Abortion situation: your view

AckwelFoley

Im posting this here because i want to see what the general opinion is on this

Early last year a good friend of mine got his girlfriend pregnant. He had only met her 3 months previous and by all accounts that was a long term relationship for him - hes a pretty stubborn guy and it generally his way or no way - hence why relationships dont last, plus hes got a bit of a track record with sleeping around too.

Anyhow, hes 28 and shes 23. She has a very good job and is studying to be a professional. He was uncertain about his job and was an alcholic and a gambling addict.

She decided to have an abortion because of her personal circumstances and because her friends and family were naturally unsure as to the relationship and how long it would last and if she could afford it the up bringing the child needs at this point in time.

My friend, insisted that he would not support her decision to have an abortion and that it was wrong .. based on his religious views. He rang me very upset about it, the only advice i could give him without teling him a lie was that i think that because of his history with relationships.. his current poor financial situation and more importantly, because she is the one carrying the child and will have to care for this child for 18 years, i tried to explain that her decission was more difficult to make, i tried to tell him that from a womans perspective.. if she has the baby, esentially she's left with it, where as many men.. have kids and can really be hands off in it and essentially move on.. why they do that i dont know - you'd have to get a crow bar to remove me from my child if im ever blessed with one.. but thats not the case with some men.

The decision was made to have the abortion and that he tiold her he could never forgive her for her decision but would support her by going to england with her and paying for it.

He has become very arguementative with many ppl (friends) about this and even from ppl that are trying to be nice and tell him that its a very difficult decision for a woman to make.. i tried to be supportive with him emotionally but i simply couldnt bite my lip every time he would say that he will never forgive her fo what she done.. that annoys me a little and i try to explain my feelings as sensitively as possible.

Im not sure how clear ive made the situation to you guys, but what is your opinion on the matter? Should i have conceled my opinion and just be a "yes" man?

AlmightyCushion

Abortions for some, miniature american flags for others.

Doctor DooM

snyper wrote: »

Im posting this here because i want to see what the general opinion is on this

Early last year a good friend of mine got his girlfriend pregnant. He had only met her 3 months previous and by all accounts that was a long term relationship for him - hes a pretty stubborn guy and it generally his way or no way - hence why relationships dont last, plus hes got a bit of a track record with sleeping around too.

Anyhow, hes 28 and shes 23. She has a very good job and is studying to be a professional. He was uncertain about his job and was an alcholic and a gambling addict.

She decided to have an abortion because of her personal circumstances and because her friends and family were naturally unsure as to the relationship and how long it would last and if she could afford it the up bringing the child needs at this point in time.

My friend, insisted that he would not support her decision to have an abortion and that it was wrong .. based on his religious views. He rang me very upset about it, the only advice i could give him without teling him a lie was that i think that because of his history with relationships.. his current poor financial situation and more importantly, because she is the one carrying the child and will have to care for this child for 18 years, i tried to explain that her decission was more difficult to make, i tried to tell him that from a womans perspective.. if she has the baby, esentially she's left with it, where as many men.. have kids and can really be hands off in it and essentially move on.. why they do that i dont know - you'd have to get a crow bar to remove me from my child.. but thats not the case with some men.

The decision was made to have the abortion and that he tiold her he could never forgive her for her decision but would support her by going to england with her and paying for it.

He has become very arguementative with many ppl (friends) about this and even from ppl that are trying to be nice and tell him that its a very difficult decision for a woman to make.. i tried to be supportive with him emotionally but i simply couldnt bite my lip every time he would say that he will never forgive her fo what she done.. that annoys me a little and i try to explain my feelings as sensitively as possible.

Im not sure how clear ive made the situation to you guys, but what is your opinion on the matter?

Honestly? Your mate sounds like an arse, and a deluded one.

He reminds me of a kid, asking their parents for a puppy, who wont listen to their parents explaining how dogs grow up, need to be walked etc. They just want a puppy and thats it.

Not sure if I agree with abortion, but I cant blame this girl for not wanting your mate to ruin her life.

JavaBear

Abort, abort, abort!

AckwelFoley

SDooM wrote: »

Honestly? Your mate sounds like an arse, and a deluded one.

He reminds me of a kid, asking their parents for a puppy, who wont listen to their parents explaining how dogs grow up, need to be walked etc. They just want a puppy and thats it.

