Engagement ring valuation - any thoughts on this?

Bricks n mortar

I recently went to Antwerp and bought and engagement ring with my fiancee. We got something we really liked at a good price. I'm not into spending an extortionate amount of money on a ring. We got a nice >1 carat brilliant white vs2 round diamond on a wide banded platinum ring with baguette diamonds on the shoulder in a reputable shop on the high street with a proper HGS (or whatever its called) certificate. She was dead happy with it and we did think we got a fairly good price. When we returned to Dublin we got it valued at a reputable high street jeweller for our insurer. It was sent away for two weeks and returned with a sterling valuation at nearly 5 times what we paid for it! They even knew in advance what we paid for it! Does anyone have any views on this? Is this just a stroke of luck i.e. we got a very good deal in Antwerp, or is there something else going on here? Other than making us feel good about the purchase, it seems meaningless doesn't it. Plus its going to increase my contents insurance premium. What methods do valuers use? Is it a localised replacement cost or what?

Any thoughts very much appreciated.

Sizzler

Bricks n mortar wrote: »

I recently went to Antwerp and bought and engagement ring with my fiancee. We got something we really liked at a good price. I'm not into spending an extortionate amount of money on a ring. We got a nice >1 carat brilliant white vs2 round diamond on a wide banded platinum ring with baguette diamonds on the shoulder in a reputable shop on the high street with a proper HGS (or whatever its called) certificate. She was dead happy with it and we did think we got a fairly good price. When we returned to Dublin we got it valued at a reputable high street jeweller for our insurer. It was sent away for two weeks and returned with a sterling valuation at nearly 5 times what we paid for it! They even knew in advance what we paid for it! Does anyone have any views on this? Is this just a stroke of luck i.e. we got a very good deal in Antwerp, or is there something else going on here? Other than making us feel good about the purchase, it seems meaningless doesn't it. Plus its going to increase my contents insurance premium. What methods do valuers use? Is it a localised replacement cost or what?

Any thoughts very much appreciated.

The valuation was made at prevailing Irish jeweller rates, i.e. how much the same ring would cost to buy in Ireland (Not sure why they valued it in GBP though?). Means nothing really as no doubt your fiancé is delighted with it which is the important thing but it does prove Irish prices are taking the pi**.
No surprises there :rolleyes:

keyes

Bricks n mortar wrote: »

I recently went to Antwerp and bought and engagement ring with my fiancee. We got something we really liked at a good price. I'm not into spending an extortionate amount of money on a ring. We got a nice >1 carat brilliant white vs2 round diamond on a wide banded platinum ring with baguette diamonds on the shoulder in a reputable shop on the high street with a proper HGS (or whatever its called) certificate. She was dead happy with it and we did think we got a fairly good price. When we returned to Dublin we got it valued at a reputable high street jeweller for our insurer. It was sent away for two weeks and returned with a sterling valuation at nearly 5 times what we paid for it! They even knew in advance what we paid for it! Does anyone have any views on this? Is this just a stroke of luck i.e. we got a very good deal in Antwerp, or is there something else going on here? Other than making us feel good about the purchase, it seems meaningless doesn't it. Plus its going to increase my contents insurance premium. What methods do valuers use? Is it a localised replacement cost or what?

Any thoughts very much appreciated.

It's a common problem, and makes a mockery of many "valuations". It is a fact that if you buy a ring in shop A in Dublin, and get it valued in shop B in Dublin, then shop B's valuation will be higher.

There's a few reasons why:

(a) you need to factor in a few years' inflation, as people get rings re-valued once in a blue moon.

(b) if you did lose it, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that the insurance company pays out the full amount insured!! they start by offering maybe 50%, if you're lucky, and you have to argue the case. Valuers are aware of this, so will pitch the number (a little) higher.

(c) It removes liability from the (unsure) valuer - if you value a ring for 5000, for example, and the person loses it and it costs 8000 replace, then the valuer can be sued for the 3000 difference. A valuer who doesn't really know what they're at will instead value it for 15000, so that when the insurance company offers 50% (7500), the customer will probably be happy.

