Spaghetti Bolognese

corblimey

Watching Heston Blumenthal (sp?) making his 6 hour spag bol last week, he had an interesting demonstration of handmade vs machine made spaghetti, in that the hand made one had tiny holes in it that 'grabbed' the sauce.

Up til now, I've been using the ould Roma and had no issues with it, but I'd quite to like to try the holey spag What sort of shop would sell this? Is "organic" spaghetti enough (like they sell in tesco) or do I need to go somewhere even more "we make our own jumpers from hemp"-like? Any recommendations?

What about making my own from scratch? Get one of those spaghetti making machines? It looks simple enough any time I see Oliver with one?

brianthebard

Why bother the ordinary stuff is perfectly good for most resturants. Tbh I'm not a fan of Heston whats his face.

blorg

If you are graduating from Roma (I presume dried) pasta then any fresh (non-dried, refrigerated) pasta will be a big step up. I buy a lot of Tesco's fresh pasta as it's quite cheap (around €1.69/500g) and it is certainly a lot nicer than the dried variety.

Better again but considerably more expensive is the pasta from Magnetti in Galway. I get this from the Best of Italy in Ranelagh but if you got in touch with them I am sure they would give you details of a shop nearest you.

Fresh pasta cooks a lot quicker and it's easier to get it "al dente."

Above is my personal experience although Delia Smith has a very interesting article which decries fresh pasta as a recent and completely non-Italian invention.

Organic in the context of pasta is only going to refer to the cultivation wheat going into the pasta, not the method of manufacture.

frobisher

De Cecco is a widely available brand of pasta that to me is far, far superior to all but the boutique pasta brands. It's also only about €1.80 a packet. I particulaly recommend their spinach tagliatelle.

NextSteps

Fresh and dried pastas are really quite different creatures: one has egg and the other doesn't.

Fresh pastas (particularly tagliatelle and stuffed pastas like ravioli and tortellini) are good for buttery, creamy sauces. They're great fun (and easy) to make but you really need a pasta machine to get the dough thin.

Spaghetti on the other hand is usually dried, as are most pasta shapes. They seem to suit tomato and olive oil-based sauces better than fresh pasta. I think Barilla and De Cecco are the best makes here.

bonkey

blorg wrote:

Above is my personal experience although Delia Smith has a very interesting article which decries fresh pasta as a recent and completely non-Italian invention.

Thats neither true nor what Delia says in that article.

Fresh pasta is jus as old in concept as dried pasta. The major distinction is that traditionally, they were used for different things with very little overlap...whereas today, there is a fad that if it involves pasta, it'll be better with fresh pasta. And accordingly, fresh pasta is becoming not-really-fresh pasta, but a sort of pseudo-fresh, soft pasta.

I would also maintain that Delia's notion of traditional dried pasta taking up to two days to dry, and being carefully watched etc. etc. is somewhat romantic. Sure...that might be the ideal, but in reality I'd wager that a lot of what was done was exactly what my fiancees grandmother did when she was a cook - make the pasta each morning for that evening's dinner.

Having said all of that...proper, handmade, semolina-based pasta is great stuff. It takes time and effort and not everyone appreciates the work that goes into it. But when you get it right....damn.....

rubadub

UB wrote:

Fresh and dried pastas are really quite different creatures: one has egg and the other doesn't.

Surely they can be either?

I have certainly seen dried noodles with & without egg, and fresh noodles with & without egg.

BaZmO*

corblimey wrote:

he had an interesting demonstration of handmade vs machine made spaghetti, in that the hand made one had tiny holes in it that 'grabbed' the sauce

The difference wasn't that the better one was handmade and the not so good one was machine made. The difference was in the material that the die was made from. (the die is the holes that the pasta is extruded through) Some places used plastic dies giving a much smoother surface on the pasta, whereas other places used cast iron dies which gave the pasta a much more textured and rough surface.

jencar01

Spaghetti Bolognese

Anyone got an easy recipe I can use?? havent cooked it in years and want to try it tonight..