Not sure if I agree with abortion, but I cant blame this girl for not wanting your mate to ruin her life.

We are friends for 10 years, but i finally snapped there a few months ago and called him an ignorant prick.. essentially he was snapping at a couple who infact are anti abortion yet could see the circumstances, and this couple had done so much in supporting him through his problems, yet all he could do was snap at them when the couple suggested it "may be for the best"

Its 6 months now since the anbortion and hes trying to get his personal life.. his drink and gambling addiction sorted..

But knowing this guy.. i m uncertain

Billy the Kid98

Your HIS friend not hers, just tell him what he wants to hear for the time being and if he starts trying to stop her having the abortion step in and change your stance.
Thats my opinion anyway.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Hang on... this guy's an addicted gambler, alcoholic, sleeps around, can't hold down a job and.... is lecturing other people on responsibility and morality...??

WTF??

If I was her, even if I hadn't had the abortion, I'd make sure he was kept as far away from the child as possible.

If it's not too late, the question you need to ask him is this: How are you going to support both the girl and the child for the next 18 years? From there, you need to show him how other people see him and what he needs to do to change. If he doesn't listen, then there's only so much you can do.

Zaph

So he's against abortion on religious grounds and yet he sleeps with just about anyone he can? I'm pretty sure the church takes an equally dim view of that. To argue against an abortion on those grounds is hypocritical and self-righteous and he should be told to come down off his high horse and recognise that he's hardly a candidate for a model father and that plenty of women in the same position would have made the same decision.

phantom_lord

i'm all for it. reduces the ol' crime rate.

AckwelFoley

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

How are you going to support both the girl and the child for the next 18 years?

I'd have been inteested to here his answer to that one.

i quote.. verbatum


"It doesnt matter, its not right to have an abortion - she had no right to do it - why cant you see this without taking her fcuking side"

WindSock

It would all be so much easier if she could give birth on his doorstep then run away after it and tell him 'there. now it's yours'.

AckwelFoley

Zaph wrote: »

So he's against abortion on religious grounds and yet he sleeps with just about anyone he can? I'm pretty sure the church takes an equally dim view of that. To argue against an abortion on those grounds is hypocritical and self-righteous and he should be told to come down off his high horse and recognise that he's hardly a candidate for a model father and that plenty of women in the same position would have made the same decision.

Well that the thing, its laughable really, but as a very close friend (with polar oppsite moral values) i tried to aviod lecturing him

I was stuck between a rock and a ... bigger rock

Doctor DooM

snyper wrote: »

We are friends for 10 years, but i finally snapped there a few months ago and called him an ignorant prick.. essentially he was snapping at a couple who infact are anti abortion yet could see the circumstances, and this couple had done so much in supporting him through his problems, yet all he could do was snap at them when the couple suggested it "may be for the best"

Its 6 months now since the anbortion and hes trying to get his personal life.. his drink and gambling addiction sorted..

But knowing this guy.. i m uncertain

I have a friend very much like this. He was like a little brother, but when we grew up, he didn't, and now everything bad that happens to him because he has no qualifications and no motivation is everyone elses fault, despite the fact no one is holding him down shovelling the ol wacky tobaccy into him. Eventually I had to pull away from him a bit because he was just bringing me down.

Having been in this situation, I would say to be there and help him when he asks it and means it, don't when he is being a twat.


He is so in the wrong its hilarious, and he really does sound deluded.

AckwelFoley

SDooM wrote: »

I have a friend very much like this. He was like a little brother, but when we grew up, he didn't, and now everything bad that happens to him because he has no qualifications and no motivation is everyone elses fault, despite the fact no one is holding him down shovelling the ol wacky tobaccy into him. Eventually I had to pull away from him a bit because he was just bringing me down.

Having been in this situation, I would say to be there and help him when he asks it and means it, don't when he is being a twat.


He is so in the wrong its hilarious, and he really does sound deluded.

With the exception of the "weed" i think we have the same friend.

We both left college at 21, i got a job that ive had for 10 years (starting a new one tomorrow ) I was in a long ter relationship.. built a house bla bla bla

He.. went to dublin.. worked in pubs (nothing wrong with that) but.. drank 5 days a week .. gambled and had endless amounts of one night stands .. he did that for the time up until he met this girl.. he never seemed to grow up

unreggd

is he actually religious?

does he pray a lot, and go to mass on sundays?