Typically, twice is more than enough, probably too much to be honest. some valuers work on cost price times 2 plus vat. I've heard of 3 times too. One valuer mentioned a lot on boards typically does 5 times purchase price, so i reckon i know where you got it valued. This person valued a ring i sold for a similar multiple (i still have a copy of the paperwork). it was just ridiculous, but there you go.

if there was such a price difference, every dealer in antwerp would be over here setting up shop. despite what anyone says anywhere, diamonds are priced in dollars, and the price lists come from new york every week and are known from tipperary to timbuktu.

the bottom line is that something is worth what you paid for it; mind, a 1ct stone is a straightforward valuation, 5 times value in sterling raises eyebrows! if you did have a problem, the insurance company will certainly query that, (they have access to the rapaport list too!), and won't pay out.

if it's shoving your premium up massively, perhaps get another valuation, or go back and explain that you don't want such a high figure. go round a few shops, trying to price a ring of similar spec, and you'll get a good idea of local price. that's the figure you want.

Bricks n mortar

Thanks for the replies - they help. I did find it astonishing that a firm would stake their professional reputation on something that is wildly out of whack. I had expected 30% to 50% max. I have lost faith in most of what the say. But then again, the diamond industry does seem to thrive on massaging egos and making you think you got a good deal, when in fact there's no chance its worth that, and they don't constitute investments in the slighest!

keyes

Bricks n mortar wrote: »

Thanks for the replies - they help. I did find it astonishing that a firm would stake their professional reputation on something that is wildly out of whack. I had expected 30% to 50% max. I have lost faith in most of what the say. But then again, the diamond industry does seem to thrive on massaging egos and making you think you got a good deal, when in fact there's no chance its worth that, and they don't constitute investments in the slighest!

that's not quite what i was saying; if you buy something in one place and someone else tells you it's worth 5 times that, then obviously the valuation is out of whack.

as for the investment aspect of a diamond, it's like art or furniture. it's possible to invest in diamonds, but you need to be very knowledgeable, and know the market. also, you need to take a 5-10 year approach, rather than a quick turnaround like that!

Sizzler

keyes wrote: »

that's not quite what i was saying; if you buy something in one place and someone else tells you it's worth 5 times that, then obviously the valuation is out of whack.

as for the investment aspect of a diamond, it's like art or furniture. it's possible to invest in diamonds, but you need to be very knowledgeable, and know the market. also, you need to take a 5-10 year approach, rather than a quick turnaround like that!

To be fair though try pricing a pretty standard diamond & setting in platinum, lets say a 1ct solitaire, round cut, VVS1 and F colour. Now go to several jewellers that peddle their wears in the Irish market, ahem :

http://www.google.ie/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENIE266&q=diamond+rings+ireland&meta=

See what they come back with. Now, do the same and email someone in Antwerp and NYC and see what they say.

I did that last summer and when I had comparables I asked a guy in Dublin why he was charging a few GRAND more for the same product than the Antwerp retail market he said "these are Irish prices for the Irish market, I'm not in the business of trying to compete with Antwerp prices here in Dublin".

keyes

Sizzler wrote: »

I did that last summer and when I had comparables I asked a guy in Dublin why he was charging a few GRAND more for the same product than the Antwerp retail market he said "these are Irish prices for the Irish market, I'm not in the business of trying to compete with Antwerp prices here in Dublin".

this is at least the second time you've made that claim. i suggest you say who said that, or stop making "well i heard" type of claims. if this person did say that, then it's not libelous, and you've nothing so fear.

as far as i'm concerned, this page is for the sharing of information on diamonds, perhaps helping out people who are a bit confused, etc. i'm not here to defend anyone. the free market does that. if i'm going to get jumped on every time i make a comment, well, why do i bother? i have better things to do with my time.

it's a straightforward fact that most people buying in new york do not pay duty or VAT on return to dublin, so price comparisons are harder to do.

i recently read of case law where a ring was imported without paying vat. the ring was lost, and the insurance company refused to pay, as the item was smuggled. the person sued, went to high court, lost. (this was in england, but i reckon the law would be the same) insurance companies are clever. they will ask to see receipts, and receipts of VAT paid.

Sizzler

keyes wrote: »

this is at least the second time you've made that claim. i suggest you say who said that, or stop making "well i heard" type of claims. if this person did say that, then it's not libelous, and you've nothing so fear.

I'd love to say I kept that email but I didnt. If I did I would HAPPILY have posted them up.

keyes wrote: »

as far as i'm concerned, this page is for the sharing of information on diamonds, perhaps helping out people who are a bit confused, etc. i'm not here to defend anyone. the free market does that. if i'm going to get jumped on every time i make a comment, well, why do i bother? i have better things to do with my time. .

