Dog Fighting

Whispered

I was watching a thing last night about dog fighting in england. Turned my stomach, I literally spent the whole programme either crying or shouting at the TV.

It's amazing the lengths people will go to train their dog, sickening footage of a man with tiny puppies pushing them face to face until they fought and another video of a man smacking his dog with a rubber stick to "toughen him up"

It brought up a few questions and I would like to get peoples opinions here, especially those of you involved in rescuing the bull breeds (the focus of the programme)

Firstly, when a dog fighting ring is raided the dogs are obviously taken. These dogs are given medical care and nursed back to health, only to be PTS due to legislation. Awful and all as it seems, why are these dogs nursed back to health and kept in kennels "in a secret location" if they will ultimately be PTS anyway? I know that will come across as an ignorant question to people who know about these things. Of course in an ideal world they would be rehomed - but this is impossible isn't it? or are there ways around the legislation and these dogs are kept alive in the hopes of them finding a home? (I'm talking about England)

The second thing that came to mind is - the journalist described PBT's as the "rolls Royce" of fighting dogs and said that their training and diet is as strict as an olympic athletes. Seeing what these dogs are capable of doing to each other (and other dogs - terrible footage of a poodle being mauled by an escaped fighting dog) it seems a hopeless situation for these dogs. They are bred to be killed in the most terrible way. Granted some are kept for pets but the majority in certain areas are fighting machines. Do you think that the ban on them might be a misguided effort by the government to genuinely do something to end the suffering of these dogs, or is it just a piece of legislation to keep the public happy?

What is the extent of dog fighting here in Ireland? I have never heard anything about it - and would be outraged if anybody I knew had any involvement (wouldn't think twice about reporting it no matter who was involved) but I realise that it is very very undercover in england so I assume the same can be said for here?

Lastly - what can normal people do to try make some difference?

The Artist

helena.ryan wrote: »

I was watching a thing last night about dog fighting in england. Turned my stomach, I literally spent the whole programme either crying or shouting at the TV.

It's amazing the lengths people will go to train their dog, sickening footage of a man with tiny puppies pushing them face to face until they fought and another video of a man smacking his dog with a rubber stick to "toughen him up"

It brought up a few questions and I would like to get peoples opinions here, especially those of you involved in rescuing the bull breeds (the focus of the programme)

Firstly, when a dog fighting ring is raided the dogs are obviously taken. These dogs are given medical care and nursed back to health, only to be PTS due to legislation. Awful and all as it seems, why are these dogs nursed back to health and kept in kennels "in a secret location" if they will ultimately be PTS anyway? I know that will come across as an ignorant question to people who know about these things. Of course in an ideal world they would be rehomed - but this is impossible isn't it? or are there ways around the legislation and these dogs are kept alive in the hopes of them finding a home? (I'm talking about England)

The second thing that came to mind is - the journalist described PBT's as the "rolls Royce" of fighting dogs and said that their training and diet is as strict as an olympic athletes. Seeing what these dogs are capable of doing to each other (and other dogs - terrible footage of a poodle being mauled by an escaped fighting dog) it seems a hopeless situation for these dogs. They are bred to be killed in the most terrible way. Granted some are kept for pets but the majority in certain areas are fighting machines. Do you think that the ban on them might be a misguided effort by the government to genuinely do something to end the suffering of these dogs, or is it just a piece of legislation to keep the public happy?

What is the extent of dog fighting here in Ireland? I have never heard anything about it - and would be outraged if anybody I knew had any involvement (wouldn't think twice about reporting it no matter who was involved) but I realise that it is very very undercover in england so I assume the same can be said for here?

Lastly - what can normal people do to try make some difference?

it still happening alright every where,its sick and barbaric,I just dont know what thrill they get out of it,money id suppose.there is a need for more goverment power to put a stop to it as imo theyre not.In ireland extent of dog fighting id say high imo.

Whispered

davey180 wrote: »

,I just dont know what thrill they get out of it,money id suppose.

TEN THOUSAND POUNDS on a fight is not uncommon apparently! Dogs with good lines are kept and bred for generations and can fetch huge money too apparently - I thought I heard £50,000 but I assume I misheard as it sounds ridiculous.

LovelyTom

I watched that programme too, it was sick to see the dogs after the fights and the footage of the actual fights was too hard to watch. I'm pretty sure the presenter said as high as £50,000 for a dog wasn't uncommon... that much for a sick sense of pride. it's disgusting

franksm

Horrifying stuff...

Worse too when you hear about pets being kidnapped as fodder for 'training' these dogs.

Unfortunately those responsible get off pretty easily, the law just isn't there to protect animals

bitemybanger

Saw the start of the programme, had to turn it off, have a staffie myself and thier such loyal and loving pets i dont know how anybody could do this.

jameshayes

Anyone know the name of it? I'd like to watch it - well not 'like' as such...

See if i can download it online...

The Artist

jameshayes wrote: »

Anyone know the name of it? I'd like to watch it - well not 'like' as such...

See if i can download it online...

it was on bbc one night about 3 weeks ago.

lakes

jameshayes wrote: »

Anyone know the name of it? I'd like to watch it - well not 'like' as such...

