Irish Poker, where do we stand?

Ollieboy

goodluck2me wrote: »

Thats like getting free clothes in shops because your a celebrity, and able to afford it.
If you have already won a few tournaments and got some big scores then you dont need the sponsors, whereas if you are young and good enough, noone will touch you until you ave proven yourself, by which time you wont need it.

TJ coultier, most successiful tourney player ever, never uses his own money to buy-in to tourneys, he as backers. This is the way a lot of top pro's spread the risks, by selling 50%. Very comman practice in the states

Goodluck2me

Ollieboy wrote: »

TJ coultier, most successiful tourney player ever, never uses his own money to buy-in to tourneys, he as backers. This is the way a lot of top pro's spread the risks, by selling 50%. Very comman practice in the states

Im saying that its funny how those in most need of it, dont get it, and those who dont, do.

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote: »

I disagree with this to a certain extent, I think its unfair to say that if you cant work your way up from .10/.25 to 5/10 you simply arent good enough, this simply isnt true. Its a matter of applying certain skill sets to new situations, like if someone who never played poker before was taught how to play 5/10 from the very beginning and was given very specific advice about how people 3 and 4-bet liberally, and how sqeezes etc are a big part of the game, they would struggle in a .10/.25 game where there is very little 4-betting light.
The point im trying to make is that if you have won the lotto for example, you have the opportunity to jump into bigger games, be a loser in them for a while, and maybe if you are good enough, learn how to adapt to the game and learn whilst playing it. this is opposed to streaming through the level constantly adaptign your game to each new level. I think you dont have to go through every level to be exceptional, but I doubt many bad players do it all the same.

this is just nonsense imo.

Ollieboy

dagunman wrote: »

I think Llyod is right. You can say Smurfit didnt start grinding .25/.50 but this post is about young Irish players. Of the 6 or so players I know playing 5/10 or above, all without exception started playing .25/.50 and ground there way up. I believe building a bank role is like building a house. If you put in the correct fondations it will stand up when tested. People who spin up a role are the same ppl who spin it down.
I find it ironic in away that I am posting on baords about this as I have long been of the opinion that boards is one of the elements which is holding back the development of a lot of players. Ppl come on here and say x is great and y is great, when in reality there prob v average players and barely breaking even.
In any case I started this thread to find out why we are'nt producing top players at the rate others are. My sponsorship thing was just to get the ball rolling but there are more reasons.
I have been lucky I have always had ppl around me to teach me and improve my game. Poker is a game where you feed off the ppl arond you. The more top players around the better we will all get.
This form seems spilt between ppl who are happy to except were just bad and thats it , and others who think were gods gift to poker.
There is a reason why we havnt had ppl in the mix for ept's this year and its not for our lack of our poker playing population.
After all there were 18 Irish ppl in EPT Dublin the only young person was chub.

I think we all agree that we would love to see more young people come through from Ireland, but nobody can explain why it an't happen, or maybe we over estimate how good we should be in the internation scene. But Ireland is 6 million v's 400 million in Europe and when you include the states etc, well maybe we do ok. Thats all I'm saying.

YULETIRED

hopefully more older players will come through...to hell with those young fellas.

dagunman

ollieboy that's horse **** you cant say if you dont have the role you shouldn't travel circut, there are so many winning players who wouldnt b playing the circut without backing. I doubt Roland for instance would be playing many events if he wasnt paid in. Joe there was no value in the EPT cause were just not at that skill level.

Mr.Plough

Cloutier doesn't use his own money for tournys because he busts it all at the craps table

Ollieboy

dagunman wrote: »

ollieboy that's horse **** you cant say if you dont have the role you shouldn't travel circut, there are so many winning players who wouldnt b playing the circut without backing. I doubt Roland for instance would be playing many events if he wasnt paid in. Joe there was no value in the EPT cause were just not at that skill level.

if you can't afford to play the circuit, than your not winning enough in the 1st place, of course there's alway the exception when a top player goes busto. But your not going to give the backing to a player that as never been to a major final table or even won something, if you win something today, your bankroll to play the circuit for a long time.

I never buy-in to any major event over 1.5k, as its just not worth it as the variance is to big, I think most players that do are mad or have great faith in there skill. But you can sat into most major events and if you can't get in by sat, than your usually not good enough to play these events. there is a big event every week, why buy-in when you can just wait your time and sat into the next one, some players are to eager to buy-in to all the major events and will go bust quick doing that. A lot of big name pro's this year only play certain events on the circuit due to the costs, backing these players is better value than backing somebody from Ireland thats won nothing or is promising.

bops

YULETIRED wrote: »

hopefully more older players will come through...to hell with those young fellas.

correct! (is 32 old??)

