Don't believe the Hype

studiorat

After looking at Dav's recent therad (hi Dav) I thought I'd point out an article I saw some time back. I don't mind using cheap equipment, what I do mind is companies (they are all guilty of it) selling crap and marketing it as some kind of wonderful studio analog warmer upper tool that will change your life.

Folks! Don't buy anything until you actually listen to the thing!!!!!

Have a look at this for example.... http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

brettzy

Thats a funny article. I always knew behringer took the mick but thats plain evil!

Great advice Studiorat!

studiorat

Well their headphone amp is alright, and that AD8000 yoke is good value, so they are giving the people what they want.

Or should I say what they think they want...

I was told the valve amp thing was a "catch-penny" by a very experienced engineer about 15 years ago. Someone who was around the first time valve gear was being used! Just cause it says its good doesn't mean it is...

jtsuited

lol.
personally i wouldn't go near behringer audio stuff with a barge pole.

however their cheap as chips midi-controllers are bloody amazing for the price. just got a bcf2000. It's cheap in every possible way but it allows me to have relatively high quality motorised long throw faders under my fingers for just under 200 euro.
A no-brainer if you ask me.

there was shock and disbelief a few months back when it turned out that daft punk were basing all of their live set control around 2 behringer controllers (think it was the bcd2000's).
Two of the cheapest, 'crappiest' things ever made standing beside two moog voyagers on a live rig didn't seem to make much sense.
however, what was the competition? everything else was more expensive and took up more space.

When I see these things like the euphonix controllers coming out it makes me laugh. Yes it's nice to have a bit more quality in your controller. But i'm sure there are much better quality computer keyboards out there for people. but you don't need them. letters typed with a crap keyboard are exactly the same. midi cc data coming out of a euphonix control system is number for number identical to your absolutely 'crap' behringer midi controller.

Sorry for going slightly OT.

booooonzo

Hi guys, been lurking here for a while now as well as gear slutz.
Kinda got caught up in the hype over there about the difference pres make in general and was thinking of upgrading my current pres (rme 800 and spl goldmike and onyx) which are all fairly similar.
I was looking for a really good vocal pre but the more i thought about it and read I dont think these exotic pre's really do make the BIG difference.

I know the culminative effect is what really maters but for vocals would i notice a worthwhile difference than my gold mike if say i got a grace 101 or Great River ME-1NV.

I think maybe better (more suitable) mics are in order first as im not liking what i have. (NT2 and AT 3033a) but then im worried my pres wont be up to the job if i be;ieve what i read

Anyone here much experience with high end pres and mics? would say a pelsuo 22 251 with my pres be a waste or my AT3033a with a Great River even make a noticeable difference on just vocal?

for what its worth i picked the Telefunken 251 as the nicest mic on male vocal on the 3d audio mic test and the Soundelux Elux 251 in the top 5 as well after some vintage Neumann's and manelys and my 3033a got thrown out fairly early.

anyone done the mic pre test??

brettzy

booooonzo wrote: »

Hi guys, been lurking here for a while now as well as gear slutz.
Kinda got caught up in the hype over there about the difference pres make in general and was thinking of upgrading my current pres (rme 800 and spl goldmike and onyx) which are all fairly similar.
I was looking for a really good vocal pre but the more i thought about it and read I dont think these exotic pre's really do make the BIG difference.

I know the culminative effect is what really maters but for vocals would i notice a worthwhile difference than my gold mike if say i got a grace 101 or Great River ME-1NV.

I think maybe better (more suitable) mics are in order first as im not liking what i have. (NT2 and AT 3033a) but then im worried my pres wont be up to the job if i be;ieve what i read

Anyone here much experience with high end pres and mics? would say a pelsuo 22 251 with my pres be a waste or my AT3033a with a Great River even make a noticeable difference on just vocal?

for what its worth i picked the Telefunken 251 as the nicest mic on male vocal on the 3d audio mic test and the Soundelux Elux 251 in the top 5 as well after some vintage Neumann's and manelys and my 3033a got thrown out fairly early.

anyone done the mic pre test??

Pre amps do make a big difference. I'm betting the great river would be a decent step up from the goldmike. I haven't used either so I can't say for sure. But I used to have a TL audio 5051 and at the time thought it was great with an se gemini. Then I bought a Focusrite ISA 430 producer pack and the difference was huge. Vocals were more open, rich and the bottom end was tight.

I think in your case though you should try out a nice mic with your pre amp and see how that goes. Then try some pre amps out once you've gotten familar with the new mic.

brettzy

BTW, I have a Neve 1073 DPA which I find myself reaching it more than any of the other pre when doing vocals. It is amazing at everything. Maybe it's one for you to consider in the future

teamdresch

If you only record one thing at a time, get one great mic and one great preamp and every track you record will improve as a result.
That'll tend to add up to a better aggregate result.
I think you'll find that once you get in to the realm of quality preamps, whichever one you buy will serve you well.. they're just different flavours of good.
Don't worry too much about which one is 'best'.
If possible though, try out two or three of them and see which one suits YOU best.

