MMA and Boxing

sligobhoy67

Am I right to hate MMA - its a close relation to our beloved sport but I cant warm to it - maybe its because its stolen some of the limelight of boxing, maybe its the grapping, maybe it the WWE style promotion, maybe its because MMA seems to be filled with guys that couldnt hack it as boxiers, maybe its the use of feet or the elbowing in the face until the other guy is lifeless.

Anyone the same?

ryoishin

MMA is safer than boxing. And while it may appear sometimes to be brutal there is so much athletisim involved with a high skill level needed.

I agree that alot of mma fighters would nt be top level boxers but its also true that alot of boxers would nt be top level mma fighters. Its just a case of how much time your willing to put in either sport.

In regards to the promoting of fights. Its way better in mma. Fans get to see all the stats as well as reach and interviews on a screen in the venue, well in some mma fights. Also theres big name fights more frequently. Im not putting down boxing but i think mma should be on a par with boxing in regards to repect and apprieciation of skill.

cowzerp

Your wrong to hate it- you dont have to like it but why would you hate it?
its a combat sport that takes serious skill and guts just like boxing-im doing mma now and love it, boxing is my 1st love but mma is now my 2nd.

if your looking for boxing in mma then you might think its bad but remmber there is more aspects, boxing, elbow's, knee's kicking then grappling, very technical and can be exciting too but boring if ya dont know whats happening in my opinion.

i believe mma has improved boxing the last couple of years, boxing is booming at the moment and i think the competition has helped this, plus boxing in the earliest form was actually like mma, wrestling and boxing where together in the olympics called boxing!!!

sligobhoy67

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

Am I right to hate MMA - its a close relation to our beloved sport but I cant warm to it - maybe its because its stolen some of the limelight of boxing, maybe its the grapping, maybe it the WWE style promotion, maybe its because MMA seems to be filled with guys that couldnt hack it as boxiers, maybe its the use of feet or the elbowing in the face until the other guy is lifeless.

Anyone the same?

Wow.

First, most boxers, I say most not all, couldnt hack it in MMA, they get taken down and tapped out in no time at all. This argument is silly, they are 2 different sports. If u start bobbing and weaving too much in MMA u will eat a kick or a knee. If u stand in the stance that MMA fighters stand in in a boxing match u will eat body shots. If u stand in a boxing stance in MMA u will have the 7 shades of ****e kicked out of your legs and/or get taken down quickly. They are 2 different sports with different technical skills required to excel in them, why do u hate it, because its not boxing? Because it has other elements to it that boxing doesnt? the flip side I never see is traditional grappling fans never seem to have a problem with MMA, the only real fans of other combat sports who hate MMA seem to be boxing fans. It bothers me.


Secondly, whats wrong with use of the feet or elbowing? Legitimate weapons and just as legit as fists. Because boxing has been the main combat sport for so long some people fall into the "real men box" mindset and think its wimpy to use anything else. Which is bull. Muay-Thai is a great art and has been around for centuries and there are no wimps doing that art. If u have ever been to a lie Muay-Thai fight, the punishment they take is unbelievable, and they cant hang out in the clinch for a break either, its truly gruelling.


Lastly, until the other guy is lifeless? So a guy gets dropped, hes out, in a real fight do u stand back and let him get up and count to ten? No. U would follow him down and finish him either through a submission hold or through verbal submission from punches. If he is out and cant submit the ref stops it. It more dangerous in terms of head trauma to let a guy get repeatedly dropped and stood up again.

I love boxing by the way, a fan of the sport, albeit i dont follow it as closely as I follow MMA but a fan nonetheless and I admire the technical nature of it because its a very intricate science but I hate the way some boxing fans look down on MMA as inferior ignoring the MASSIVE amount of skill required to be even average at wrestling/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu/Muay Thai/judo etc and forgetting that these guys have to master several of these arts to be effective, its flat out disrespectful. I dont look down on one or the other, theyre different sports. Theyre in the same family but theyre not the same. MMA guys would get murdered in a boxing match and the same goes for the other way around. Im a bigger fan of MMA seeing as I train Brazilian JiuJitsu and Muay-Thai but I appreciate boxing just as equally.


EDIT: As for the WWE style promotion, I dont see that at all....maybe cos Brock Lesnar is in MMA now u say that but u clearly dont follow MMA if u think they have WWE like promotion. UFC has gone out of its way to be NOT like WWE, getting rid of the stages etc etc. the rest of it is just promotion, just like boxing, its part of the game.

ryoishin

One other thing is as Bas Rutten says, that in mma you have 3 olympic sports wrestling + judo, boxing and kicks as in tae kwon do (used for olympic anology).

cowzerp

Deleted User wrote: »

First, most boxers, I say most not all, couldnt hack it in MMA, they get taken down and tapped out in no time at all. This argument is silly, they are 2 different sports. If u start bobbing and weaving too much in MMA u will eat a kick or a knee.

Neill while i agree with a lot of what your saying, bobbing and weaving done proper is very small movements and would certainly not get you a knee in the head or anymore likely to get a kick, a static fighter will get hit easier-this is because you dont understand bobbing and weaving! your head does not drop down, its more small circular motions, i fight mma and still bob and weave!!

Deleted User wrote: »

If u stand in the stance that MMA fighters stand in in a boxing match u will eat body shots. If u stand in a boxing stance in MMA u will have the 7 shades of ****e kicked out of your legs and/or get taken down quickly.

Another load of craap! put on mma now and look at the stances, seriously, there almost all in a boxing stance, this is a myth that people bought into-i know a boxing stance and a thai stance, and boxing is the 1 of choice in mma because its all about movement, this myth must go as its false, if you dont agree could you tell me what stance they use?? a thai boxing stance would have you taking down easily!

Judomad

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

MMA seems to be filled with guys that couldnt hack it as boxiers

in irish terms do you not think paul cowzer could hack being a boxer, he now does MMA but clearly could hack being a boxer...i definitely think losing to Frankie Gavin by split decision only 3 or 4 years ago is a serious accomplishment so that statement u made is bull in my opinion

cowzerp wrote: »

boxing is my 1st love but mma is now my 2nd.

i doubt Gill would be happy to read that

cowzerp

cowzerp wrote: »

Neill while i agree with a lot of what your saying, bobbing and weaving done proper is very small movements and would certainly not get you a knee in the head or anymore likely to get a kick, a static fighter will get hit easier-this is because you dont understand bobbing and weaving! your head does not drop down, its more small circular motions, i fight mma and still bob and weave!!