Ollieboy

Mr.Plough wrote: »

Cloutier doesn't use his own money for tournys because he busts it all at the craps table

thats not true, he's far from busts, he's a big crap player and likes the thrill, but he's still a very wealthy man. I was reading recently that he charge one person 15k for 1 days lessions. he admits to the problem with craps, but tries his best to control it.

But he did mention he's loss nearly 1 million playing craps....omg

MrPillowTalk

There are only about 20 Irish players I rate, Im not sure why better players arent developing quicker in Ireland, Im not sure sponsorship would do anything tbh.

I dont think half the guys who play the ept circuit can really afford to be there either, and the truth is if someone isnt winning regularly then calling them a talented player is just wrong really and a bit delusional and all part of the fantasy that seems to surround Irish poker.

I have no idea what the answers are, there is definately a big gain to be had by talking to players at a similar or higher level to yourself and learning together, that has happened with a couple of groups in the irish scene but could probably be a kit more widespread I suppose.

MrPillowTalk

Ollieboy wrote: »

thats not true, he's far from busts, he's a big crap player and likes the thrill, but he's still a very wealthy man. I was reading recently that he charge one person 15k for 1 days lessions. he admits to the problem with craps, but tries his best to control it.

But he did mention he's loss nearly 1 million playing craps....omg

I ran into TJ at the craps table in Vegas he was playing $25 a throw and was trying to borrow off everyone he knew.

Didnt strike me as a wealthy man.

RoundTower

Ollie,

because you are used to playing tournaments you probably judge people's poker ability by the amount of tourney cashes they have, or final tables, or tourneys won, or money won. In fact the main way to cash in a lot of tourneys is to play a lot of tourneys.

If I learn to be twice as good at tourneys and play the same amount, I will probably cash for about 25% more every year. If I play like I do now and play twice as many I will cash for 100% more. It's very simple that way.

So yes, starting off with a load of money and having a big roll helps you be successful in tournaments, by your definition. Equally well, being famous and getting on TV a bit can get you sponsored, so you play more tournaments, so you are more successful by that definition. However if you are a good player who doesn't play that many tourneys you will make more % profit, but cash for less, and not be famous.

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote: »

Ollie,

because you are used to playing tournaments you probably judge people's poker ability by the amount of tourney cashes they have, or final tables, or tourneys won, or money won. In fact the main way to cash in a lot of tourneys is to play a lot of tourneys.

If I learn to be twice as good at tourneys and play the same amount, I will probably cash for about 25% more every year. If I play like I do now and play twice as many I will cash for 100% more. It's very simple that way.

So yes, starting off with a load of money and having a big roll helps you be successful in tournaments, by your definition. Equally well, being famous and getting on TV a bit can get you sponsored, so you play more tournaments, so you are more successful by that definition. However if you are a good player who doesn't play that many tourneys you will make more % profit, but cash for less, and not be famous.

Agreed with your point, I personally rate people by there play and not cashes, anyone can be top of rankings if there playing a lot of tourneys etc and be a losing player. Also, tourneys aren't that hard to play, most of the skills involved can be easily pick up, but when you see a really good tourney player, you will know it.

Success at tourneys, does not make you a great player, it will mean your a very good player.

Example, Sorel is a really top tourney player, I hit a set of Q's against him at a event in the states, he fold Aq on a Q high flop. It was amazing laydown, he had me on a overpair and later he was supprised that I had a set, but he's a quality tourney player and as the bankroll to play at the top level. He's now back by a software house. This is the sort of player we need to see from Ireland and when he comes, I'm sure people like PPP will be willing to back him

Ollieboy

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

I ran into TJ at the craps table in Vegas he was playing $25 a throw and was trying to borrow off everyone he knew.

Didnt strike me as a wealthy man.

he usually only brings about 2.5k to the table, this is his way of controlling his problem, after that I'm sure he borrows when he's hook. In the piece I read he mention when he goes to Vegas he brings very little money as he scared he'll lose it at the craps table.

he also mention that he sometimes brings 20k....lol

He also spend over 1/2 million keeping his brother out of prison.

I dont know if he as money or not, but I hope for his stake he does. He's seems to be a real gent at the table and the beat he took against Jesus at the WSOP in 2000 at headsup, shows what a gent he his.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

THEIRISHMOB

Ollieboy wrote: »

firstly, your intentions are good, but you are so far of the mark that you can't even see it.