Thanks

Sleepy

Not a whole lot to it really (or how I do it anyways):

1 can of chopped tomatoes
1 liberal pinch of basil
1 red pepper diced
1 onion diced
a couple of handfuls of mushrooms
splash of olive oil
salt and pepper to taste
1lb of lean minced beef

Brown the mince and leave aside, throw the rest into a large pot and stir over a medium heat for about half an hour (until the sauce is thickening up to your likening), lob in the browned mince, heat for another minute or two and serve on good pasta.

Sleepy

Oh, one other thing that can add a bit of flavour: if you have a bottle of red wine the night before and don't finish it, re-cork it and add a splash to the sauce, adds a lovely bitterness to contrast with the tomato

jencar01

Thanks for that Sleepy.. ill def try out the red wine..

I’m starving now thinking about it.. yum..

Cheers

The Hill Billy

Don't forget the garlic!

And a pinch of chili gives it a nice kick.

Evil Phil

Personally I'd keep it bubbling on a low heat for 3 or 4 hours to really get the flavour into the meat and then leave it stand overnight before serving.

hot fuss

Also.. a couple of drops of tobasco sauce and a few teaspoons of sundried tomato paste/pesto add to the yumminess!

adonis

fry the onions with garlic and beef, with some salt and pepper.
add the can of tomatoes when the meat has browned, add sugar to taste (they are really acidic those tomatoe cans) and boil for however long you like. that is the beauty of spaghetti bolognese..
sever on spaghetti! easy as....

u can also add in peppers/mushrooms/carrots at the time of the addition of the can of tomatoes

bonkey

For the tomato sauce....here's the recipe myself and herself use.

http://www.dspsrv.com/cookbook/soupnsauce.html#Basic_Tomato_Sauce_

For spag bol...

Fry the mince (seasoning as you like) and add it to the sauce before cooking in. If memory serves, in Bologna, they actually use shredded beef, rather than mince, but who cares

I'm with Phil on the ideal cooking times, but if you're in a hurry, 30 mins start-to-finish is doable.

Mr. Presentable

Not so easy, but traditional and authentic - unlike the faux we make in this part of the world.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2274506,00.html

rubadub

bonkey wrote:

If memory serves, in Bologna, they actually use shredded beef, rather than mince, but who cares

I dont bother with mince anymore. Too fatty and even the lean mince has a fair bit of fat. The real problem is you dont know what you are getting and no doubt it is the scrap meat left after cutting off proper cuts. I now get lean rib steak, it is actually cheaper than most mince (except the bottom of the barrel stuff), it is far cheaper than the lean mince and you can cut off the excess fat on it. Then cut it up into small bits. I do this with a large scissors.

A scissors is fantastic for cutting up all meats, especially when going for small cuts, really fast & safe and you dont even need a chopping board so less cleaning. I do chicken fillets straight into a pan for stir frys.

The Sweeper

Erm... I do one onion, chopped, fried off in olive oil and a knob of butter on a medium heat... remove from pan, then turn up heat and brown the mince in a hot pan... return onions to pan, season with lots of pepper and a good pinch of sea salt, add mushrooms now if adding them, and add a liberal teaspoon of dried oregano and three crushed and chopped cloves of garlic.

When the mushrooms have started to brown off, throw in one can tomatoes and a third of a pint of beef stock. Stir it all together. Allow to simmer low, covered, for 10 minutes, then stir a tablespoon of tomato puree. Taste. Then play the flavouring game - a liberal dash of mushroom ketchup or worcester sauce if you can't get mushroom ketchup. More dried oregano. More salt and pepper. A big glug of red wine or a smaller glug of port. If it's too sharp and acidic, add either a tablespoon worth of broken squares of high cocoa dark chocolate, or a tablespoon of unrefined cane sugar. Taste again. It should be rich, meaty, tomatoey and marvellous. The longer you leave it simmering low, or sitting, the more the flavours will infuse.

