Magners set to bring in play-offs

zAbbo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7341673.stm

The Magners League is expected to bring in end-of-season play-offs to determine its champion.

The format, mirroring the successful Guinness Premiership model, is set to be introduced in the 2009/10 season.

The top four clubs at the end of the regular campaign are expected to enter into semi-finals and a final to determine the overall champion.

"It'll maintain interest in the league through to the end of the year," said league chief executive David Jordan.

I think this is a good call, and gives more end of season interest.

Royale with Cheese

Normally I'd say bringing in play offs to crown the champions of a league is absolutely retarded, but since nobody seems to care about the Magners league this can't really hurt.

Jigsaw

Utterly stupid idea imo. Why then aim to top the league if coming in fourth confers as much benefit as coming first?

1 Leinster PLD 14 PTS 50
2 Munster PLD 13 PTS 39
3 Cardiff Blues PLD 14 PTS 37
4 Llanelli Scarlets PLD 14 PTS 36

So with this system Llanelli could potentially win the Magners League yet be so far behind Leinster, who in turn could throw away a good season through perhaps having one bad match. To hear anyone advocate this system frankly beggars belief. I know it goes on in the Guinness Premiership but I think it is w*nk there too.

Amz

Didn't they have play offs a number of years back?

Is that not what the Celtic Cup was?

Tim Robbins

Jigsaw wrote: »

Utterly stupid idea imo. Why then aim to top the league if coming in fourth confers as much benefit as coming first?

1 Leinster PLD 14 PTS 50
2 Munster PLD 13 PTS 39
3 Cardiff Blues PLD 14 PTS 37
4 Llanelli Scarlets PLD 14 PTS 36

So with this system Llanelli could potentially win the Magners League yet be so far behind Leinster, who in turn could throw away a good season through perhaps having one bad match. To hear anyone advocate this system frankly beggars belief. I know it goes on in the Guinness Premiership but I think it is w*nk there too.

Yes it's stupid idea it's either a league or a cup. They should reward teams for where the finish after the league and leave it like that.

This could be done by €€€ or by getting a better seed for the H cup.

That said the super 14, top 14 and GP all follow this format, so you just never know. Under the current system, Leinster for coming first (hopefully) would get a home draw against the scarlets which would see them get a final.

The higher ranked team in the final should get the home venue.
If not how would it be decided?

toomevara

Play off's are like marmite, you love 'em or hate 'em, personally I love 'em both as a superleague and a Guinness prem fan...they work really well in both competitions and give a whole extra edge to the competition and the teams preparation.

Also keeps a competition alive as a going concern for more teams. There was huge controversy in both competitions when they were introduced but no one would ever consider going back....

Reckon it'll work particularly well for the ML as it'll mean teams wont have to give up on it, or treat it as a second class citizen in pursuit of the HC. It'll become a much more strategic and interesting affair....imagine a season where say munster, Leinster the Ospreys and Llaneli are all playing off at the end for the honours...fantastic box-office...

ozt9vdujny3srf

I can see why it would mean more teams wil have something to play for come the end of the season, but if they are going to go down that road, then the should make it a pseudo cup competition. Divide the comp into 2 5 team divisions, then have the top 2 teams from each division play in a semi final and a final over 2 legs. This would also mean there would be less games so you wouldnt have as much team dilution by the internationals. I can tell there will be a fe poplewho wouldnt like this idea. TBh i do have a couple of reservations myself, but noone seems to care about the magners league but it is really important to ireland scotland and wales that it succeeds.

escobar

Copy rugby league??........ Keep it as it is. maybe have a mini knockout cup of the proven best 4 teams that season. Would be good...

Does the english league really do this..... Really ....Do supporters of rugby union not get pissed off when a team wins two games in a row and all of a sudden is the best team in that league.

Stev_o

escobar wrote: »

Copy rugby league??........ Keep it as it is. maybe have a mini knockout cup of the proven best 4 teams that season. Would be good...

Does the english league really do this..... Really ....Do supporters of rugby union not get pissed off when a team wins two games in a row and all of a sudden is the best team in that league.

Well if you look at the GP this year there isnt a huge gap between teams in the number of matches won. As it stands the top four each team only has win of 11 [12 in Baths case and they are 2nd]. But we also have 3 teams that can get into the play off's Sale, Scaracens and Wasps making it a extremely tense and competitive competition at the moment.

I knew going on and on about it on this forum they'd finally introduce it ^^

I think its a step in the right direction though, it will be interesting to see it next year

Crash

I think whether its a success or not depends on how close the top four are - for instance with a large points spread between top and the rest, then its slightly demeaning, but if the norm becomes quite a close top four then I have no issues with it.