I think the real issue he has is that he's losing a chance of security with a family

im sure he's well aware of his problems, but is in denial at the same time, if that makes sense

good luck to him

Abi

snyper wrote: »

Early last year a good friend of mine got his girlfriend pregnant. He had only met her 3 months previous and by all accounts that was a long term relationship for him - hes a pretty stubborn guy and it generally his way or no way - hence why relationships dont last, plus hes got a bit of a track record with sleeping around too.

My friend, insisted that he would not support her decision to have an abortion and that it was wrong .. based on his religious views.

Highlighted above is a contradiction in terms. Not you, what he is claiming.

High-horse, get off of. End of.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

snyper wrote: »

i quote.. verbatum


"It doesnt matter, its not right to have an abortion - she had no right to do it - why cant you see this without taking her fcuking side"

If you accepted that line of bullsh1t (and I hopw you didn't) then you're just as deluded as he is. It DOES matter and if he CAN'T see that, then it would be very difficult for me to remain a friend of his.

As someone else posted above, he hasn't got a leg to stand on religiously.

funk-you

Any opinions anyone can have about abortion are complete arse until you are in the situation. Peoples views change vey quickly when it happens.

If you like your mate you've given your opinion and now you just have to be a mate. If you don't tell him to **** off.

-Funk

Doctor DooM

snyper wrote: »

With the exception of the "weed" i think we have the same friend.

We both left college at 21, i got a job that ive had for 10 years (starting a new one tomorrow ) I was in a long ter relationship.. built a house bla bla bla

He.. went to dublin.. worked in pubs (nothing wrong with that) but.. drank 5 days a week .. gambled and had endless amounts of one night stands .. he did that for the time up until he met this girl.. he never seemed to grow up

Yeah, definitely in denial.

TBH, the best thing for HIM would for you to be ruthlessly honest with him, might make him rethink.

Mightn't be the best for your health or your relationship though.

Dropping out of college doesn't mean you ruin your life. You can always find a career another way or go back. Your friend's angry because he is losing his first real chance at a family as a consequence of his actions, but instead of dealing with it is lashing out at anything else that he can and blaming that.

Agent Smith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHeIwY3KeF4

AckwelFoley

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If you accepted that line of bullsh1t (and I hopw you didn't) then you're just as deluded as he is. It DOES matter and if he CAN'T see that, then it would be very difficult for me to remain a friend of his.

As someone else posted above, he hasn't got a leg to stand on religiously.

No, i think he full of sh1t, thats the problem.

Ive tried to be supportive of his situation, yet be realistic at the same time.. but it just got all too much and thats when we had the big falling out.. i just lost respect for the guy .. and i feel bad about it

Orion

Why would you be a Yes man - you were right. He's the one being hypocritical - no need for you to be as well.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

snyper wrote: »

No, i think he full of sh1t, thats the problem.

Ive tried to be supportive of his situation, yet be realistic at the same time.. but it just got all too much and thats when we had the big falling out.. i just lost respect for the guy .. and i feel bad about it

He is, but sometimes there's only so much you can do. Sounds like you did, and still came out feeling bad.

Only advice I can offer is to give him a call, see how he is, being as neutral as you can and tell him that if he does come round, you'll be there for him.

Best of luck with it.

WindSock

Sounds like he wants an insta-family without having to go through much effort.
What she should have done is not tell him she was having an abortion in the first place.

ergo

Zaph wrote: »

So he's against abortion on religious grounds and yet he sleeps with just about anyone he can? I'm pretty sure the church takes an equally dim view of that. To argue against an abortion on those grounds is hypocritical and self-righteous and he should be told to come down off his high horse and recognise that he's hardly a candidate for a model father and that plenty of women in the same position would have made the same decision.

so if someone has ever "slept around" or are not the model Christian/Catholic/insert religion here then they can't legitimately hold views opposing abortion.........?

Overheal

Ctrl + Alt + Delete? Abort? Retry? Fail?