Finish before serving with chopped fresh basil, serve with pasta and either grated parmesan or strong cheddar on the side. Just to help pile on the pounds for a Winter carb-fest, add some fresh, warm crusty bread to the table for mopping.

rubadub

Chocolate! thats a new one, anybody else try this?

I am sure people will be asking where to get mushroom ketchup, only place I have ever seen it was dunnes, but it was not beside the regular tomato ketchup think it was along with the olive oils.

The Hill Billy

I've not tried chocolate in a spag bol, but always use it when I make a chilli.
5 minutes before serving I thrash the bejaysus out of a flake & throw it in. Tis a marvellous thing because I find that it moderates the heat of a chilli while enhancing the flavour of the spices.

FWIW - I wouldn't bother with the 70% cocoa solids stuff for a chilli.

The Sweeper

I've never tried plain milk choccie in tomato dishes. Then again I've been converted to unrefined cane sugar - the stuff that's black, chunky, sticky and smells like molasses - and for choice I'll use that over chocolate now.

Mushroom ketchup is excellent in spag bol, shepherds pie, lasagne and a splash of it over poached eggs with grilled mushroom on a sunday morning works wonders... but it is readily substitutable with worcester.

dr.bollocko

What about cumin seed? Isn't everyone forgetting the glorious wonderfulness of cumin seed?
Dried oregano? Pish.

The Sweeper

Cumin is a curry spice. I'd use it in chili, but not in spag bol. Then again, such is the variety of the spag bol recipes.

And you should try dried oregano before you pish it. Like bay leaves, it's a herb that is superior in its dried form.

bonkey

rubadub wrote:

I dont bother with mince anymore. Too fatty and even the lean mince has a fair bit of fat. The real problem is you dont know what you are getting and no doubt it is the scrap meat left after cutting off proper cuts.

I wouldn't necessarily agree.

I have a problem with some mince (admittedly, I'm talking about over here in Switzerland) because its too lean for some dishes.

Even in Ireland, getting lean mince isn't a problem. Go to your butcher, pick the meat you want, and ask him to mince it for you.

But in general, I'd agree that supermarket-bought cheap mince is often going to be less than ideal.

A scissors is fantastic for cutting up all meats, especially when going for small cuts, really fast & safe and you dont even need a chopping board so less cleaning. I do chicken fillets straight into a pan for stir frys.

Good tip.

I'll stick to my kitchen knives, but thats possibly because I've spent some time getting used to using them.....but I've no snobbery about it....whatever works is good in my book, and I know several people who use the scissors approach.

jc

Ponster

So budding cooks.....lend me your ears !

The Internet is full of spag bol recipes and yet again not only is there probably not a definitive one, what most would consider 'best' is probably far from 'traditional'.

Besides the basic 'onion/beef/tomato/wine' I've seen some with pancetta, dried mushrooms and beef stock.

So do you do anything different and what in your opinion makes the best recipe? The best ingredients? Not using a stock cube? Simmering for hours and hours ?

The Sweeper

Hmmm... Minced onion, beef mince, garlic added later, beef stock, tinned tomatoes, tomato puree, sliced field mushrooms, dried oregano, fresh basil, a glug of port, a spoonful of cane sugar or unrefined dark brown sugar. Never let it boil, but leave it to sit on a low heat, throwing up the occasional blurping bubble, for an hour or two. Better again, then leave it overnight for the flavours to develop and reheat it the next day, over a low heat, for another hour.

Serve with al-dente spaghetti and a sinful heap of grated cheese on top (I like a strong white cheddar/parmesan mix).

smashey

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Hmmm... Minced onion, beef mince, garlic added later, beef stock, tinned tomatoes, tomato puree, sliced field mushrooms, dried oregano, fresh basil, a glug of port, a spoonful of cane sugar or unrefined dark brown sugar. Never let it boil, but leave it to sit on a low heat, throwing up the occasional blurping bubble, for an hour or two. Better again, then leave it overnight for the flavours to develop and reheat it the next day, over a low heat, for another hour.

