cos I'm damned pagan

StormWarrior

Thaedydal wrote: »

The second it that when your soul is judged you meet God ( christian clearly in this context ) and are over awed and part of eirtainal bliss and then when you are parted from that for ever as you have been deemed unworthy existing after that parted from God is un bearable and you must stay that way until judgment day.

If someone believes in that version, what happens to the damned after judgment day? Torture, separation or non-existence?

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

It is best from God's perspective

How? God wants me to be in hell?

wolfsbane wrote: »

just as you and I would say prison is best for a rapist or kidnapper.

I wouldn't say prison is best for the rapist or kidnapper. Prison is a horrible place to be. We put people in prison to protect us from them.

We try and rehabilitate people for both us and them so that they can be part of society when they leave prison, but that isn't something hell does, as you never leave, or can leave, hell.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The rapist and kidnapper will no doubt disagree.

They would, which is why the idea that we are putting them in prison for their best is rather silly.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, that is what eternal death/destruction means.

I would have thought eternal death means just that, death eternal. It doesn't imply by itself a lake of fire and eternal suffering.

Do all Christians believe in the lake of fire and eternal suffering?

wolfsbane wrote: »

That seems a logical course for the human mind - but God says He knows better. As He made the universe and all life, I reckon He is wiser and holier than you and me.

Why do you reckon that?

Surely if we are too stupid to query the justice of hell we are too stupid to determine that God is what he claims to be and made the universe as he claims to have?

StormWarrior

And if we are too stupid/ignorant to understand why God would send us to hell, then we can't be held responsible for actions that would lead us there. Would you send a 5 year old with autism to prison for hitting someone and stealing their lunch? If we really are too small to understand God then we must be like a 5 year old with autism to him, hence we should not be punished.

Nevyn

StormWarrior wrote: »

If someone believes in that version, what happens to the damned after judgment day? Torture, separation or non-existence?

Who knows the book of Revelations is so twisted who can tell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

kelly1

JoeBallantine wrote: »

Of course the fact that Gods goodness is also infinite and therefore God should be able to forgive the sinners doesn't enter into it.. I am more 'good' than God, this paradox is ignored.. (I am more 'good' than God as I would forgive a sinner, God chooses, yes, chooses, to torture them for all eternity)

Joe, the point is that God is always ready to forgive those who repent. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness. There is no sin so bad that God cannot forgive. Hitler could have been saved if He repented and begged for forgiveness in the name of Jesus. But I suspect he was so immersed in evil that this never occurred to him or if it did, he was too proud to ask.

I believe that God gives eveyone a last chance to repent before dying. He prompts us to turn to Him for forgiveness. Those who go to Hell do so of their own choice and free will. The point of death is such a major fork in the road that I don't think God would leave us without a metaphorical sign-post marked "<--- Hell / Heaven --->".

StormWarrior

What if one repents of the wrongs they did, but just doesn't believe in Jesus? You can't make yourself believe something, and God could be blamed for not revealing himself to us.

Also, what if one just cannot see that they have done anythign wrong, although God considers it a sin? Should someone be punished for not repenting fornication although all parties were willing?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Without repentance there can be no forgiveness.

That isn't true, in fact your religion teaches the exact opposite to that, Christians are supposed to try and forgive people who have harmed them or done them wrong even if these people do not repent or are not sorry for what they have done

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't true, in fact your religion teaches the exact opposite to that, Christians are supposed to try and forgive people who have harmed them or done them wrong even if these people do not repent or are not sorry for what they have done

I don't agree with Kelly1's or most christians view of hell, so i wont get into that one. But the above statement misses a point.

'We' are told to forgive, however, you need to ask why. God will judge those who he deems not worthy of forgiveness. He did say 'Vengeance is mine'. It is up to him to exact the punishments.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

'We' are told to forgive, however, you need to ask why. God will judge those who he deems not worthy of forgiveness. He did say 'Vengeance is mine'. It is up to him to exact the punishments.

Er, I'm pretty sure that isn't the standard Christians interpretation of why you are supposed to forgive people.

It isn't because God will take care of the vengeance part for you later on. Jesus didn't say love your enemies because God will kick their assess in the after-life.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, I'm pretty sure that isn't the standard Christians interpretation of why you are supposed to forgive people.

It isn't because God will take care of the vengeance part for you later on. Jesus didn't say love your enemies because God will kick their assess in the after-life.