Sorry i should clear this up. Im talkin about the exaggerated bobbing and weaving where the guy effectively bends his entire upperbody to be parrallell to the ground and then sways around to dodge hooks, do ya get me? Its effective when done right but for me if u watch boxing and the way the weave and put them in an MMA rules fight they cannot do that, they will leave themselves open every second time they do it to eat a knee/kick or get put in the Thai clinch. However if u train to bob and weave and also be aware of kicks/knees then u will do it more sensibly and its very effective. I was talking from the point of view of the way boxers ,specifically, bob and weave.

Its effective BUT if u rely too much on it and not on slipping/blocking then ur gonna weave right into a knee/kick sooner or later....Babalu vs Chuck for example.

cowzerp wrote:

Another load of craap! put on mma now and look at the stances, seriously, there almost all in a boxing stance, this is a myth that people bought into-i know a boxing stance and a thai stance, and boxing is the 1 of choice in mma because its all about movement, this myth must go as its false, if you dont agree could you tell me what stance they use?? a thai boxing stance would have you taking down easily!

Load of crap? Thanks.

We've actually had this debate before over in the self defence forum, its a modified stance to encompass a wrestling base and kicks. Its very similar to boxing in the foot positioning but the upper body is more squared off and thats where the main difference is. The boxing stance that I see involves standing with only the side of your torso facing your opponent so as to minimise the target for your opponent. look at pretty Boy Floyd and his shoulder roll defence. in boxing that is hugely effective but for MMA its utter rubbish against an opponent who wants u on the mat. now i do realise in MMA there are numerous different stances, fior example Chuck Liddells (horrible) stance which is designed to sprawl and effectively land punches is different to that of BJ Penn/Randy Couture who stay lowered so that they can shoot at any time off their punches. depends really on your gameplan being sprawl and brawl or punch and shoot.

cowzerp

Judomad wrote: »

i doubt Jill would be happy to read that

Very funny Gaz, i meant in a sporting context!

Liverpool fc is my 1st love watching, taking part its the other 2!!

outside of that i love lots of stuff!

megadodge

As a long-term boxing fan I always find it amazing how a lot of other like-minded individuals seem to have a grudge against MMA. I really like it ! Not quite as much as boxing but, in the same way that I'll enjoy a fight between two semi-skilled sluggers just as much as two world class slicksters, I just enjoy two evenly matched combatants beating the sh!te out of each other !!

I feel the advent of the very well-promoted UFC has actually been a blessing in disguise for boxing. With the ever-increasing popularity of UFC, K1 etc. boxing promoters began to get worried. Because of the competition they were forced to look at themselves and figure out how to counteract. It was quite simple really - get the best to fight each other !! And for the last two years they have and then some !! I can't remember when there were so many good matchups in boxing and it seems to be continuing thankfully.

From a technical point of view I appreciate the excellent wrestling/ju-jitsu skills. They're not quite as spectacular as the strikes but they take a lot of time and training to master.

However, it's the standard of striking (particularly punching) that I think causes the disdain from boxing fans and to be brutally honest the general standard is pretty poor (and that's being generous). Chuck Lidell is regarded as the best striker (puncher) in UFC, but IMO he's just a straight-forward slugger who would struggle to land a single punch on a decent boxer and yet he is one of the very top exponents in MMA. Imagine what a seriously skilled boxer could do !

Anyway, I think both can exist side-by-side and I'll continue to enjoy both.

dlofnep

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

Am I right to hate MMA - its a close relation to our beloved sport but I cant warm to it - maybe its because its stolen some of the limelight of boxing, maybe its the grapping, maybe it the WWE style promotion, maybe its because MMA seems to be filled with guys that couldnt hack it as boxiers, maybe its the use of feet or the elbowing in the face until the other guy is lifeless.

Anyone the same?

1) UFC hasn't had "WWE" style promotion for years. They got rid of the ramp and such a few years back and revamped the production. If anything, today's boxing has more WWE-like promotion. Mayweather-Hatton, hello?

2) Maybe you don't understand the grappling aspect of MMA. Or maybe you find it boring. That's your prerogative.

3) Is respect to "couldn't hack it as boxers". The majority of guys in MMA started from a grappling background and never aspired to be boxers. World class wrestlers like Matt Lindland win a silver medal in the olympics but then have no avenue to make money from it on a professional stage. or at least they wouldn't have unless MMA was alive. MMA gives people like world class judokas, bjj players and wrestlers the opportunity to make a professional living from fighting competitively, where it wasn't possible beforehand. The truth of the matter is, someone like a 155lb Frankie Edgar could probably put someone like the likes of a David Haye on their back and beat the pulp out of them, and that scares you. It scares you that boxers are mortal and that their skillset is based on one range, opposed to three. I think getting passed that is your problem.

Your analysis of MMA is very misinformed. As a far of boxing and MMA, I have no problems in appreciating the differences of both sports.

pacman murphy

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

Am I right to hate MMA - its a close relation to our beloved sport but I cant warm to it - maybe its because its stolen some of the limelight of boxing, maybe its the grapping, maybe it the WWE style promotion, maybe its because MMA seems to be filled with guys that couldnt hack it as boxiers, maybe its the use of feet or the elbowing in the face until the other guy is lifeless.

Anyone the same?

I ****ing hate MMA or UFC it's basically streetfighting for thugs.

cowzerp

pacman murphy wrote: »

I ****ing hate MMA or UFC it's basically streetfighting for thugs.

Your an idiot, i box and love it more than anything and do mma now as i wanted to broaden my horizons, its very controlled and very skillful-streetfighting is untrained scummers who just fight to hurt people and not to try out there well earned skills on like minded people, basically boxing with different skills.

dlofnep

pacman murphy wrote: »

I ****ing hate MMA or UFC it's basically streetfighting for thugs.

Thugs like former highschool teacher Rich Franklin? Or olympic gold medalists?

You're absolutely ignorant. It's not street fighting. There is no skill involved in street fighting. MMA require YEARS of wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and striking. Go to any MMA gym and you'll be in for a humbling experience.

Yeah, this is real street fighting! :rolleyes:

megadodge

The truth of the matter is, someone like a 155lb Frankie Edgar could probably put someone like the likes of a David Haye on their back and beat the pulp out of them,

This is the sort of comment that is the equivalent to boxing fans' "streetfighting" comment on MMA.