Serve with al-dente spaghetti and a sinful heap of grated cheese on top (I like a strong white cheddar/parmesan mix).

whitewashman has it so good.

The Sweeper

Actually whitewashman regularly pats his stomach and complains 'woman you're making me fat'.

To which I happily respond that he's my fat girl, and I'm his feeder.

Toto Wolfcastle

I always throw in a grated carrot when I'm cooking the onion. It makes it lovely and sweet.

JæKæ

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Never let it boil, but leave it to sit on a low heat, throwing up the occasional blurping bubble, for an hour or two. Better again, then leave it overnight for the flavours to develop and reheat it the next day, over a low heat, for another hour.

Yep-the secret is slow cooking for hours. It makes all the difference. I add the mushrooms for the last 10 minutes, so they don't shrink to nothing.

RE*AC*TOR

worcester sauce

Minder

Diced onion, garlic, finely diced carrot and celery. Beef Mince and veal mince. Very finely chopped chicken liver. Tomatoes and wine, seasoning, a touch of oregano and some water - let it cook for a couple of hours at least. Very meaty flavour - delicious.

Ponster

Minder wrote: »

Diced onion, garlic, finely diced carrot and celery. Beef Mince and veal mince. Very finely chopped chicken liver. Tomatoes and wine, seasoning, a touch of oregano and some water - let it cook for a couple of hours at least. Very meaty flavour - delicious.

But is it still Spaghetti Bolognese or just a meaty Italian sauce?

Minder

Ponster wrote: »

But is it still Spaghetti Bolognese or just a meaty Italian sauce?

It is a Bolognese recipe from the Dean & DeLuca deli in NY

Ponster

Ok. I guess that Spaghetti Bolognese is whatever you makes you happy

Thanks for the replies folks. I'll try some of them the next time I go cooking.

FYI, I'm off to Italy next weekend and will try myself some of the wonderful Bolognese sauce which surprises some people when they discover that not only are there no tomatoes in it but there's no spaghetti either

Dizzyblonde

I throw it into the crock pot and leave it there all day.

Tree

a spoon of pesto and a generous blobbing of sweet chilli sauce, mmmmmmmmmmmm

BaZmO*

Check out Delia's recipe for a traditional Ragu (it's on her website). It's not exactly a Bolognese but it is gorgeous.

antoniosicily

start with extra-virgin olive oil, chop an onion and put it into the pot; when the color is like gold add minced meat (I usually add a little bit of salt at this time) and let it cook for 5-10 minutes, then add tomato, you can use tomato sauce (which is good) or peeled tomato, 3.5kg of tomato for 500gr of minced meat is a good balance. Peel a carrot and add it into the pot, I prefer not to chop eat, the carrot will ease the acid of tomato, which is the less edible thing I found here :-)

At this point wait for the tomato sauce to boil and then set the fire to 3 or 4 (in a scale of 1-12) and wait 3 hours; sometimes you'll have to rinse the sauce because it tends to stick to the inner surface of the pot.

At the end add sugar and salt, if you add them before you will end up with an overspiced sauce.

Suitable for home freezing.

--
Notes: bolognese == ragu', we have just ragu' in Italy; I don't know why there is a French name for this sauce, I don't think that Bologna is in France, unless something changed while I was in Ireland

Notes2: usually every family has its own recipe for a proper sauce, I tried to find a general recipe, but it could vary, for example you can use other beef cuts as base of your sauce, you can add onions after the meat and so on.

The Sweeper

I use Delia's ragu recipe to make quite a dry sauce for lasagne. Works a treat. It has chicken livers in it too, and just a note on using them: I buy chicken livers in a pack with about 400g in it and I probably use about 1-1.5 kilos of meat in the ragu sauce, depending if I'm mixing beef mince with veal or pork mince or whatever. The temptation is to use the whole pack of chicken livers because you'll use a bit less after cleaning and snipping them and chopping them etc.