PPP owe nothing to Irish Poker, most of there business is the UK and to have a event like the Irish Open in this country is massive. Its rated as one of the biggest events to win outside WSOP, EPT and WPT. I reckon PPP spend closed to 1 million on the IO each year and thats a massive boast to the local poker community.

As for the performance of Irish players, well most of them have thereselves to blame.

In 2006 I was in Vegas for the WSOP Main Event. I watch nearly all the young Irish players been hook on video games, crap tables and the enjoyment that vegas as to offer. I dont think any of them took it serious, like eating fruit, staying of the beer, getting plenty of sleep. Most of them treat it like a holiday and thats fair enough, but you have a chance to change your life and your more interest in winning at video games. I'm not taking a swing at any of the lads, there all great players and know how to enjoy themselves, but poker is a business and you have to treat it like that. Rob Taylor is one of the few newer players to realise this and he works at his game in the correct manner and keeps his head down. He wants the fame and money and that will trive him on to success.

Now the performance of Irish players in relation to the international arena. Well our performances have been very good. Many Irish players have done well in the last few years. But remember the size of our country, 4 million. Were one off the smallest poker communities in the world and we achieve way above our level. You see 20 greeks, don't the greeks have 60 million odd population?

So there is only 10 players in Ireland beaten 5/10, I would reckon thats correct. But the community here is so small it makes it hard for these players to access the bigger lives games, hence they dont win big tourneys, but there very successiful players.

As I said, your intentions are right, but PPP or Boyles sponsor a Irish player is not a option, as the market place here is so small. Look at Germany recently, 3 new sign pro's by full-tilt, is this to increase the game or standard of game in Germany? No its about winning the market place in a massive growing and young market. Ireland doesn't have this.

Anyway, end of my rant.

I would love to see some new players coming through in Ireland, but outside about 20 players I know, few I feel have the game at the top level. I dont want to mention people, but a big score and running well in one tourney doesn't make you a successiful player, it takes years of work and continue success. But if you have the bankroll you can gain the learning curve, but very few Irish players have the funds.

intereting to hear other peoples fews.

I think this is a big factor with the development of new players in this country..go to any poker festival and what do you find....guys on the piss..!!!

If you want to suceed at anything to a high level you have to treat it professionally. How many guys do you ever see in this country young or old taking it serious. eating well, excersing, getting enough sleep, trying to learn rather than playing music to pass the time. and we wonder where we go wrong...!!

nicnicnic

most of the best players in the world have serious coke habits, it is almost impossible to get quality coke in ireland, to compeat at the highest level young irish players should move to south america or miami

bohsman

Ollieboy wrote: »

he usually only brings about 2.5k to the table, this is his way of controlling his problem, after that I'm sure he borrows when he's hook. In the piece I read he mention when he goes to Vegas he brings very little money as he scared he'll lose it at the craps table.

he also mention that he sometimes brings 20k....lol

He also spend over 1/2 million keeping his brother out of prison.

I dont know if he as money or not, but I hope for his stake he does. He's seems to be a real gent at the table and the beat he took against Jesus at the WSOP in 2000 at headsup, shows what a gent he his.

Hes not allowed collect his tourney winnings from the cage on his own, he has to get one of his backers to go with him.

THEIRISHMOB

nicnicnic wrote: »

most of the best players in the world have serious coke habits, it is almost impossible to get quality coke in ireland, to compeat at the highest level young irish players should move to south america or miami

what?
I was in superquinn today and they have all the Coke you want out there.
your shopping in Lidl way too much.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

wow. I've never, ever seen an Irish player do that.

Lol, I was sooo close to falling for this.

You must have been playing pretty rocklike though Ollie. I think if you cant get paid in that situation you are playing too tight imo.

valor

nicnicnic wrote: »

most of the best players in the world have serious coke habits, it is almost impossible to get quality coke in ireland, to compeat at the highest level young irish players should move to south america or miami

I'm moving to Argentina so...

nicnicnic

valor wrote: »

I'm moving to Argentina so...

wow exactly the initiative needed, I can see the headlines now " Valor takes down WPT championship but is unavailable for interviews atm due to nose restructuring plastic surgery "

Flipper

Great thread John. IMO, there's no young player in Ireland that is marketable enough for anyone like stars or Full Tilt to even consider taking them on board. I do agree that there are a few that might be bordering on deserving it and I agree with what Eoin said about rating around 20 players in Ireland. The eternal problem in poker is and will always be that everyone ranks themselves in the top 5%. The fact of the matter is that most players on here can't even beat what are without doubt, some of the softest live cash games in the whole world. Many of the posters on Boards are whiners, complainers and gossipers and these are the very people that have in their own very special way, hampered the growth of poker in Ireland.