Why do you think that Edgar would have no problems getting past the very quick, accurate and powerful punches of Haye in the first place ? One (and I mean only ONE) punch from Haye would have virtually anybody of 155lbs in dreamland. Takedowns have to be done from in close and kicking the legs leaves even the best exponents vulnerable for the split second it takes to land a punch.

IF (and that's a big IF) he got Haye on his back then it's a formality, but I'm guessing he'd never get that far.

dlofnep

megadodge wrote: »

This is the sort of comment that is the equivalent to boxing fans' "streetfighting" comment on MMA.

Why do you think that Edgar would have no problems getting past the very quick, accurate and powerful punches of Haye in the first place ? One (and I mean only ONE) punch from Haye would have virtually anybody of 155lbs in dreamland. Takedowns have to be done from in close and kicking the legs leaves even the best exponents vulnerable for the split second it takes to land a punch.

IF (and that's a big IF) he got Haye on his back then it's a formality, but I'm guessing he'd never get that far.

Frankie Edgar is a Div I wrestler and probably puts 250lb WRESTLERS on their back. You don't "shoot" from in close, you do it from OUTSIDE the jab range. If you even believe for one split second that David haye would have a hope in hell of stopping Frankie's shot, then your absolutely 100% uneducated about the dynamics of grappling.

So no, it's not the equiv of boxing fans calling MMA streetfighting. It's an accurate analysis of what would happen when a smaller, skilled division 1 wrestler takes on a larger boxer. Don't believe me? See what a natural 205 boxer in Jeremy Williams does to former world champ, Lennox Lewis in sparring. Tosses him from left to right. And Jeremy isn't even a wrestler, let alone a wrestler in the caliber of Edgar.

Fact of the matter is this. Edgar puts Haye on his back and kills him in 60 seconds. I would bet my entire life savings on it. Accept the reality that boxing and MMA are two different sports and that without a very solid sprawl (ie: 5 - 6 years of solid wrestling) - a boxer does not stand a chance in MMA. And I am a huge fan of boxing.

cowzerp

dlofnep wrote: »

Fact of the matter is this. Edgar puts Haye on his back and kills him in 60 seconds. I would bet my entire life savings on it. Accept the reality that boxing and MMA are two different sports

John i dont think your right at all, haye would not be doing a wrestling match with him, he'd be striking him and trying to stop takedowns, if he caught him its lights out and even if it went to ground would hurt him with ground punches from his back or from mount-the 1 thing boxers have going for them is footwork that is lacking in most martial arts, meaning there not that easy to take down with a shoot from distance, easiest getting in grappling range and working a takedown, risking getting hit!

penfold wrote:

without a very solid sprawl (ie: 5 - 6 years of solid wrestling) - a boxer does not stand a chance in MMA. And I am a huge fan of boxing.

True to an extent, 5-6 years is a bit over the top, more like 6 months takedown training to be efficent, but the same can be said for all the individual arts, wrestlers train boxing, BJJ players and judoka do too,if any of these just trained there own art they would be in trouble in MMA, MMA is at a stage where all the competitors need to be well rounded, and boxing is probably the most dangerous of all the arts so added to a grappling art it becomes perfect for mma. End of,.:cool:

megadodge

Fact of the matter is this. Edgar puts Haye on his back and kills him in 60 seconds. I would bet my entire life savings on it.

Firstly, it is NOT a fact, it is your opinion !

Secondly, I hope for your sake you don't have much in your bank a/c.

Thirdly, and this is the crux of the issue, are you assuming that Haye would just stand there and let Edgar take him down ???? He wouldn't use the excellent footwork he has or he wouldn't punch at the oncoming target ????
Why is a fairly crude brawler like Chuck Lidell able to compete at the highest level and be renowned for his striking ???
Surely using your logic he would be taken down easily every time and all his fights become wrestling matches ???

The mind boggles at that sort of simplistic thinking !!

And as I said I'm a fan of MMA too.

Vince135792003

Deleted User wrote: »

EDIT: As for the WWE style promotion, I dont see that at all....maybe cos Brock Lesnar is in MMA now u say that but u clearly dont follow MMA if u think they have WWE like promotion. UFC has gone out of its way to be NOT like WWE, getting rid of the stages etc etc. the rest of it is just promotion, just like boxing, its part of the game.

All combat sports be they real or entertainment follow and should follow similar promotion techniques because at the end of day ....they are all promoting fights be they MMA, boxing or pro-wrestling and they want to make money.


All 3 (boxing, pro-wrestling and MMA) learn from each other about promoting big money fights.

I could write an essay on the subtle little things UFC did with Brock Lesnar's debut and how it was similar to wrestling angles that I have watched in the past.

The same with De La Hoya/Mayweather. It reminded me so much of Flair/Steamboat.

There fight last May didn't sell 2 million plus ppv buys because they were simply brilliant boxers (and they are). It was because people got into the story which made them care about the 2 people involved to the point that they were willing to pay for the conclusion.

megadodge

megadodge wrote: »

Why is a fairly crude brawler like Chuck Lidell able to compete at the highest level and be renowned for his striking ???

first of all this is misguided.


Chuck Liddell is successful in MMA for 3 main reasons:

1) He's a Division 1 All American Wrestler who is very hard to take down and very very hard to keep down

2) He is an unorthodox striker with serious natural KO power which when combined with 4oz gloves means that if he hits u its lights out. He also throws strikes from unusual angles that a lot of guys are not used to and with the smaller gloves it means that it breaks through their defence whereas it would not with 16oz gloves on.

3) He has a great chin which has in the past made up for his sloppy style as guys would hit him a lot and he'd stay up only to finally land a big punch and get the KO...see his fight with Allistair Overeem for example.


Because there are more styles of fighter to contend with in MMA this allows him to be successful against certain types of fighter and because the UFC's 205lb division was stacked full of wrestlers it was perfectly set up for him to be top of the heap.

- He is at his best when fighting grapplers who are trying to take him down. His kryptonite is other strikers...see his fights with Rampage Jackson as an example. Rampage is trained by Juanito Ibarra and has very solid boxing fundamentals to go on top of his strong wrestling base, which is the main point here, boxing is a very very effective art but not on its own, it needs to be cross trained with wrestling and submission principals or you're a dead duck. Anyone who thinks that a top level pure wrestler wouldnt take down a top level pure striker is kidding themselves. If u have no knowledge of what to do then the guy can shoot from miles outside and just ankle pick u, if u have ever had this happen to u with no knowledge of the principles of takedown defence u would be astonished at how easily a mall guy will take u down. Used to happen to me in the first while of me training Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the guys taking me down werent exactly division 1 or olympic wrestlers. I was literally being taken down by dudes who were 30-40kgs lighter than me becasue i had no idea what to do to stop myself being tripped.