Spyral

Zaph
So he's against abortion on religious grounds and yet he sleeps with just about anyone he can? I'm pretty sure the church takes an equally dim view of that. To argue against an abortion on those grounds is hypocritical and self-righteous and he should be told to come down off his high horse and recognise that he's hardly a candidate for a model father and that plenty of women in the same position would have made the same decision.

actually church teaching is that we are all sinners and so should not judge - first stones ad all that - but that abortion is evil as it kills an innocent person and defense of the innocent is a just and noble thing to do. You can do good things even if you aren't perfect. Also the church is full of sinners, e.g. the first pope denied Jesus 3 time (just to clarify things for you.)

Also maybe he's a rastafarian or some other religion !! - everyone assumes he's a Roman Catholic

"It doesnt matter, its not right to have an abortion - she had no right to do it - why cant you see this without taking her fcuking side"


As someone else posted above, he hasn't got a leg to stand on religiously.

its nothing to do with religion, more to do with a junior cert science book which can even show that life begins at conception and therefore abortion is equivalent to murder of the innocent.

Also in relation to abortion being something people think long and hard about how about some cold facts from the uk where abortion is rife

2006 Abortion Figures for England and Wales:

15,000 women had their 3rd abortion
950 women had their 5th abortion
200 had their 6th
110 were on their 7th
54 went through with their 8th

Altogether for the year a total of 193,737 terminations

evidently quite a lot of people aren't thinking too hard ...

Overheal

ergo wrote: »

so if someone has ever "slept around" or are not the model Christian/Catholic/insert religion here then they can't legitimately hold views opposing abortion.........?

It would certainly be a very unique point of view; to be a philanthropist and pro-life at the same time.

Spyral please don't use definitive statements such that abortion is evil. Its the subject of much debate for a reason: I say it isn't; that in fact it may be a much better fate for some children than to be orphaned. But thats only an opinion. Certainly not a fact.

Doctor DooM

Spyral wrote: »

actually church teaching is that we are all sinners and so should not judge - first stones ad all that - but that abortion is evil as it kills an innocent person and defense of the innocent is a just and noble thing to do. You can do good things even if you aren't perfect. Also the church is full of sinners, e.g. the first pope denied Jesus 3 time (just to clarify things for you.)

Also maybe he's a rastafarian or some other religion !! - everyone assumes he's a Roman Catholic



its nothing to do with religion, more to do with a junior cert science book which can even show that life begins at conception and therefore abortion is equivalent to murder of the innocent.

Also in relation to abortion being something people think long and hard about how about some cold facts from the uk where abortion is rife


evidently quite a lot of people aren't thinking too hard ...

It shouldn't be, but the OP pointed out that this is the grounds his friend is opposing the abortion on.

AckwelFoley

WindSock wrote: »

Sounds like he wants an insta-family without having to go through much effort.
What she should have done is not tell him she was having an abortion in the first place.

Im beginning to think the same myself

Overheal

WindSock wrote: »

Sounds like he wants an insta-family without having to go through much effort.
What she should have done is not tell him she was having an abortion in the first place.

that would fit with the pro-life philanthropy.

KnifeWRENCH

OP this incident should serve as a wakeup call for your friend. He may be lashing out at people because he feels guilty that his reckless lifestyle may have contributed to her decision to have an abortion.
Do you think that if he was a more responsible man that she would have kept the baby?
I think the best thing you can do is encourage him to try and put this incident behind him and to get his life back on track and be there to support him. If he doesn't want your help and bites your head off for it, then you should just walk away tbh.

WindSock wrote:

What she should have done is not tell him she was having an abortion in the first place.

Do you not think he had a right to know? It's good that she told him, it at least shows she's an honest open person.

Re: Spyral - I am pro-choice but those statistics are shocking. 54 women had 8 abortions?:eek:

WindSock

To be fair to the Man, he is obviously upset over it and feels helpless. I don't know what its like to be him or to be in his situation, but it seems to have affected him. Maybe he should talk to someone about it.

AlmightyCushion

I'd just like to remind people that this isn't a debate on the morality of abortion. Whether it's morally right or wrong doesn't really help the OP's situation. Can we try to keep it to discussing the situation.

Overheal

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I'd just like to remind people that this isn't a debate on the morality of abortion. Whether it's morally right or wrong doesn't really help the OP's situation. Can we try to keep it to discussing the situation.