Don't do it. The flavour of chicken liver is pretty strong and it becomes overpowering if you add it to a long, slow-cook recipe. They are a great addition for richness, but I wouldn't use more than 200g to a kilo of other meat, or they become all you can taste.

jdivision

Ponster wrote: »

But is it still Spaghetti Bolognese or just a meaty Italian sauce?

To the best of my knowledge spag bol is made in Italy with veal mince, or certainly some of same.

Lurvely

I use finely chopped onion, a little garlic, steak mince, peppers, mushrooms, a teaspoon of pesto, tomatoes, tomato puree, oregano & basil. I let it simmer for ages & its gorgeous, even nicer the next day I love grated parmesan on top..beautiful.

Ponster

jdivision wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge spag bol is made in Italy with veal mince, or certainly some of same.

It depends on the region really. You can travel into the next valley or town and find a new *authentic* recipe

I've had it with several times with a veal pork mix and once I think that was all veal, both were wonderful. But the thing they had in common was that there was no tomato sauce nor tomatoes used.

The Sweeper

What was the sauce base then?

Ponster

What little I know comes from speaking to Italians but.....

Spaghetti Bolognese as described in the recipes above in not an Italian recipe. As antoniosicily pointed out, even the name "Spaghetti Bolognese" is French, not Italian

I guess it's like Chicken tikka masala which is supposed to be a British dish and not Indian.

In Italy it's called a Ragu or Bolognese sauce and the recipe is fixed as :

minced beef: 300gr
very finely chopped bacon: 150 gr
finely chopped carrot: 50gr
finely chopped celery: 50gr
finely chopped onion: 50gr
double concentrate tomato paste: 30gr
white/red wine (dry): half a glass
whole fresh milk: 1 glass
salt, pepper.

You'll see that there is a little bit of tomato paste (no tomatoes) and it's served with tagliatelle or pappardelle and not spaghetti. But once you have an Italian sauce that's made from fresh tomatoes then yes, you do use spaghetti.

This is why I asked for people's different Spag Bol recipies as opposed to asking for 'proper'


This is like the Irish Stew recipe I guess. Proper "Bolognese sauce" like proper Irish Stew has a fixed, defined recipe. This doesn't mean to say that you can't add new things to it and change it. I couldn't imagine making this without garlic for example

antoniosicily

there's a little bit of misunderstanding here:

ragu' is a recipe which comes from Bologna, in Italy, so outside Italy sometimes it's called bolognese, but it's an *italian* recipe, made with sauce (see the recipe); apart from variants in italy we have two different ragu', the bolognese one (with mainly minced meat) and the one from naples (with many meats); both of them have tomato sauces.

the official recipe, should be this:
http://www.accademiaitalianacucina.it/cgi-bin/dbview.pl?ricette.txt+dbviewer.html+599
(in italian sorry)

Minder

Ponster wrote: »

In Italy it's called a Ragu or Bolognese sauce and the recipe is fixed as :

minced beef: 300gr
very finely chopped bacon: 150 gr
finely chopped carrot: 50gr
finely chopped celery: 50gr
finely chopped onion: 50gr
double concentrate tomato paste: 30gr
white/red wine (dry): half a glass
whole fresh milk: 1 glass
salt, pepper.

What happens if you want to make it for a big crowd?;)

Ponster

Hmmm, that link isn't working but I figured it out....Weird I was on that site yesterday which is whjere I got the recipe *Iù posted but I can't find it now.... ?

Do you mean this one ?

300 gr di pomodori pelati, 150 gr di polpa di maiale, 100 gr di polpa di vitello, 100 gr di petto di pollo sminuzzato, 50 gr di vino rosso secco, 30 gr di burro, un cucchiaino di conserva di pomodoro, un cucchiaio di lardo, sedano, carota, cipolla, 300 gr di tagliatelle all’uovo fatte in casa, formaggio parmigiano reggiano, pepe, sale

It says "Tagliatelle Al Ragù" but isn't there chicken in there ?

Ponster

Minder wrote: »

What happens if you want to make it for a big crowd?;)

You can't. The rest have to put up with chip butties !