All this said, I really do hope that a few players get picked up by a site and start putting Ireland on the Poker-map. I'm delighted for Marty finally getting the deal he deserved... Not half soon enough.

58o

Iago wrote: »

Excellent post, and I've commented on some of it before, specifically around the whole vegas WSOP piece. Every year our best and brighest get together over a couple of threads and plan what they're going to do in Vegas and every year you hear tales of all-night parties, various crazy betting and lots of pics and jokes about semi-naked women! All of which sounds like a fantastic holiday, but very few of the players who go over are prepared to work while there.

.

QFT. If only our young hopes at The WSOP, would go on a rigorous, spartan physical excercise regime, the bracelets would start flowing in. Sure thats the the little known secret behind Greg raymers success in 2004. Its all making sense now.

corkie123

Ollieboy wrote: »

again, PPP dont make any money from the rake, that goes to the casino which is not PPP from what I understand. The running cost at the irish open is massive and I doubt there is a profit with the rake from cash games. But I did feel the 300 rake on the main event was high, in relation to the food that was on offer for the players, the typical chicken sauce dish with rice etc.

There shops are aim at a different market so I dont know what that as to do with Poker. They make money from players on rake for providing a service, if you dont like the charge go else where and pay less or get a better service, but PPP are a business.

I would love to see PPP sponsor a player, but I would rather see them hold good buy-in events like the Irish Open and the Winter festival this year than give my rake or there profit to a wantbee

This is turning into a typical PPP bashing which is very unfair to PPP.

u remind me of the devil fish with that responce he told the ept guys back in 2005 that if they dont increase the buyins he wont play no more because of all the bad players who could afford the 1500 buy in then . now its gone up to 8k only 221 players played this year and we are going to lose it here next year because of it ,people cant afford these buyins all the time anymore and if ppp increase there buyin next year they be having to add more money to the tourie.

now im not bashing ppp here as u said but they have to really look at this more . the wsop people have not increased there buyin since the start but increased the amount of players they cater for and made the wsop the best tourie and biggest. food for thought there

as for there shops people use them to lodge money and i say place bets when they there .so its double for them .

myself i would perfer a good buyin events run by them at a more reasonable price so loads more players could afford to play and turn the irish open into the biggest event like the wsop main event . same price just more players

corkie123

bops wrote: »

correct! (is 32 old??)

yes but u need to be bald as well

nicnicnic

were sh!t at soccer to

NickyOD

If you take the overall number of consistent winners worldwide at 5-10+ online and take Ireland's population into account then I don't think we are too far off our fair share and it's BS that there are only around 10 players. There are a lot of online winners who just like to keep to themselves and I know several.

The majority of Irish players who do play 5-10 and above regularly are probably winners. Compare that to the French, Italian, German and Eastern Europeans who are usually the "value" at theses takes.

Who gives a toss what people at the EPT in San Remo say anyway. Most of the donks at every EPT are completely useless in cash games. I watched a 5/10 game in Prague and would have sold my clothes and played in the nip if it would have gotten me into the game, the standard was just so terrible.

corkie123

Flipper wrote: »

Great thread John. IMO, there's no young player in Ireland that is marketable enough for anyone like stars or Full Tilt to even consider taking them on board. I do agree that there are a few that might be bordering on deserving it and I agree with what Eoin said about rating around 20 players in Ireland. The eternal problem in poker is and will always be that everyone ranks themselves in the top 5%. The fact of the matter is that most players on here can't even beat what are without doubt, some of the softest live cash games in the whole world. Many of the posters on Boards are whiners, complainers and gossipers and these are the very people that have in their own very special way, hampered the growth of poker in Ireland.

All this said, I really do hope that a few players get picked up by a site and start putting Ireland on the Poker-map. I'm delighted for Marty finally getting the deal he deserved... Not half soon enough.

i had to read this twice and still thought someone else wrote this than flipper but if it really is u flipper than maybe u have seen the light congrats .
u might yet turn out to be a nice guy .

question where do u place yourself top 5%? 10%? 25% ?

im down at the bottom half but happy there before u ask :)