MMA fans would tell you themselves that Chuck Liddell is nto a great etchhnical striker but he's very effective against certain types of opponents. Now Anderson Silva/ Takanori Gomi/ Dunae Ludwig/ Mirko "Crocop" Filipovic etc are examples of strikers who are effective in MMA (or in Ludwigs case...somewhat effective) and all of these guys are excellent strikers who have CROSSTRAINED grappling. When Crocop first started in MMA he got taken down at will. He learned wrestlign and became better able to avoid the takedown.


Anderson Silva has superb footwork and for years he was taken down at will and would have been destroyed if he was not an excellent practicioner of Brazilian jiu Jitsu. Lately he is harder to takedown because he has spent months training in US wrestling camps so that his elusive footwork combined with his knowledge of defending takedowns using leverage and underhooks mean he is not harder to takedown. If you think thast footwork alone will stop a takedown you are truly foolish.

walshb

As a fan of boxing for many years now, I do not believe there is any single sport that is as tough and skilled and intricate as boxing. MMA is a mix of many diferent arts and to say a boxer can't hack it in MMA is silly. MMA is a jack of all trades. A boxer is a master of one trade, and if a boxer decided to devote himself full time to MMA, then yes, he/she could do very well. Remember, the MMA participants are not masters of all arts, they usually have a backround in one art and then learn the skills of others. So this applies to a boxer too, he/she is a master of boxing and then can become skilled in others. I do think boxing though is far more skilled and I don't get bored as easy from watching it. The next thing to boxing is pure Muay Thai....

Money Shot

walshb wrote: »

As a fan of boxing for many years now, I do not believe there is any single sport that is as tough and skilled and intricate as boxing and I don't get bored as easy from watching it.

QFT

I find MMA incredibly boring to watch - it's all grappling, and a bit too Ken Russell for me. It's also presented more like wrestling, which adds to the annoyance factor.

Boxing is an incredible sport for so many reasons, and the athletes that participate at the highest level are incredible in terms of skill and fitness. Anyone from a boxing background doing MMA would have failed at boxing, so moved into this crap to earn a few bob.

I hate MMA for a lot of reasons. Most of the fans seem to be immunised wrestling fans looking for a bit of hardcore. Boxing fans are generally very knowledgeable about their sport, it's history and it's current problems. Anyway, MMA is not for me and never will be.

Money Shot

Money Shot wrote: »

QFT

I find MMA incredibly boring to watch - it's all grappling, and a bit too Ken Russell for me. It's also presented more like wrestling, which adds to the annoyance factor.

Boxing is an incredible sport for so many reasons, and the athletes that participate at the highest level are incredible in terms of skill and fitness. Anyone from a boxing background doing MMA would have failed at boxing, so moved into this crap to earn a few bob.

I hate MMA for a lot of reasons. Most of the fans seem to be immunised wrestling fans looking for a bit of hardcore. Boxing fans are generally very knowledgeable about their sport, it's history and it's current problems. Anyway, MMA is not for me and never will be.

Im sorry but thats hilarious. Most fans of ANY sport are knowledgable. Your post stinks of ignorance about MMA. i dont know anything about Nascar so i dont make generalisations about Nascar. How do u know MMA fans arent knowledgeable, my bet is u have never ever been to an MMA event so how would u know? Keep your points legitimate at least. U dont like MMA, thats cool, but to say something like that is insulting, look at this thread:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055100040 and see how 90% of the people who are posting there alone know their stuff about MMA.


As for your point on the fitness, its subjective. Boxers are unbelievable fit. So are rugby players. So are footballers. So are MMA fighters. If u put an MMA fighter into a boxing ring for 12 rounds he'll get tired because grappling fitness isnt the same as striking fitness. Put a soccer player on a rugby pitch and the anaerobic endurance required would drain him quickly. Same for any sport to be honest. Id honestly like to see you go to any MMA or BJJ gym in Ireland and make it to the end of a proper conditioning class and tell the coach that it was a piece of piss with a straight face. Lots of boxers, kickboxers and Thai fighters come in and out of our gyms as well as people from other sports, all highly fit people and Ive never seen anyone call it easy. I would never say that about a boxing class because Ive been to boxing classes and experienced how tough it is first hand so I know its hard. You are just assuming that its easy without having done it through sheer closed mindedness. the athletes at the highest level of most sports (I exclude golf/datrs and snooker from this list!!) are incredible athletes. look at randy couture, georges St Pierre, Matt Lindland, even guys like BJ Penn who have incredible flexibility sghould get mentioned despte his lack of a a gas tank at times.

Grappling is very very technical and when u put two technically amazing grapplers against each other its either A) spectacular or horrendous, same as boxing really. Ive watched some amazing boxing matches and Ive watched some awful ones.

And finally your point about boxing rejects in MMA is laughable. Name me one boxing reject who is anywhere near the top of the MMA ladder?

I accept that there are some piss poor strikers in MMA but when u have guys are are good at at least 2 of the other elements (clinch, takedowns, submissions) they are still able to hold their own against guys who are better than them at other facets of a fight. Im not saying MMA guys are better boxers but I am baffled at how u dont appreciate the skill that is involved in the other areas of a fight beside throwing hands.

dlofnep

cowzerp wrote: »

John i dont think your right at all, haye would not be doing a wrestling match with him, he'd be striking him and trying to stop takedowns

Paul, how would Haye be able to stop the takedowns? Unless he's trained extensively in wrestling, then it would be a major problem. I take down 300lb men in judo, I'm sure Frankie could take down Haye. We're talking now, as it stands, and not a year down the line if Haye had been training extensively in sprawl and brawl training.

I agree that Haye could catch him with a punch, but I don't think he would. I think Frankie would be in on a very low single before Haye could blink and he wouldn't have to ground and pound him out - He would submit him, unless Haye has any ground training. Come on, how many big men have you submitted with ease because of their lack of submission training?

Which is why I think Frankie beats him, comfortably at the moment as it stands.

megadodge wrote: »

Thirdly, and this is the crux of the issue, are you assuming that Haye would just stand there and let Edgar take him down ???? He wouldn't use the excellent footwork he has or he wouldn't punch at the oncoming target ????