Good luck with it!

studiorat

The SPL will have to go first anyway. Used to be one in the studio, it was rubbish and then it broke down.

Savman

One might argue that anyone who purchases audio gear only looking for a yellow-ish warmy tube glow is just asking for trouble...

PaulBrewer

brettzy wrote: »

BTW, I have a Neve 1073 DPA which I find myself reaching it more than any of the other pre when doing vocals. It is amazing at everything. Maybe it's one for you to consider in the future

That's our best seller - however it's also the one I suggest people will probably like the most.

I remember, back in the days before electricity, trying a Focusrite ISA 215 (the good one that Rupert designed afore he sold the company!)

I'd been using a DDA console and had made lots of reasonable recordings, though nothing special.

When I A/Bed it on vocals acoustics and kick and snare it sounded a bit better than the ole DDA but , I thought at the time, nothing to write home about.

However when I'd tracked up all the overdubs and BVs etc. the penny dropped.

It was the best sounding thing I'd done up until that stage.

I will personally go to your town and fight you and your family in the street if you think 'proper' mic pres don't make a BIG, if not the biggest difference.

That amplification stage between a microphone's tiny output and the robust Line Level of a mic pres output is where an awful lot of music is gained or lost.

I also think that while different High End pres have slightly different characteristics it's the difference between having your steak medium or well done. Either way it will still be a steak unlike the Spam (as in Spiced Ham . not the emails about making your cock bigger!) of a cheap mic pre.


Perhaps I should organise a Mic Pre Event where we could get a singer/acoustic guitarist in to Westland and show in practice what we, who are lucky enough to use the posh stuff, know as fact?

Thoughts anyone?

Perhaps Dav could be in charge of the Hammer?:eek:

I know of 2 other units by Guitar FX Manufacturers that use the Yellow Led trick too!

dav nagle

Perhaps Dav could be in charge of the Hammer?:eek:



I relish the taught of smashing fake equipment up!!

squibs

My feeling is however that probably the tube is connected but the parameters within which it is running are not sufficient to activate any of the several mechanisms that make a tube glow. And if it doesn't glow, what would have been the point of putting it on display? Hence the LEDs to compensate. Perhaps they were an afterthought.

I think this is the key passage. If the circuit is designed to put a small load on the tube, it wont glow (much). Ant if its not glowing we assume its not working. So if the tube is coloring the sound, the LEDs are more marketing than deceit. I use a fair bit of behringer workhorse stuff and most of it is grand.

PaulBrewer

squibs wrote: »

I think this is the key passage. If the circuit is designed to put a small load on the tube, it wont glow (much). Ant if its not glowing we assume its not working. So if the tube is coloring the sound, the LEDs are more marketing than deceit. I use a fair bit of behringer workhorse stuff and most of it is grand.

I'm not sure that's correct Squibs.
As far as I recall Valves glow because of their filament, similar to a light bulb. It's this filament which emits electrons.

So no light = no sound!

Also the valves glow doesn't vary after it gets up to temperature, unless faulty.

I think ole Mr.B may be doing a bit of 'electronic marketing' there!

PaulBrewer

There's a very obvious test to do - whip the valve out and see does it still work!

squibs

I'm not sure that's correct Squibs.
As far as I recall Valves glow because of their filament, similar to a light bulb. It's this filament which emits electrons.

So no light = no sound!

No appreciable light in ambient settings is different from no light. Spin a bicycle wheel slowly on a bright day with an attached dynamo - you won't see anything from the bulb. It's still generating light, just not enough to be visible to a human eye in the prevailing conditions.

For a preamp application, the valve wouldn't need to dazzle - it's not distorting in a guitar amp. I don't have access to the circuit diagrams, but I suspect, like the reviewer, that the tube is working gently.

PaulBrewer

squibs wrote: »

Spin a bicycle wheel slowly on a bright day with an attached dynamo

HUH?

Lights or no lights, does it sound any good!?

studiorat

The Valve is being used in a "starved plate" mode ie. being used at a lower voltage. The point here is the signal is "going thru" the valve, but only after the actual mic pre-amp stage. The pre amp is chip based then goes thru the valve acting as a low pass filter really. Much like my old Guytone valve distortion pedal, but you couldn't see the valve there cause it was in the pedal!!!

If the valve was being used for the actual pre-amp stage the voltage on it would be higher, therefore the thing would be hotter. The box in question uses the distortion caused by the bias curve of the valve as an effect, not a valve amp in mine and other's book.

