Cavalera Conspiracy and the evolution of Sepultura

Civilian_Target

So... it seems pretty clear to me that the reunion of the Cavalera Bros. pretty much spells the end for Soulfly While I think it'll be pretty cool to see the closest thing you'll find to the 'Classic' Sepultura lineup on tour again, overall I'm disappointed.

I found the Cavalera Conspiracy album to be pretty much a less-imaginative photocopy of Sepultura efforts from 12+ years ago, and not really a patch on (for example), Soulfly's Dark Ages album.

What's people's views on this subject, happy to see the reunion or would rather they'd called it a day? What becomes of the current Sepultura?

As an indicator, I've also thrown in a poll, to find out which part of the story people are really interested in, tick the boxes of any of the stuff you listen to and like!

smackbunnybaby

i'm not too interested in the re-union tour but does any else feel like derrick greene is going to get totally shafted?

id like to think that andreas and igor (?) have accepted that derrick is now the lead singer with sepultura and not suddenly fire him cus max said so.

to be honest i think all this re union talk is from the cavelera camp

steveone

back in the early 90's they were unstoppable... i saw them in the top hat for the BTR tour..
after arise/ roots they got too grind heavy for my liking.. they lost their way a bit.(yet entombed could pull that sound no problem).no matter what happens it'll never be the same... TBH they were never sepiltura without max.(saw them in the embassador they weren't great).some bands can nearly rent or feature musicians,(look what gary holt's done with exodus over the years) but others are all about the people...sabbath and ozzy, metallica and cliff, queen and freddie..Chuck and Death...lets see what happens....

Otis Driftwood

Derrick Greene never could and never would be fit to replace Max.The name should have been dropped when Max left same as Pantera when Phil left.
Dime and the other members could have kept the Pantera name and got a new vocalist but did the decent thing and formed a new band.

Guitarists,bassists and drummers can come and go but the vocalist is the epi-center of any band,particularly in metal.

The only reason they kept the Seps name was for $$$$$.

Green isnt a bad vocalist but he should not be attached to the Sepultura name.

I would welcome with open arms a reunion of the original line up as I never had the pleasure of seeing em play.

Heres hoping!

Doctor J

I can't understand why people want Max back in the band. His musical direction has been, in general, **** from and including Roots. Him rejoining Sepultura does not mean he will rediscover how to write a good tune, far from it. That Cavalera Conspiracy album is undisputably weak, a mish-mash of generic riffs and tired vocals. If he was capable of great music fit to wear the name Sepultura you would have heard it in the last 12 years. You haven't. Him rejoining Sepultura does not mean you will hear Beneath The Remains II, you'll just get something similar to the last Soulfly album. The only reason that band would get back together is $$$.

That's not something I want to hear.

Granted, Sepultura's first couple of albums with Derrick Greene were patchy at best, no better than Roots, but Roorback and Revolusongs were big steps in the right direction and, in my opinion, Dante XXI is the only album by any Sepultura lineup fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Beneath The Remains and Arise. They have grown musicially and evolved into one of the few genuinely interesting bands out at the moment. The use of strings and french horn in the last album was superb, a really good idea which worked. They're forging ahead making new and original music and long may it continue. People are too hung up on who is in a band rather than actually listening to the music that is being created. I couldn't give a **** who is in Sepultura once the music is to the standard of Dante XXI because that's all that matters. It's unlikely to be that good if Max is in the band, simple as that.

The name should have been dropped

Why didn't Pantera change their name after Terrence Lee left? Iron Maiden should have changed their name after Di'anno was kicked out too, or perhaps Anthrax should have quit after Belladonna went? :rolleyes:

Taking back Max would be as stupid an idea as Joey going back to Anthrax. It would be several steps backwards for a band who are currently making some genuine leaps forward in Metal.

Otis Driftwood

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Otis Driftwood

Maiden and Pantera had limited success and releases before Bruce and Phil joined up (and in the case of Pantera the group radically changed their sound)

They are the vocalists that the vast majority of fans would associate with those 2 bands and they were vocalists when their best stuff was released.
Take Maiden for example,most fans(I know) dont associate the Blaze years with the bands overall career.

Do you think Were Maiden better or worse without Bruce?
A resounding worse IMO.

It would be like Metallica without Hetfield,of Marilyn Manson without Manson.

They would be Metallica or MM in name alone.

I take your point on Anthrax but they are pretty much the exception to the rule.

We will just have to agree to disagree on Greene using the Sepultura name.

Malice

Was I the only one to vote for Nailbomb? Oh well . I also voted for the classic Sepultura line-up. I loved Arise and Chaos A.D. Soulfly have never really grabbed me and I haven't gotten a chance to listen to the Cavalera Conspiracy album much.

the vocalist is the epi-center of any band,particularly in metal

I wouldn't neccessarily agree with that. I know that I am often focusing on the guitarist or the drummer depending on what's happening with the song.

Necronomicon

Doctor J said it best. This part in particular, which I find is the biggest misconception that the "Pro-Max" camp make when they say he should come back:

Doctor J wrote: »

Him rejoining Sepultura does not mean you will hear Beneath The Remains II, you'll just get something similar to the last Soulfly album.