Agreed x 2. As I have also said before I have never ONCE questioned the help and guidance you offer the people that have sought advice on here, again I said it is to be commended.

In relation to pricing queries I am making the point that you should make informed decisions on price comparisons before going and spending a chunk of cash. Its a big amount for money for the average chap out there so if you have a budget, do your best with it.

keyes wrote: »

it's a straightforward fact that most people buying in new york do not pay duty or VAT on return to dublin, so price comparisons are harder to do. .

And Antwerp
Re - NY. NYC sales tax 8% (ish) - ROI 21% , difference of 13% on the product. That aside, as I have said before the price difference is more than 21% here versus Antwerp (for example) so that argument simply doesnt stand up.

keyes wrote: »

i recently read of case law where a ring was imported without paying vat. the ring was lost, and the insurance company refused to pay, as the item was smuggled. the person sued, went to high court, lost. (this was in england, but i reckon the law would be the same) insurance companies are clever. they will ask to see receipts, and receipts of VAT paid.

Link ?
If that was the case mainstream insurance companies would ask for proof of purchase, here in ROI, they don't. They ask for a valuation cert, maybe a photo but thats it. Do you have to give your car insurance company proof of purchase when insuring your car? Do you have to produce receipts for all your house contents when insuring your house? Do you heck!

keyes

Sizzler wrote: »

I'd love to say I kept that email but I didnt. If I did I would HAPPILY have posted them up.

Re - NY. NYC sales tax 8% (ish) - ROI 21% , difference of 13% on the product. That aside, as I have said before the price difference is more than 21% here versus Antwerp (for example) so that argument simply doesnt stand up.

If that was the case mainstream insurance companies would ask for proof of purchase, here in ROI, they don't. They ask for a valuation cert, maybe a photo but thats it. Do you have to give your car insurance company proof of purchase when insuring your car? Do you have to produce receipts for all your house contents when insuring your house? Do you heck!

you've obviously never claimed for a piece of expensive jewellery. the companies can, and do, ask for receipts. to think otherwise is naive, and simply wrong.

as for that case law, I'd love to say I kept that link but I didn't. If I did I would HAPPILY have posted it up.

with regards new york, the vat has to be paid at 21% on top of the ticket price plus sales tax, not instead of. it's not either/or.

at the end of the day, if it was as easy as that, every dealer in antwerp would be over here setting up shops, it's an open market, barrier to entry is low. they aren't. wonder why??

this is my last post on this. i consider this matter closed, as we're never going to agree.

to keep on topic, i suggest the OP get a realistic valuation, it serves no purpose paying huge premiums.

Sizzler

keyes wrote: »

you've obviously never claimed for a piece of expensive jewellery. the companies can, and do, ask for receipts. to think otherwise is naive, and simply wrong. .

Whats the point in getting it valued if they want a receipt, as you have said yourself jewellers will invariably give different valuations. Make your mind up, they value on the back of a receipt or a valuation, one will be at odds with the other regardless of where you buy.

keyes wrote: »

as for that case law, I'd love to say I kept that link but I didn't. If I did I would HAPPILY have posted it up.

keyes wrote: »

with regards new york, the vat has to be paid at 21% on top of the ticket price plus sales tax, not instead of. it's not either/or.

I know, And its still cheaper.

keyes wrote: »

at the end of the day, if it was as easy as that, every dealer in antwerp would be over here setting up shops, it's an open market, barrier to entry is low. they aren't. wonder why??

Simple. Why would they when they can charge 'Irish prices'. Tell you what, contact Tom @ diamant.ie as an example and ask him for a price. Then ask him why the exact same product is cheaper in Antwerp and see what he says. Come back to me and let me know how you get on, I'd love to hear, really I would.

keyes wrote: »

to keep on topic, i suggest the OP get a realistic valuation, it serves no purpose paying huge premiums.

A tenner says they get another valuation at least 50% over and above what they paid for it. Not that it matters really as the OP sounded happy with their purchase

JohnDunne

I would highly recommend Carol Clarke,In Hibearinan Way,if you want to have a ring valued.She may be a little dearer than some of the other Jewellers,but she is much more qualified than any of the other Jewellers in Dublin,doing valuations.She was able to point out problems with our ring and helped us
to get the problems sorted out.I dont think anyone would have helped us as much as she did.