That's boxing footwork, not wrestling footwork. And how would he stop him? Without training with a wrestling camp, he wouldn't know how. that's the reality of the matter.

megadodge wrote: »

Why is a fairly crude brawler like Chuck Lidell able to compete at the highest level and be renowned for his striking ???
Surely using your logic he would be taken down easily every time and all his fights become wrestling matches ???

Chuck wrestled extensively in college, that is why he can keep it standing. If Chuck fought a good striker, he would put them on their back. That's what MMA is all about. Couture had problems taking Chuck down and Couture is a world class wrestler.

megadodge wrote: »

The mind boggles at that sort of simplistic thinking !!

Your mind must be boggled beyond repair then, because your analysis on Chuck is about as simple-thinking as it comes. If you think he's just a "crude brawler", then you're not really the MMA fan you claim to be. He's trained with John Lewis for years, a solid BJJ black belt. He's been kickboxing for years, and wrestled most of his life.

dlofnep

walshb wrote: »

As a fan of boxing for many years now, I do not believe there is any single sport that is as tough and skilled and intricate as boxing. MMA is a mix of many diferent arts and to say a boxer can't hack it in MMA is silly. MMA is a jack of all trades. A boxer is a master of one trade, and if a boxer decided to devote himself full time to MMA, then yes, he/she could do very well. Remember, the MMA participants are not masters of all arts, they usually have a backround in one art and then learn the skills of others. So this applies to a boxer too, he/she is a master of boxing and then can become skilled in others. I do think boxing though is far more skilled and I don't get bored as easy from watching it. The next thing to boxing is pure Muay Thai....

That goes without saying. Everyone starts somewhere. If a young boxer (in his 20's) stepped out of it and trained a few years in MMA, he would become a very tough guy to deal with. I guess Jeremy Williams is the sort of benchmark we're looking at and when he fights a decent MMA fighter, we'll see.

However, I think the modern MMA fighter begins training MMA. GSP is a good example of this. But within the next few years, you'll start seeing guys who started in MMA gyms rfrom the age of 7 or 8.. Their skillset at 20 will be very hard to deal with. Solid wrestling, solid boxing, solid muay thai, solid jiu-jitsu. Not alot of people are very good in all areas, but they soon will be. You have to understand that modern MMA is only a few years old and is still maturing.

dlofnep

Money Shot wrote: »

QFT

I find MMA incredibly boring to watch - it's all grappling, and a bit too Ken Russell for me. It's also presented more like wrestling, which adds to the annoyance factor.

No, it's not presented like wrestling. It's comparable with boxing. Infact, look at my previous example of Mayweather/Hatton. That was much more of a circus than any recent MMA event.

Money Shot wrote: »

Boxing is an incredible sport for so many reasons, and the athletes that participate at the highest level are incredible in terms of skill and fitness.

And MMArtists are not? I seriously think you need to go to an MMA gym, just once to see how intense the training is.

Money Shot wrote: »

Anyone from a boxing background doing MMA would have failed at boxing, so moved into this crap to earn a few bob.

Firstly, it's not crap. Secondly, boxing just happens to have more money in it at the moment, so if some boxer goes to MMA, it's because he couldn't earn money in boxing, whether it be due to a few losses (ala Jeremy Williams) or maybe he's a southpaw and finding it hard to get fights. When you keep labeling MMA crap, you're further enhancing your ignorant image.

Money Shot wrote: »

Most of the fans seem to be immunised wrestling fans looking for a bit of hardcore. Boxing fans are generally very knowledgeable about their sport, it's history and it's current problems.

Modern MMA is 15 years old. I've been a fan of MMA for over a decade and know pretty much everything there is to know about the sport. I also have followed boxing for years and consider myself clued up on the scene and it's history more than the average fan.

I think you'll find MMA fans, active fans. Alot of fans of the sport actually go to local MMA gyms and train, get amateur fights - just so they can better understand it.. There are an influx of idiots due to the popularity of MMA as of late, but the same can be said for boxing. It's popularity is blowing back up in the last year and you have alot of new fans to that too who don't understand the intricacies of boxing.

I think your logic is very one sided. I can make statements about both sports because I've trained both (albeit boxing for only a few months as a youth), watched both for years and make sure I keep up to date with both scenes.

You however, don't seem to have the foggiest idea about MMA. That's the difference.

Fozzy

Just to chip in with a few thoughts...

Money Shot wrote: »

I find MMA incredibly boring to watch - it's all grappling

It's not all grappling. Some of the most exciting fights can have little to no grappling whatsoever

Money Shot wrote: »

Boxing is an incredible sport for so many reasons

Personally, I believe that MMA is an incredible sport as well, but for many more reasons. It incorporates a lot of what makes boxing great, and then also all the things that make several other martial arts great. There's a lot more to MMA than boxing and I find that this keeps fights fresher and more entertaining

Money Shot wrote: »

Most of the fans seem to be immunised wrestling fans looking for a bit of hardcore.

As a wrestling fan myself (obviously), I have no idea what you mean by that

cowzerp

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you'll find MMA fans, active fans. Alot of fans of the sport actually go to local MMA gyms and train, get amateur fights - just so they can better understand it.. There are an influx of idiots due to the popularity of MMA as of late, but the same can be said for boxing. It's popularity is blowing back up in the last year and you have alot of new fans to that too who don't understand the intricacies of boxing.

Sherdog is the biggest MMA forum and the mma fans talk some awful shiit!
there is also a boxing forum on it and the older mma fans on sherdog tend to admit that the mma fans are clueless and talk a lot of craap! the boxing forum tends to have fans that could talk about boxing in any era, most mma fans could not tell you about 2 years ago!

on our martial arts forum there is a lot of people who compete in mma and they know plenty but most mma fans i know(not fighters) dont know what pride fc is and have never heard of fedor etc..thats like a boxing fan not knowing Tyson...

PS,Money shot I fight mma and i boxed for ireland and won loads of titles, i'm also considering going pro in boxing, i made the change for the craic and also to learn new stuff-MMA is very skillful, The reason the top pro's dont do it is simple-MONEY.

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

on our martial arts forum there is a lot of people who compete in mma and they know plenty but most mma fans i know(not fighters) dont know what pride fc is and have never heard of fedor etc..thats like a boxing fan not knowing Tyson...