Al_Fernz

toomevara wrote: »

Play off's are like marmite, you love 'em or hate 'em, personally I love 'em both as a superleague and a Guinness prem fan...they work really well in both competitions and give a whole extra edge to the competition and the teams preparation.

Also keeps a competition alive as a going concern for more teams. There was huge controversy in both competitions when they were introduced but no one would ever consider going back....

Reckon it'll work particularly well for the ML as it'll mean teams wont have to give up on it, or treat it as a second class citizen in pursuit of the HC. It'll become a much more strategic and interesting affair....imagine a season where say munster, Leinster the Ospreys and Llaneli are all playing off at the end for the honours...fantastic box-office...

Couldn't agree more with this.

Doing the ML in play-off format will help improve the league's status. ATM you have a season filled with mediocre, relatively unimportant games. There's rarely a really big game that provokes a lot of interest. With a play-off format you're at least guaranteed 4 big games a year.

Tim Robbins

Al_Fernz wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with this.

Doing the ML in play-off format will help improve the league's status. ATM you have a season filled with mediocre, relatively unimportant games. There's rarely a really big game that provokes a lot of interest. With a play-off format you're at least guaranteed 4 big games a year.

Disagree with this. The derby matches are always taken very seriously. They are effectively trials for players.

Al_Fernz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Disagree with this. The derby matches are always taken very seriously. They are effectively trials for players.

Yes, but a playoff system still has the same incentives for teams to win. Its not just a case of winning two matches in a row at the end of the season. You still have to win a large proportion of your matches during the season to qualify. Teams would still take derby matches seriously.

Also important derby matches shouldn't be "trials." People want to see teams field their best sides against their rivals. That only happens rarely in the current format. With a playoff system there's a far greater chance of this.

escobar

çrash_000 wrote: »

I think whether its a success or not depends on how close the top four are - for instance with a large points spread between top and the rest, then its slightly demeaning, but if the norm becomes quite a close top four then I have no issues with it.

If it happened this year in the league it would be disasterous, by your admission. Surely with Leinster gauranteed a top four place . All that would matter . Their last few games would have been uninteresting and inconsequential.
Same as probably three of the teams in the league as the league would be finishing up . Or should I call it the pre qualification mini 2 game cup.... Certainly not a perfect scenario

Inquitus

People are ofc going to have different views on this, but even Leinster fans surely cannot say hand on heart that they are the best team in the ML....despite the standings....at the current time.

The 4 best are definately Leinster, Munster, Ospreys plus 1. A high tempo full on playoff system is a great way to sort the men from the boys at the end of a long season. Remember the Leinster v Munster Final back in the early days, wouldn't it be great to have a game like that at the end of the year? neither of the regular season matchups have been (or will be) proper full blooded affairs, though having seen Munster's Team for Sat this will be somewhat close to full on.

With this system you guarantee 4 high profile, full blooded games in front of massive dcrowds, with great TV Exposure.......it is definately a way to raise the ML profile, in this fans opinion.

Erin Go Brath

I think this is the shot in the arm that the ML needs. Alright it may be hard knocks for a team that builds up a big lead, but this should be offset somewhat by a home semi, and maybe home final for the highest finishing team. It will boost this competition i have no doubts whatsoever. Just think of the interest a Munster v Leinster winner-takes-all final would generate. I'd give this new format a big thumbs up anyway.

Scootay

Inquitus wrote: »

even Leinster fans surely cannot say hand on heart that they are the best team in the ML

I say they are. Who has been better over the league? Leinster have lost at home to Llanelli and away to Glasgow but beaten both of them in the return leg. No team has been able to get the better of them home and away while they have done so to Cardiff, the Ospreys, and Connacht. After tomorrow they'll have done so to Munster as well and they may well finish the season adding Edinburgh and the Dragons to that list.

If these playoffs were brought in this season then Leinster could play a second team for the remainder of their league fixtures and still make the playoffs. What fan wants to see a team end a league campaign like that? By all means enter the top 4 into a cup at the end but leave the league champions as champions. They'll have earned it over the season.

Stev_o

Scootay wrote: »

I say they are. Who has been better over the league? Leinster have lost at home to Llanelli and away to Glasgow but beaten both of them in the return leg. No team has been able to get the better of them home and away while they have done so to Cardiff, the Ospreys, and Connacht. After tomorrow they'll have done so to Munster as well and they may well finish the season adding Edinburgh and the Dragons to that list.