Quoted for emphasis. Maybe this should be moved to PI?

course Im banned from there so I'll get my piece in first

Your friend certainly sounds to be a bit lost.

Billy The Kid98 wrote:

Your HIS friend not hers, just tell him what he wants to hear for the time being and if he starts trying to stop her having the abortion step in and change your stance.
Thats my opinion anyway.

I disagree and feel one of the finer points of friendship is being direct with each other.

He needs to get away from the morality of the abortion; he needs to focus on why she chose to abort. It doesnt matter if it was wrong or immoral or illegal. She chose to do it regardless. He may have to accept that it was probably because his life is so washed out at the minute that she didn't see a potential father in him. From what I've read: I can't either.

Long before he can consider having a family, or even a stable relationship, he needs to learn how to stand on his own two feet, and learn how to properly support himself first, and others second. You can't do that by drinking and gambling.

KnifeWRENCH

Overheal wrote: »

Quoted for emphasis. Maybe this should be moved to PI?

I dunno...it probably wouldn't get as many replies there.
OP said he was looking for a "general opinion" rather than advice.
This forum has a bigger audience.

randylonghorn

In fairness, Spyral is right on one thing (and he and I don't normally agree on moral issues) ... people can be vehemently opposed to abortion on moral or other grounds, and not be Catholic or even especially religious.

I'm far from religious in the conventional sense, and I have a healthy amount of skepticism for the institutional church(es) despite knowing good and decent men and women who minister in them, and who I would consider friends. I find that I have held on to at least one central tenet from Christianity though ... to try to treat others as I would like to be treated. There are worse ways to approach life.

Anyway, back to the point ... I have very open attitudes to sex and sexuality, while strongly espousing safe sex, and the use of contraception. I find myself very conflicted when it comes to abortion, however. A large part of me agrees intellectually with ideas like a woman's right to choose; I agree that some children are born into poverty, neglect and abuse, and might have been better off not born at all. And yet ... there is a part of me that is very troubled by the idea of abortion. There is a difference between prevention of conception, and abortion. Given the emotiveness of the subject, I will leave it at that, but I just wanted to point out that it is quite possible for people to have a problem with abortion despite having views which might at first glance appear contradictory. EDIT: I also agree with AC that this shouldn't turn into a debate about the morality of abortion.

All that said, snyper, I think this is at most only part of the real issue with your friend. I'm more inclined to suspect pique that he was over-ruled, combined with perhaps a longing for some kind of stability in his life ... which he seems to think having a kid / family might provide. Well, reality is that it's the parent's role to help and nurture the child, not the child's role to throw a lifeline to the father just by being.

Realistically, he hasn't put himself in a strong position to have any say in the matter, and I can't blame the woman for making her own decision fairly much without his input.

All you can really do is try to be a friend, and in my experience being a true friend does not equal being a yes-man. At the same time, there's no real point arguing with him if he's not ready to listen. In those circumstances, I'd keep a still tongue and let your lack of agreement send its own message.

Orion

Spyral wrote: »

actually church teaching is that we are all sinners and so should not judge - first stones ad all that - but that abortion is evil as it kills an innocent person and defense of the innocent is a just and noble thing to do. You can do good things even if you aren't perfect. Also the church is full of sinners, e.g. the first pope denied Jesus 3 time (just to clarify things for you.)

Well you've firmly nailed your colours to the mast anyway.

Spyral wrote: »

Also maybe he's a rastafarian or some other religion !! - everyone assumes he's a Roman Catholic

Not an unreasonable assumption tho. I'd imagine that Rastafarians are fairly much in the minority in Ireland :rolleyes:

Spyral wrote: »

its nothing to do with religion, more to do with a junior cert science book which can even show that life begins at conception and therefore abortion is equivalent to murder of the innocent.

How do I phrase this? BOLLOX. A Junior Cert catholic religion book might say this but I hate to break this to you - science books deal in facts not opinions.

nadimmu

hmm not sure about the whole abortion thing, if she had a good talk with her parents then they could work things out...which may end up having the parents take care of the baby.

I just thing abortion is the way to go, if the girl has been raped...nobody would want some strangers baby?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://www.slate.com/id/33569/entry/33571/


did you know abortions cut crime?