It's not nearly the same. Tyson's fights were available to view over here and in the US and he was covered by newspapers, tv shows, etc. Even if you weren't interested in boxing you couldn't help but see/hear of him. PRIDE had very limited exposure outside of Japan and unless an MMA fan were to read up about MMA on the internet they probably wouldn't hear of Fedor. It's really just down to how well the UFC have promoted that many people think that MMA is UFC

cowzerp

cowzerp wrote: »

Sherdog is the biggest MMA forum and the mma fans talk some awful shiit!
there is also a boxing forum on it and the older mma fans on sherdog tend to admit that the mma fans are clueless and talk a lot of craap! the boxing forum tends to have fans that could talk about boxing in any era, most mma fans could not tell you about 2 years ago!

In fairness though cowzer, sherdog has over 148,000 members. Statistically you will find an awful lot of doucebags if u put 148,000 people together, especially 148000 males in the 13-20 demograph! Not only that but sherdog suffers from the same crap any other message board suffers from, ie trolling.

mma.tv is slightly better but that has also been haunted by the curse of the troll as of late.

I dont think its fair to tar and feather MMA fans as ignorant because of the idiots who post on sherdog. If u seive through the bull then there are a lot of knowledgeable posters, especially if u venture into the training forums.

MMA is a new sport and because of the fact that it has only garnered huge exposure recently we are bound to get a lot of people who havent a clue but thats fine by me, the more of these kinds of people who get into it the better it is in the long run. I have been a big fan of MMA for a long tiem now and have seen the sport change drastically in that time and yes I have noticed increasing ignorance in certain parts of the fanbase mainly the casual fans attracted by "The Ultimate Fighter" but every sport has casual fans.

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

It's not nearly the same. Tyson's fights were available to view over here and in the US and he was covered by newspapers, tv shows, etc. Even if you weren't interested in boxing you couldn't help but see/hear of him. PRIDE had very limited exposure outside of Japan and unless an MMA fan were to read up about MMA on the internet they probably wouldn't hear of Fedor. It's really just down to how well the UFC have promoted that many people think that MMA is UFC

I know kids that did not watch boxing when tyson was fighting, fedor is still fighting, youtube is only a few typing letters away, if you dont know who fedor is you obviously never studied the history of mma, like boxing people tend too. ps, i know some very knowledgable mma fans but lots of people who go to events and dont know whats happening either, i lost my last fight by guillotine choke and most people thought i was disqaulified!! they where at an mma event so obviously where fans.

The Sparrow

walshb wrote: »

As a fan of boxing for many years now, I do not believe there is any single sport that is as tough and skilled and intricate as boxing. MMA is a mix of many diferent arts and to say a boxer can't hack it in MMA is silly. MMA is a jack of all trades. A boxer is a master of one trade, and if a boxer decided to devote himself full time to MMA, then yes, he/she could do very well. Remember, the MMA participants are not masters of all arts, they usually have a backround in one art and then learn the skills of others. So this applies to a boxer too, he/she is a master of boxing and then can become skilled in others. I do think boxing though is far more skilled and I don't get bored as easy from watching it.

I don't really agree with this at all. I like both sports but I think MMA fighters are much more skillful because they have to contend with so much more than a boxer who just has to worry about punches whereas an MMA fighter has to contend with punches, kicks, elbows, guarding against the takedown, grappling on the gound, jiu-jitsu as well as punches and elbows on the ground. Also I think that boxing is actually one of the skills that can be more easily learned by an MMA fighter.

Really if you want to be a top-level MMA fighter you want to be training everything from the start instead of coming as a boxer or whatever and trying to learn other skills. So I don't necessarily think that because you are a good boxer it will necessarily translate into becoming a good MMA fighter even if you apply yourself fully to it.

In fact if you were to start with any base I would imagine that wrestling would be it as it it is the hardest skill to pick up late.

Basically both of them are great sports and should be enjoyed on their own terms and not constantly compared.

cowzerp

woooo232 wrote: »

I don't really agree with this at all. I like both sports but I think MMA fighters are much more skillful because they have to contend with so much more than a boxer who just has to worry about punches whereas an MMA fighter has to contend with punches, kicks, elbows, guarding against the takedown, grappling on the gound, jiu-jitsu as well as punches and elbows on the ground. Also I think that boxing is actually one of the skills that can be more easily learned by an MMA fighter.

Wrong, you could start mma at 20 and become efficient at it even at a competitive level, at 20 you would not have a hope in boxing unless you where a freak of nature-you might learn to throw punches but landing them against a boxer will be a whole different ball game, you can get by in mma with basic boxing, basic bjj, basic muay thai, and i know some fighters who are very capable and are not very good at any of these isolated.

even the mma practitioners will back me up on that-boxing is a specialist skill that takes years to master, mma for 1-2 years and your ready to compete.

woooo232 wrote: »

Basically both of them are great sports and should be enjoyed on their own terms and not constantly compared.

Totally agreed...

woooo232

woooo232 wrote: »

Basically both of them are great sports and should be enjoyed on their own terms and not constantly compared.

Amen to that.

The Sparrow

cowzerp wrote: »

Wrong, you could start mma at 20 and become efficient at it even at a competitive level, at 20 you would not have a hope in boxing unless you where a freak of nature-you might learn to throw punches but landing them against a boxer will be a whole different ball game, you can get by in mma with basic boxing, basic bjj, basic muay thai, and i know some fighters who are very capable and are not very good at any of these isolated.

even the mma practitioners will back me up on that-boxing is a specialist skill that takes years to master, mma for 1-2 years and your ready to compete.

You are misunderstanding me. I meant that you could pick up boxing as a MMA skill easier than you could pick up other MMA skills such as wrestling.

cowzerp

woooo232 wrote: »

You are misunderstanding me. I meant that you could pick up boxing as a MMA skill easier than you could pick up other MMA skills such as wrestling.

That belief is why the majority of mma practitioners cant box.
Not meant to be funny or smart.

The Sparrow

cowzerp wrote: »

That belief is why the majority of mma practitioners cant box.
Not meant to be funny or smart.

Yeah but I think it is true... It is easier to teach wrestlers to box than boxers to wrestle. That doesn't mean that you don't have to really work at both skills. My only point is that it is easier to come to MMA with a wrestling background than a boxing background.

cowzerp

woooo232 wrote: »

Yeah but I think it is true... It is easier to teach wrestlers to box than boxers to wrestle. That doesn't mean that you don't have to really work at both skills. My only point is that it is easier to come to MMA with a wrestling background than a boxing background.