It's a pity a lot have given up on Derrick at this stage, because Dante XXI is a fantastic album. Better than anything Soulfly have ever put out.

The Cavalera Conspiracy, from the one track I've heard, sounds like a load of pants as well IMHO.

Doctor J

nedtheshed wrote: »

Maiden and Pantera had limited success and releases before Bruce and Phil joined up (and in the case of Pantera the group radically changed their sound)

In fairness, the big change in sound came after Power Metal, Anselmo's arrival didn't herald the change at all, he had already played a big part in their glam era by the time CFH came out. I would say the biggest influence on Pantera's sound and direction was Darrel. Yet you don't think they should have changed their name to coincide with their change in sound but you do think Sepultura should have?

nedtheshed wrote:

Do you think Were Maiden better or worse without Bruce?
A resounding worse IMO.

Exactly. Your opinion. I know plenty of people who are very big fans of Di'Anno era Maiden. So surely Maiden should have changed their name to coincide with this radical change in sound and not be associated with this era? As for Blaze, let's be honest, he wasn't the best singer they ever had but he got involved during a serious dip in quality which started a couple of albums before he joined. He is being unfairly maligned for a couple of crap albums when the albums immediately before them are just as bad. Hardly his fault.

nedtheshed wrote:

I take your point on Anthrax but they are pretty much the exception to the rule.

I dunno, Dio did well with Sabbath don't you think? AC/DC haven't exactly disappeared with Brian Johson on the mic

nedtheshed wrote:

We will just have to agree to disagree on Greene using the Sepultura name.

It's just a different phase of Sepultura, but a valid one. It doesn't matter to me how popular or unpopular they are or were before the change, these things don't matter, really, when you put the cd in. Yes, it sounds different to the Max era, but I would think it should sound different. Good bands don't sound the same every album, they evolve, they change their sound, sometimes members change but good bands plough on and continue to push forward musically. There is no doubt Greene-era Sepultura has done this. If you've heard Cavalera Conspiracy then you should be aware of how creatively weak Max is right now. If that's the best he's capable of then he simply has no place in Sepultura, it would be a huge regression for that band and definitely one that has nothing to do with pushin the music forward. I think you just need to listen to the music rather than worry about the names on the inlay. You might be pleasantly surprised.

And I say all this as someone who saw Sepultura in 1989 in the Top Hat too

Malice

Doctor J wrote: »

I think you just need to listen to the music rather than worry about the names on the inlay.

The whole of your post was very well put but the above line really sticks out for me. Well said!

Civilian_Target

Doctor J wrote: »

...That Cavalera Conspiracy album is undisputably weak

.............

Him rejoining Sepultura does not mean you will hear Beneath The Remains II, you'll just get something similar to the last Soulfly album. The only reason that band would get back together is $$$.

That's not something I want to hear.

Granted, Sepultura's first couple of albums with Derrick Greene were patchy at best, no better than Roots, but Roorback and Revolusongs were big steps in the right direction

OK, that pretty much sums up my sentiments too.

Having heard Soulfly and new Sepultura in concert, I know which one I preferred. Greene's a great vocalist, and has excellent presence. I didn't think so highly of Dante 11 as DrJ (even though I saw them on the Dante 11 tour) but Roorback is one of my favourites.

I have to admit, I thought Soulfly V was pretty good too.

The discussion on band names is interesting too. I think the current lineup of Sepultura's a pretty legitimate use of the name, they still sound Brazillian, and unlike Cavelera Conspiracy, their sound has evolved in the last decade.

Interestingly, with the reunion of RATM, the continuing headlining of Metallica, the disappearance of System of a Down and now Cavelera Conspiracy arriving, sometimes I think that metal's getting nostalgic and that much of the creativity is evaporating for $$$ ? Then I listen to some In Flames or Coheed and Cambria to convince myself I'm wrong

dimerocks

I would like to hear a logical argument as to why sepultura should change there name because I don't think there is one. The fact that Max and Igor are borthers doesn't mean anything. I think they should have changed their name when Jairo T left.
look its a bull**** argument.
As for CC.....absolute muck. Pretty much everything soulfly have made has been a sea of muck with a few islands of good stuff in the mix. And the main source of the muck is Maxs tired reused lyrics over and over again.
Like Sepultura or not in their current form they have not stayed in the same place like Max, they have not moved with the grain making the album that they want to not that the record label wants them too (which is proably part of the reason they aren't on RR anymore). And thats what it boils down to for me. Its Roadrunner that are really pushing for a Sepultura reunion. I think the fans are pretty split about it. I personally don't want to see it though if it happened I'd probably end up going to a show.
As for the quality of the music....Sepultura BTR - Arise is as enjoyable for me as Roorback - Dante. I'd take Roots and Against as good experimental albums. And overall not a bad album in the bunch of Sepultura stuff.

dimerocks

Doctor J wrote: »

If you've heard Cavalera Conspiracy then you should be aware of how creatively weak Max is right now. If that's the best he's capable of then he simply has no place in Sepultura, it would be a huge regression for that band and definitely one that has nothing to do with pushin the music forward.

Bingo