If these playoffs were brought in this season then Leinster could play a second team for the remainder of their league fixtures and still make the playoffs. What fan wants to see a team end a league campaign like that? By all means enter the top 4 into a cup at the end but leave the league champions as champions. They'll have earned it over the season.

Teams that send second string sides wont get into the play off's

Inquitus

Scootay wrote: »

I say they are. Who has been better over the league? Leinster have lost at home to Llanelli and away to Glasgow but beaten both of them in the return leg. No team has been able to get the better of them home and away while they have done so to Cardiff, the Ospreys, and Connacht. After tomorrow they'll have done so to Munster as well and they may well finish the season adding Edinburgh and the Dragons to that list.

If these playoffs were brought in this season then Leinster could play a second team for the remainder of their league fixtures and still make the playoffs. What fan wants to see a team end a league campaign like that? By all means enter the top 4 into a cup at the end but leave the league champions as champions. They'll have earned it over the season.

Meh it's crap and you know it, a ML is much more meaningful with playoffs, as it negates the factor of who gets to play their best 15 most often, and who has to rest players more often ahead of big european games, or EDF games.

Atm you are pretty much guaranteed each year that the best 4 teams will be in the top 4 spots, there is no better way to then sort out who is really the best than a playoff.

For a league struggling for respectability, the playoffs are a way of giving 4 huge matches of great significance with a high profile.

Anyone who thinks the ML is a genuine full blooded contest atm should go back and review some of the sides that have been fielded so far this campaign by a number of the teams.

toomevara

Scootay wrote: »

I say they are. Who has been better over the league?

..and I defend unto the death you're right to say so as a loyal and proud Leinsterman (I'm assuming here;)) but with regards to the ML we can never really know because teams like the Ospreys, Munster, Llanelli, Edinburgh field less than first choice XV's due to HC, EDF commitments....

So there's always that sneaking doubt in the back of the head, and that applies to all those who win it, I'd be saying the same thing if Munster were perched up there this season.

Re: Leinster I really rate them this season and have really enjoyed watching them play but to really know who's best in the land nothing less than a head to head winner takes all confrontation in the heineken will conclusively answer your question...alas we've been denied that this year, but this weekends game is shaping up nice having said that....

Al_Fernz

IMO this thread needs a poll pronto!

Podge_irl

Al_Fernz wrote: »

People want to see teams field their best sides against their rivals. That only happens rarely in the current format. With a playoff system there's a far greater chance of this.

Rarely? That's completely exaggerating the problem. There are full sides fielded more often than not and the Irish teams will only be missing their internationals for 2 games next season.

but even Leinster fans surely cannot say hand on heart that they are the best team in the ML.

Leinster have been, by a reasonable distance, the best and most consistent team in the league this season. Leagues and championships aren't given out based on ranking systems, you actually have to play the games. Whether Leinster are "better" than Munster or the Ospreys is immaterial, they have been better in the league over the course of this season.

and who has to rest players more often ahead of big european games, or EDF games.

Ospreys, Munster, Llanelli, Edinburgh field less than first choice XV's due to HC, EDF commitments....

That's their own decision. They don't have to rest those players, they choose to. Its called squad management and is part of what it takes to win a league.
International call-ups are a different matter obviously, but will be less of an issue next year hopefully.


I wouldn't have wanted play-offs last year or the year before when it might have helped Leinster, and I don't want them in the future. They're little more than a money-making exercise and a chance for a big day out. The negate the entire point of what a league is about.

Inquitus

Podge_irl wrote: »

I wouldn't have wanted play-offs last year or the year before when it might have helped Leinster, and I don't want them in the future. They're little more than a money-making exercise and a chance for a big day out. The negate the entire point of what a league is about.

The fact that a decent swedge of the ML doesn't make a serious run at the ML, negates it's importance. There's alot of money to be made from winning the HC (and even the EDF), there's next to none to be made from winning the ML. This is why sides prioritise the other competitions above and beyond the ML.....it's not squad management, it's prioritising the competitions that are are highest profile and return the best financial rewards and sponsorship. So say Leinster win the ML and Munster the HC........who will the plaudits go to? Who will the Sponsors regard in a better light? Which province will benefit most?

Podge_irl

Leinster are actually fairly well off at the moment largely due to the high attendances at ML games.

The constant referencing of the HEC is missing the point and irrelevant. Introducing play-offs won't suddenly make everyone think the ML is as important. The HEC is the premier European competition and the Irish especially have an oddly large fixation with it. But the ML is clearly in better health now then it was 5 years ago, and its definitely more fiercely competed for that it has been in the past. I'm aware of the need for competition prioritisation, but resting players en masse teams simply don't have to rest the numbers of players they do. They choose to do so (Ospreys and, usually, Munster being the biggest proponents of this) because they think it benefits them, there are as many people who think getting more match time together is more beneficial. I don't think teams who rest players and end up losing should be awarded a second shot at it at the end of the season through two knock-out matches. Hell, play-offs would mean teams who rest players have a better shot of winning the ML, which will hardly help it improve.