Thats worded better!! and i now know what your saying.

MMA fighters tend to train more for the ground so obviously been well trained at ground fighting is vital, i find wrestling to be quite natural and easy to learn for me, everyones different, submissions take more learning but with good coaches its not that big a deal, you may be right but untill a good boxer who learns some wresling does mma then its only a guess.

ryoishin

I think the beauty of mma is that you can play your strengths against your opponents weaknesses. Its growing so much. In the begining strikers were getting taken out by grapplers and that reversed for awhile. You do need to know how to strike if you want to do mma.

www.basrutten.tv is a decent mma forum with that bloke from www.rossboxing.com posting on it also.

The mma fans are getting better. In the begining they booed too much grappling. Now they cheer is someone gets a triangle choke or reverses position. But is comparing a fan base really a good way to size up each sport. Some people are more doers than spectators. I did rowing for years and i could nt tell you who won what olympics but i could teach you to row and how to train for it.

dlofnep

cowzerp wrote: »

Sherdog is the biggest MMA forum and the mma fans talk some awful shiit!
there is also a boxing forum on it and the older mma fans on sherdog tend to admit that the mma fans are clueless and talk a lot of craap! the boxing forum tends to have fans that could talk about boxing in any era, most mma fans could not tell you about 2 years ago!

on our martial arts forum there is a lot of people who compete in mma and they know plenty but most mma fans i know(not fighters) dont know what pride fc is and have never heard of fedor etc..thats like a boxing fan not knowing Tyson...

PS,Money shot I fight mma and i boxed for ireland and won loads of titles, i'm also considering going pro in boxing, i made the change for the craic and also to learn new stuff-MMA is very skillful, The reason the top pro's dont do it is simple-MONEY.

Find me a boxing forum with the userbase of sherdog and I'm pretty sure you'll get the same ratio of clueless fans.

If you ever turn pro Paul, let me know and I'll make it to the card to check it out for sure.

cowzerp

dlofnep wrote: »

If you ever turn pro Paul, let me know and I'll make it to the card to check it out for sure.

Will do, im waiting on the IBU to get back to me then will have to go through some tests, wont do them unless im definetly going to do it though!!

dlofnep

Ok cool man, best of luck with it.

megadodge

I agree that Haye could catch him with a punch, but I don't think he would.

Why ?

Would he suddenly lose the ability to hit a moving target once that moving target is a wrestler ?

Do you think because the wrestler is coming in low this negates a boxer's ability to punch ?

I think Frankie would be in on a very low single before Haye could blink

Careful now, you're kind of approaching the "Bruce Lee was faster than the speed of light and stronger than the Incredible Hulk" type arguments that occasionally crop up on various forums.

If you think he's just a "crude brawler", then you're not really the MMA fan you claim to be. He's trained with John Lewis for years, a solid BJJ black belt. He's been kickboxing for years, and wrestled most of his life.

I'm well aware that Lidell has a solid wrestling background! As you mentioned Randy Couture had a tough time trying to put and keep him down and that says it all.

My whole point is that Lidell is regularly able to land punches on these skilled wrestlers even though his punching technique is actually quite crude.

You're talking of taking down 300lb judo practioners, but they don't punch with the speed, accuracy and power of David Haye (probably don't punch at all), therefore the risk factor in trying to get close to enable you to take them down is MASSIVELY reduced.

I don't want to sound like I'm putting MMA down, because as I already mentioned I thoroughly enjoy it, it's just when you (and others) dismiss a boxer's chances against any decent MMA practitioner as if they were just clueless, one-dimenional, only-able-to-punch-at-head-height robots it annoys me because it smacks of the very ignorance you're accusing me of.

One of the earlier posters (Neil1984) made a generally good post but then mentions how easy fellas 30-40kg lighter than him were able to trip him when he started Brazilian Ju-Jitsu ??? I know he probably didn't mean it that way, but it ended up with him comparing himself to David Haye !! Using that logic I could say when I started boxing I was consistantly caught with jabs by fellas 6-8inches shorter than me (true) meaning Edgar would be caught just as easily?

Anyway, I think we'll have to agree to disagree until a matchup actually does happen. In the meantime I'm gonna enjoy both excellent, skillful sports.

dlofnep

megadodge wrote: »

Would he suddenly lose the ability to hit a moving target once that moving target is a wrestler ?

Yes, that's correct. Distance is closed, boxer is taken down and is out of his element immediately. See Tom Erikson against Matt Skelton to see what happens with a typical wrestler versus boxer scenario.

Frankie's shot is extremely deep and sudden. Haye doesn't hit him. You don't have the opportunity to box against a wrestler as you're trying to avoid the takedown while still trying to box efficiently.

megadodge wrote: »

Do you think because the wrestler is coming in low this negates a boxer's ability to punch ?

Yes, it does. It's all about timing. A wrestler would generally duck the punch and it's game over. It's 2008, not 1993. Royce Gracie (who's wrestling is about 1000 times worse than Frankie) put a boxer on his back with ease. Frankie does the same.

megadodge wrote: »

Careful now, you're kind of approaching the "Bruce Lee was faster than the speed of light and stronger than the Incredible Hulk" type arguments that occasionally crop up on various forums.

Wrong. Have you ever seen how quick the shot of a high class wrestler like Josh Koscheck is? If not, chances are you probably blinked. You severely underestimate wrestling. 19 times out of 20, a world class MMAist with a wrestling background beats a boxer.

megadodge wrote: »

My whole point is that Lidell is regularly able to land punches on these skilled wrestlers even though his punching technique is actually quite crude.

1) They have to worry about Liddell sprawling and repaying them for shooting. This is not the case against a boxer. A boxer cannot sprawl, therefore a wrestler would shoot without worrying of being sprawled on and then hit.

megadodge wrote: »

You're talking of taking down 300lb judo practioners, but they don't punch with the speed, accuracy and power of David Haye (probably don't punch at all), therefore the risk factor in trying to get close to enable you to take them down is MASSIVELY reduced.

I'm also a terrible judoka. Frankie Edgar could outwrestle 50 of me. I'm pretty sure he would avoid being hit by Haye and put him on his back. It's no big secret that boxers are out of their elements against wrestlers unless they have the ability to Sprawl.

megadodge

Distance is closed, boxer is taken down

And how exactly is the distance closed ?