I know thats not the reason. But can you reason out 'why' 'we' are asked to forgive? And why God has the option 'not' to forgive.

kelly1

StormWarrior wrote: »

What if one repents of the wrongs they did, but just doesn't believe in Jesus? You can't make yourself believe something, and God could be blamed for not revealing himself to us.

Also, what if one just cannot see that they have done anythign wrong, although God considers it a sin? Should someone be punished for not repenting fornication although all parties were willing?

Difficult questions StormWarrior. All I can say is that God knows the intention in our hearts and we will be judged accordingly. On the 2nd point, no God hasn't revaled Himself to each of us personally but He has revealed Himself to large numbers of people (apostles/saints/martys etc). From what I can see God only seems to revleal Himself to those who have proved their love of God and have demonstrated complete faith in Him.

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't true, in fact your religion teaches the exact opposite to that, Christians are supposed to try and forgive people who have harmed them or done them wrong even if these people do not repent or are not sorry for what they have done

Wicknight, you're not even trying to understand arguments offered here. Hanging on doggedly to pre-conceived notions won't progress your understanding of Christianity. I was obviously talking about God's forgiveness, not ours!

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

'We' are told to forgive, however, you need to ask why. God will judge those who he deems not worthy of forgiveness. He did say 'Vengeance is mine'. It is up to him to exact the punishments.

Jimi, I don't think we need ask why we should forgive someone else? Remember the story about how many times we should forgive, 7 times 77 and all that? If we are to expect mercy, we too must be merciful to others.

As for God, His mercy is without limit so I don't see why God wouldn't forgive someone who is truly repentant especially if there are sorry for their offences against God.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

Difficult questions StormWarrior. All I can say is that God knows the intention in our hearts and we will be judged accordingly. On the 2nd point, no God hasn't revaled Himself to each of us personally but He has revealed Himself to large numbers of people (apostles/saints/martys etc). From what I can see God only seems to revleal Himself to those who have proved their love of God and have demonstrated complete faith in Him.

I meant to say, some people believe in God, some don't. But one could say that God blessed Mr A with the gift of believing in him, and did not bless Mr B the same way. So Mr B doesn't believe and goes to hell for it. Is not believing in God really a sin? It harms no-one and it's not something you can control. Lots of people would love to believe in God and ask him - if you're there, make me believe! But he doesn't.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

But can you reason out 'why' 'we' are asked to forgive? And why God has the option 'not' to forgive.

Well yes, that is my point. God has the option not to forgive, but he would forgive for the same reason he asks us to, that being that is what makes him happy and is the right thing to do.

He wouldn't ask us to forgive yet not forgive himself, that would make little sense.

StormWarrior

Wicknight wrote: »

Well yes, that is my point. God has the option not to forgive, but he would forgive for the same reason he asks us to, that being that is what makes him happy and is the right thing to do.

He wouldn't ask us to forgive yet not forgive himself, that would make little sense.

I agree, like mentioned earlier, if we are created in God's image, surely we must have a similar sense of justice to him, and so if this way seems unfair to us, it must to him as well.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I was obviously talking about God's forgiveness, not ours!

I'm not sure you are following my point.

Why would God ask us to forgive those who have acted against us even if they don't repent or seek our forgiveness, yet not do the same thing himself when he is supposed to be far more forgiving?

You have to look at the reason God is supposed to be asking us to forgive each other, and it isn't because he will dish out the punishment on our behalf later on.

The idea that we are encouraged (by God) to forgive without repentance coming first yet he wouldn't or cannot forgive without repentance coming first, is quite nonsensical.

Splendour

wolfsbane wrote: »

What I said and what you said are the same. How can you disagree?

Sorry bout that wolfsbane-was very tired when read your post and responded to it-will pay more attention in future!!

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Difficult questions StormWarrior. All I can say is that God knows the intention in our hearts and we will be judged accordingly. On the 2nd point, no God hasn't revaled Himself to each of us personally but He has revealed Himself to large numbers of people (apostles/saints/martys etc). From what I can see God only seems to revleal Himself to those who have proved their love of God and have demonstrated complete faith in Him.

Thats ridiculous. If that is true, then 'God' obviously wants to make it as hard as possible for people to believe in him.
Its what scientology does. It promises amazing things, but only after you have totally devoted yourself to the cult will it even show you what you're supposed to be believing in.