See if i can download it online...[/QUOTE

think its something like 'savage sports' britian!! something like that anyway,could be wrong!:)

Whispered

It was lawless britian I think

Was on last night on virgin 1 too. So upsetting.

kerrysgold

I saw it on TV3, it's called "lawless britain" They are sick! and yep they said the "best" dogs are worth up to £50,000. It doesn't bear thinking about them setting the dogs on ordinary dogs to train them! It's bad enough when the other dog has a fair chance of defending himself.

Whispered

really though I had misheard the 50k remark - thats just terrifying, how do people like that get their hands on so much money. I mean it's obviously a "sport" involving more well off people. Not just thick headed little skangers which is what I would have always thought.

Morganna

I saw that programme it was awful .I also saw one the other week about dog fighting here in ireland .One of the top gaa footballers from the north was involved .It is rife here to .

The Artist

Morganna wrote: »

I saw that programme it was awful .I also saw one the other week about dog fighting here in ireland .One of the top gaa footballers from the north was involved .It is rife here to .

thats right there was a gaa top player involved.Oh the shame!

Morganna

davey180 wrote: »

thats right there was a gaa top player involved.Oh the shame!

was he a tyrone player or fermanagh

The Artist

helena.ryan wrote: »

really though I had misheard the 50k remark - thats just terrifying, how do people like that get their hands on so much money. I mean it's obviously a "sport" involving more well off people. Not just thick headed little skangers which is what I would have always thought.

the 50k money is probably pooled in eg 10 guys or gals come together and make up the money.5k each.i dont think imo that rich people may play the game as why would they spend it on gambling on dog fights.eg House,cars,holidays,etc get my meaning.

kerrysgold

criminals seem to have plenty of money, at least the CAB has gotten a lot of their money I think.

didn't the gaa fella get kicked off the team?

The Artist

Morganna wrote: »

was he a tyrone player or fermanagh

i know his name but im not saying it.

Morganna

No i dont think he did not sure

The Artist

kerrysgold wrote: »

criminals seem to have plenty of money, at least the CAB has gotten a lot of their money I think.

didn't the gaa fella get kicked off the team?

i dont really know,id say its still under investigation???

Morganna

davey180 wrote: »

i know his name but im not saying it.

I cant remember his name but im sure i could look it up on net.

Morganna

he denied the whole thing but was as guilty as hell

The Artist

Morganna wrote: »

I cant remember his name but im sure i could look it up on net.

i dont think its wise to put his name on this thread?

Morganna

davey180 wrote: »

i dont think its wise to put his name on this thread?

I agree it wouldnt be wise .

The Artist

Morganna wrote: »

I agree it wouldnt be wise .

stiil his name should be on The Hall Of Shame!

Morganna

What goes round comes round im a great believer in karma and he and all those other disgusting people will get there come uppance.

MsFifers

The mods can delete this post if necessary - but I don't believe in hiding the identity of people involved in this type of activity and its a matter of public record that Ger Cavlan, Tyrone player, was prosecuted for possession of a "dangerous dog" and not having it muzzled in a public place. He was not prosecuted for dog fighting and always claimed that the dog in his posession with facial injuries was not his, and he was only taking care of it for another person.

He was dropped from the team after the TV show in 2007. I don't think he is on the panel now, but I'm not sure about that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6584465.stm

GAA star fined for dangerous dog

Ger Cavlan plays Gaelic football for Tyrone
A Tyrone GAA football star has been fined £650 after pleading guilty to possession of a dangerous dog at Dungannon Magistrates Court.
Gerard Cavlan, 30, of Willow Gardens, Dungannon, was also banned for five years from owning a terrier-type dog and ordered to pay costs of £4,300.

USPCA officials seized the animal, which had a number of scars, after they spotted it with the footballer.

Magistrate Eamon King urged Cavlan to remember his position as a role model.

"You have to be aware that people do look up to you and people do tend to emulate you and want to emulate you," he said.

"We want people to imitate you in all that's good - i.e. your successful footballing career - not in the type of activity that takes place in back yards in the dark of night involving one animal going face-to-face against another."


This pit bull terrier crossbreed was found at the home of Ger Cavlan

Cavlan admitted five offences involving possession of a pit bull, taking it out in public without a muzzle and having no licence for three other Staffordshire terriers.

The magistrate ordered the pit bull to be destroyed.

His lawyer, Michael Duffy, told the court Cavlan was not the pit bull's owner, but had only collected it from kennels for a Dublin man, who attended the court hearing.

The plan was to deliver the dog but before that Cavlan had taken it for a two-minute walk to stretch its legs, the barrister said.

"Mr Cavlan has no involvement in relation to any other activities that would be illegal.

"This favour which he did for another person has landed him in a very unfortunate and very sorry situation.

"He was doing somebody a good turn and he's paying a very heavy price for it," he said.

Mr King told Cavlan that if he had had a record and not entered a plea of guilty he would have jailed him if convicted of the offence.

"The message has to go out - in this day and age there is no place in this society for animals of this nature," the magistrate said.

"They are certainly not pets. They get off the leash, one or two dogs, and if they get a child, God knows (what could happen)."