Rumor has it that the quality of the effect can be improved too, by replacing with better quality 12AX's.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

The Valve is being used in a "starved plate" mode ie. being used at a lower voltage. The point here is the signal is "going thru" the valve, but only after the actual mic pre-amp stage. The pre amp is chip based then goes thru the valve acting as a low pass filter really. Much like my old Guytone valve distortion pedal, but you couldn't see the valve there cause it was in the pedal!!!

If the valve was being used for the actual pre-amp stage the voltage on it would be higher, therefore the thing would be hotter. The box in question uses the distortion caused by the bias curve of the valve as an effect, not a valve amp in mine and other's book.

Rumor has it that the quality of the effect can be improved too, by replacing with better quality 12AX's.

'Starved Plate'???? Yez are horrid geeky so yez are:cool:

studiorat

PaulBrewer wrote: »

'Starved Plate'???? Yez are horrid geeky so yez are:cool:

pot/kettle/black

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

pot/kettle/black

I prefer the late 60's pre CBS , black face, hand wired, Class A Kettles myself.

I wonder if Rupert Neve made a kettle would the tea taste better?

studiorat

squibs wrote: »

No appreciable light in ambient settings is different from no light. Spin a bicycle wheel slowly on a bright day with an attached dynamo - you won't see anything from the bulb. It's still generating light, just not enough to be visible to a human eye in the prevailing conditions.

For a preamp application, the valve wouldn't need to dazzle - it's not distorting in a guitar amp. I don't have access to the circuit diagrams, but I suspect, like the reviewer, that the tube is working gently.

The voltage on the plate for a valve mic pre would normally be in the region of 300V. Enough to make it glow. The plate voltage for a starved plate voltage set-up would be in the region of 50V, no glow!

jtsuited

studiorat wrote: »

If the valve was being used for the actual pre-amp stage the voltage on it would be higher, therefore the thing would be hotter. The box in question uses the distortion caused by the bias curve of the valve as an effect, not a valve amp in mine and other's book.

this is the crux of the matter really. it is not a valve amp by any stretch of the imagination. it is an amp that has a valve located in the same box as a built in effect.

i doubt that behringer are the only culprits when it comes to this type of thing. Let's all void warranties and open up everything we have!

squibs

Thanks for a proper technical explanation, studiorat.

squibs

HUH?

Lights or no lights, does it sound any good!?

Well, they say the squeaky wheel gets the oil...

booooonzo

Does anyone know is the SPL Gold Mike MK 1 use this design? I suspect it does. I think i read somewhere it only uses the valve for 6db of gain.

fitz

If shows the valves glowing through a little window, it's probably a bad sign.
Real valve pres are all about the understatement

PaulBrewer

booooonzo wrote: »

Does anyone know is the SPL Gold Mike MK 1 use this design? I suspect it does. I think i read somewhere it only uses the valve for 6db of gain.

Coincidentally I got offered the SPL brand today so will endeavour to find out!

booooonzo

True
I just read up about it there and it is a hybrid design. I actually knew that but never really thought much about it

SOS gave it a great review which is why i bought it at the time but ive since stopped buying that and reading their marketing reviews!

Time to ebay it i reckon!

Think a Soundelux or Telefunken and a great river or vintage design is on the cards

PaulBrewer

While the valve thing is of passing interest I don't care if the valve has a goldfish in it if the thing sounds good!

booooonzo

Good point Paul,
I dont really think the spl sounds bad as such just i have nothing "High end" to compare it to.
Im going on opinions and what i read really.
I hope to get as good a signal path as possible in to my daw for vocal mainly(so a new mic and mic pre maybe with ad).

What would be your recomendation for about 2k?

PaulBrewer

booooonzo wrote: »

Good point Paul,
I dont really think the spl sounds bad as such just i have nothing "High end" to compare it to.
Im going on opinions and what i read really.
I hope to get as good a signal path as possible in to my daw for vocal mainly(so a new mic and mic pre maybe with ad).

What would be your recomendation for about 2k?

Go on holiday?.........

No, I'll PM you!!

dav nagle

I am going Apogee Rosetta 200 into portico 5012 into 002, i hope this along with my vocal booth getting sound proofed makes a big difference!

PaulBrewer

Nice one Dav , you should hear big improvements straight away especially when you track stuff up.

You'll also find you'll do less EQing and should hear the effects of compression better too...

All in all a big step in the right direction, well done!

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Nice one Dav , you should hear big improvements straight away especially when you track stuff up.

You'll also find you'll do less EQing and should hear the effects of compression better too...

All in all a big step in the right direction, well done!

Cheers Paul,
Lets hope that Steve lets go of his Portico he sounds very attached to it..