[Jackass]

Amz wrote: »

Didn't they have play offs a number of years back?

Is that not what the Celtic Cup was?

Yeah the Celtic league was orgionaly 2 groups of about 8 because the welsh hadn't gone regional yet so Leinster and Munster both won their respective groups and played a play-off final to determine the league.

Both were un-beaten and pretty much hockied everyone in their group so they changed the format the following year iirc.

The celtic cup was something different, but proved uterly pointless so they scrapped it.

Not a fan of a play-off system either, a league is a league. Wouldn't be complaining if we scrapped a fourth that season and went on to win the title, but would it really be a true reflection of the best team over the course of a season? (As is the measure of a league vs a cup competition)

Erin Go Brath

This thread is going the way i expected. Munster fans say yay, Leinster fans say nay.

I reckon Leinster fans are afraid to take us on in a big final.

[Jackass]

A couple of clips from the last Celtic / Magners league play-off final!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9VpvcBh7J8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnMY12ZdRls&feature=related



No it's not about that, of course who's to say Leinster wouldn't benefit from it as much as anybody as we're not going to be top every year (havn't won it since above year in '01), it just so happens that we are this year, but if you look at a top 4 finish we'd have been in the play-offs every single year!! So to date Leinster are probably the team that would have benefitted the most out of anybody, but I just think play-off finals to leagues are a bit of a cop out, it's not a cup competition, it's a league.

Just my opinion, it works well elsewhere, but not my idea of determening a "true" winner over the course of the season. (Can you really be the "champion" finishing 20 odd points behind the top team and they have 1 off day the whole season and suddenly another team wins the "league"?)

RuggieBear

[QUOTE='[Jackass] (Can you really be the "champion" finishing 20 odd points behind the top team and they have 1 off day the whole season and suddenly another team wins the "league"?)[/QUOTE]

Wasps have made a speciality of it.

toomevara

RuggieBear wrote: »

Wasps have made a speciality of it.

Just pre-empted my post, it just requires a different focus and perspective than zero-sum rugby. Wasps are at it again this season...started slow, testing new talent ,combinations and plays, settle in a team and now edging up the table. I reckon they'll win it again...form team in the Gp at the minute...anyone who wants to know how to handle play-off rugby need look no further

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

Just pre-empted my post, it just requires a different focus and perspective than zero-sum rugby. Wasps are at it again this season...started slow, testing new talent ,combinations and plays, settle in a team and now edging up the table. I reckon they'll win it again...form team in the Gp at the minute...anyone who wants to know how to handle play-off rugby need look no further

Bah Bath will win it that ll be my guess as long as Abendon doesnt f up

dc69

[Jackass] wrote: »

A couple of clips from the last Celtic / Magners league play-off final!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9VpvcBh7J8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnMY12ZdRls&feature=related



No it's not about that, of course who's to say Leinster wouldn't benefit from it as much as anybody as we're not going to be top every year (havn't won it since above year in '01), it just so happens that we are this year, but if you look at a top 4 finish we'd have been in the play-offs every single year!! So to date Leinster are probably the team that would have benefitted the most out of anybody, but I just think play-off finals to leagues are a bit of a cop out, it's not a cup competition, it's a league.

Just my opinion, it works well elsewhere, but not my idea of determening a "true" winner over the course of the season. (Can you really be the "champion" finishing 20 odd points behind the top team and they have 1 off day the whole season and suddenly another team wins the "league"?)

you know those videos are seriously old,when you hear people saying "young O'Connell" and also Bod has pace in that vid:)

personally I dont really like playoffs.

[Jackass]

haha ya I know, and the state of the Leinster Jersey, forgot all about that Jersey, mank! Also Horgan in at 12 and D'Arcy on the Right wing (Although wearing 11 Jersey...probably to fool Munster to where this young unknown player will start!! :pac:)

RuggieBear

i like that jersey!

funny to see hickie with hair too.

D'arcy was awesome on the wing. He lost a bit of pace when Bory did him in...

psicic

+1 for separate silverware; a "league" win to still be the team that finishes first in the table at end of year, "cup" win to be team from top four that wins playoffs/knockouts.

Purely from a fan's perspective, I welcome the chance of two extra Leinster games a year!!!