Do wrestlers get from point A to point B without moving across the intervening ground ? Is there some sort of magic tunnel they go through ?

Yes, it does. It's all about timing. A wrestler would generally duck the punch and it's game over.

And what about if the boxer waited for him to make his move ?
Or if the boxer threw more than one punch ?

Have you ever seen how quick the shot of a high class wrestler like Josh Koscheck is? If not, chances are you probably blinked. You severely underestimate wrestling.

Jesus, where do I start ?

Well for starters you're the one doing the underestimating, not me.
At no stage have I made the sort of disparaging comments about wrestlers that you have about boxers.
Secondly, have you ever seen how quick the shot of a high class boxer like [any decent one you care to mention] is ? If not, chances are you probably blinked.

This is rapidly decending into a farcial argument and I'm not interested in that type of posting so unless you come up with something new in your argument I'm not gonna bother replying - it's pointless.

walshb

Jeez guys, wrestlers are masters of wrestling and boxers of boxing. Leave it there....If the bout descends into a stand up fight boxer more than likely wins and if the wrestler can get close and grab, he then has a good chance. My money however, is on the boxer, as he can win from the outside. The wrestler has to get in, and in trying to do so, is still liable to take a KO shot.
And even if he does get in, he's not guaranteed to win

Fozzy

megadodge wrote: »

And how exactly is the distance closed ?

Do wrestlers get from point A to point B without moving across the intervening ground ? Is there some sort of magic tunnel they go through ?

Francois Botha vs Yoshihiro Akiyama: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=qbAwNSj7cd8

Akiyama had absolutely no problem in avoiding the punch of probably the best boxer to ever do MMA and he was able to get a very simple takedown on him. Botha also outweighed Akiyama by at least 60lbs. The same thing has been proven many times

cowzerp

dlofnep wrote: »

This is not the case against a boxer. A boxer cannot sprawl

Sprawling is easily learned and your over rating it, the bit that takes a bit more to learn is the clinch! Randy avoids the clinch with basic footwork, where he uses the wrestling is when he rarely gets taken down-he gets back up very good.
getting into clinch position you have to go through punching area to clinch, thats why randy knocks out most wrestling types and struggles with boxer type fighters-clinch is the wrestlers strong point so as a non wrestler thats the area to avoid, i had good take down defense before i was ever shown any wrestling moves-Gary (judo mad) who's a black belt in judo will back me up on that and thats due to my boxing footwork.

the sprawl was and is very easily learned by anyone, because my footwork was faster than most mma fighters due to boxing i found it very quick to learn! Now if someone keeps trying takedowns and you dont rock them 1st they probably will get it due to a slip or something. Also im pretty sure haye could ko anyone from his back with mma gloves on, i would not like to be on the end of it anyway.

dlofnep

True Paul, but there are so many variables. You sprawl, wrestler turns the corner, or switches to a single with an inside trip.. or whatever scenario. A top class wrestler will generally penetrate an average sprawl, but it's not the sprawl that's important - it's the timing, the tell tale signs of a shoot etc..

If Haye trained in wrestling, then he would be a problem. But w'ere talking as it currently stands.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Jeez guys, wrestlers are masters of wrestling and boxers of boxing. Leave it there....If the bout descends into a stand up fight boxer more than likely wins and if the wrestler can get close and grab, he then has a good chance. My money however, is on the boxer, as he can win from the outside. The wrestler has to get in, and in trying to do so, is still liable to take a KO shot.
And even if he does get in, he's not guaranteed to win

I agree in what u said but I also say that the boxer has one chance to land the KO shot and if he doesnt then he's in close and in some trouble. Now evasive footwork gives him more than one chance i reckon but still pressure is on the boxer cos he has to land the punch whereas the wrestler can stand outside striking range and shoot in repeatedly until he gets one. Its a 2 sided coin really depends how you view it.

megadodge

megadodge wrote: »

I'm well aware that Lidell has a solid wrestling background! As you mentioned Randy Couture had a tough time trying to put and keep him down and that says it all.

My whole point is that Lidell is regularly able to land punches on these skilled wrestlers even though his punching technique is actually quite crude.

This point is a dud because Liddell is a very highly skilled wrestler himself hence how he keeps it standing long enough. If he didnt have the wrestling then his striking "prowess" (which even MMA fans look at as sloppy) would be useless. The Liddell thing has been discussed, he has sick natural power and a good chin hence why he's hard to put away but he gets outboxed in a lot of his fights.

megadodge wrote:

One of the earlier posters (Neil1984) made a generally good post but then mentions how easy fellas 30-40kg lighter than him were able to trip him when he started Brazilian Ju-Jitsu ??? I know he probably didn't mean it that way, but it ended up with him comparing himself to David Haye !! Using that logic I could say when I started boxing I was consistantly caught with jabs by fellas 6-8inches shorter than me (true) meaning Edgar would be caught just as easily?

I never compared myself to David Haye at all. Why would I do that?!! What I said was that guys who were 5"4 and about 60kgs were taking me down quite easily and Im 6"3 and weigh around 100kgs and the reason is that I didnt know what they were doing. Now Ive seen a few arguments saying "Ah yes but they can learn to sprawl" but the debate is about pure boxers vs pure grapplers and most pure boxers dont know what a sprawl is in a combat sense hence when their opponent is diving at their legs its foreign territory and confusion sets in which is an awful state of mind for a fight. If a boxer goes and learns defensive wrestling and starts defending takedowns in fights then he's training multiple arts which then becomes MMA not pure boxing because he didnt learn those defensive techniques in a boxing gym hence he's no longer a pure boxer. Do ya know what Im trying to get at there?

megadodge wrote:

Anyway, I think we'll have to agree to disagree until a matchup actually does happen. In the meantime I'm gonna enjoy both excellent, skillful sports.

There are examples of matchups to look at but i know you're talking of the proportions of BJ Penn vs Floyd Mayweather proportion which is fair enough cos id love to see it too. However then wwhich rules do they fight under etc....to be honest it'll never really be setlled because they are, at the end of the day, two separate and different sports! I love both, the only reason I get defensive is because boxing fans look down on MMA as "untechnical" and "just a few guys rolling around" which annoys me. It annoys me if any MMA fan looks down on boxing as nothing too but its more prevalent for boxing fans to rubbish MMA. People like yourself and cowzer though are a breath of fresh air because even though you are a boxing fan you are able to appreciate the skill required to do both.