Nevyn

An ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure.
This may mean traveling back in time and making sure he was never born.

randylonghorn

Macros42 wrote: »

Well you've firmly nailed your colours to the mast anyway.

Lol ... in fairness, Mac, while I usually strongly disagree with Spyral, he is always 100% up-front about his views and beliefs, which I respect.

No Vatican shill him ...

Thaedydal wrote: »

An ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure.

+1

(Damn lack of "thanks" button ... I hit Quick Reply twice before I remembered it wasn't available on AH!)

Orion

That fair enough. I don't frequent AH or the Christianity forums much so I'll take your word for it. The rest of my reply stands tho

KnifeWRENCH

randylonghorn wrote: »

Realistically, he hasn't put himself in a strong position to have any say in the matter, and I can't blame the woman for making her own decision fairly much without his input.

All you can really do is try to be a friend, and in my experience being a true friend does not equal being a yes-man. At the same time, there's no real point arguing with him if he's not ready to listen. In those circumstances, I'd keep a still tongue and let your lack of agreement send its own message.

That's very good advice.
Snyper, you obviously have your best interests at heart, which means you must be 100% honest with him.
Don't conceal your opinion and be a 'yes' man - deep down you know he's making mistakes in his life and if you stand back and just go along with him it'll be of no benefit to either of ye.
All you can do is offer him your help, advice and honest opinions. If he chooses to ignore them, there's nothing you can do. As long as you try your best to help him, he'll only have himself to blame if he messes up again.

KnifeWRENCH

nadimmu wrote: »

hmm not sure about the whole abortion thing, if she had a good talk with her parents then they could work things out...which may end up having the parents take care of the baby.

I just thing abortion is the way to go, if the girl has been raped...nobody would want some strangers baby?

Err...how is this relevant to anything snyper said? Why the hell are you talking about rape?
If you want to debate the ethics of abortion, do it here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055262914

iguana

Snyper, I think your friend's girlfriend made the right decision for her and if I was her friend I would have supported her decision. However from your friend's point of view he was having a baby. He may have been excited and happy about that, a part of him could have loved that baby as soon as he found out about it. He may really have wanted to be a father. And that "baby" is now dead and I'd guess he is grieving for it.

If his girlfriend had chosen to keep the baby and had then had a miscarriage how would you treat him? Would you tell him it was for the best as he's a bit of a **** up and not responsible enough to be a father? I doubt anybody would, as that would be cruel.

Try to see it from his perspective. He thought he was about to become a father but the baby was taken away. If the mother had wanted the baby but miscarried he would be getting nothing but sympathy and understanding of his grief. But as she didn't want it so he had to stand by and let, what was to him his baby, die. But instead of his friends understanding that he is grieving and justifiably angry, he gets lectures on how sensible this was because of his irresponsibility.

randylonghorn

Very valid point of view, Iguana.

However, at the other side of the coin, re-inforcing him in his apparent attitude that he has been woefully wronged by her, that he is the one hard done by, and (I suspect) his maudlin self-pity in the bottom of many pint glasses isn't going to help him much either.

It's a hard one to hit a balance on, I agree.



(Overheal: I've been looking at your earlier post for ages in total confusion, and I think I've figured it out. You don't by any chance mean "philanderer" rather than "philanthropist", do you?)

Overheal

Randy wrote:

(Overheal: I've been looking at your earlier post for ages in total confusion, and I think I've figured it out. You don't by any chance mean "philanderer" rather than "philanthropist", do you?)

...............maybe.

*runs to the dictionary store

Intothesea

Opposing viewpoints that support his acceptance
of an uninfluenceable situation could be one way
to assuage his guilt about his general fecklessness.
I think it's likely his ego rather than his moral
convictions have been bent out of shape by
this, and that his friends supply the means
by which he can 'prove himself worthy' in some
token way. Just my 0.02.

Carrigart Exile

JavaBear wrote: »

Abort, abort, abort!

murder, murder, murder, you can help hoover up the wee bits of baby after the operation to rip it apart, that will save the nurse the horrible job.

SDooM

SDooM wrote: »

Honestly? Your mate sounds like an arse, and a deluded one.

He reminds me of a kid, asking their parents for a puppy, who wont listen to their parents explaining how dogs grow up, need to be walked etc. They just want a puppy and thats it.

+1