A senior official from the local authority, which prosecuted the case, warned they would hunt out those who keep pit bulls.

Alan Burke, director of environmental health with Dungannon and South Tyrone Council, said: "If you keep pit bulls in this area, we will follow you and we will put you before the court."

Killme00

MsFifers wrote: »

I don't believe in hiding the identity of people involved in this type of activity and its a matter of public record that Ger Cavlan

+1 million

He was dropped from the Tyrone panel and hasnt been near it since.

BryanL

one ironic thing about all those investigations is the "rescued" dogs mostly get destroyed
the dogs really are caught between a rock and a hard place.


Alan Burke, director of environmental health with Dungannon and South Tyrone Council, said: "If you keep pit bulls in this area, we will follow you and we will put you before the court."

they persue you, then kill the dog. but yet those dogs seem to live in the Republic without killing dogs and kids.
with the sort of money being quoted CAB should be closing them down.
I don't see why that guy having served whatever sentence he was given should be allowed to play GAA, he was charged for possesion of a "crossbred pitbull"
Bryan

MsFifers

I know - its so ridiculous - the dogs face harsher punishment than the people who abused them.

But can a dog that has been "trained" as a fight dog ever be rehabilitated - or will it always need expert supervision?

togster

^^ of course it can never be fully re-habilatated. I think all these dogs should be outlawed. I have friends who have one a staff and she is gorsgeous. The most intelligent dog i met. However outlawing them would prevent people using them for sport and then using the excuse the dog is kept as a pet.

Killme00

BryanL wrote: »

I don't see why that guy having served whatever sentence he was given should be allowed to play GAA, he was charged for possesion of a "crossbred pitbull"
Bryan

What he does outside of the gaa hasnt nothing to do with them. He was dropped from the panel but there is nothing stopping him from playing Gaelic football for his club, it is an amateur game after all!!

With regards to the PTS / Retraining issue, its a very tough one to call. i'm sure the decision regarding rehoming or putting to sleep all comes down to cost and the cheaper solution will always win.

cotton

togster wrote: »

^^ of course it can never be fully re-habilatated. I think all these dogs should be outlawed. I have friends who have one a staff and she is gorsgeous. The most intelligent dog i met. However outlawing them would prevent people using them for sport and then using the excuse the dog is kept as a pet.

If you outlaw them, they'll only be replaced by another breed.

Michael Vicks dogs are succesfully being rehabilitated.

Whispered

BryanL wrote: »

one ironic thing about all those investigations is the "rescued" dogs mostly get destroyed
the dogs really are caught between a rock and a hard place.

I know it's ridiculous, unfortunetly what can be done - people breed these dogs knowing that they will either be used for fighting or knowing that even if they are got as pets, if they ever find themselves in a pound they will likely be PTS due to rehoming issues (same with rotties, gsd's and others at the moment)

cotton wrote: »

If you outlaw them, they'll only be replaced by another breed..

Very true.

As for the rehab thing, I'd like to think they could be but I'm not entirely sure if they ever could be 100%. Perhaps in a controlled environment, but I wouldn't trust them near other dogs. someone I know made that mistake when I was a kid. He took in a young dog, (this was not a pure bull breed btw but may have been a cross, I was very young so don't remember) who was not wanted by his "owner". This dog was fantastic around people, but not so good around other dogs. He worked hard with him, spent a lot of time trying to have him accept other dogs and it seemed to be working. He was there about 6 months in total when the new owner had them out (supervised) when this little black terror caught a hold of a JRT pup and shredded him. Poor baby

These people had dogs all their lives, a lot of them rescues, and had never seen an attack like this. He just wanted to kill him. Nothing they could do would make him let go of the pup. It was horrific.

Needless to say, I am a great believe in rehabilitation of these dogs but would always be very wary of them around others. Perhaps with professional help they might be ok but even with 30years experience that man had was not expecting what happened, or the sheer determination this dog had.

(the original owner of the dog was reported shortly after the second person acquired the dog which is why I'm so vague on who it happened to, you never know who might be reading, prob silly but to be on the safe side )

togster

rehabilitation would suggest that the dogs could be introduced into any domestic environment and function as a normal domesticated pet. Not true. These dogs are trained from an early age to utilize their in built agressive tendencies. These instincts are inherent in every dog bred by man for a specific purpose. Most dogs such as pit bulls never are allowed to develop these natural characteristics. However once they are developed it is very difficult to get the dog to behave in a fashion completly alien to them. I have seen this with fox hounds even young hounds they find it very difficult to function as a pet in a household for the simple reason that they are bred to function within a group of hounds. Personally I would never be able to trust a figthing dog. So the notion of rehabilation is void

cotton

Thank God the notion of rehabilation isn't void to these people.:mad:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/01/26/sports/s090134S37.DTL

AckwelFoley

Dog fighting sickens me.

Im not going to elaborate on what i think of the bastards involved because i will breach all kinds of forum rules. :mad:

lakes

Morganna wrote: »

was he a tyrone player or fermanagh

tyrone man:mad:

lurchin along

helena.ryan wrote: »

obviously a "sport" involving more well off people. Not just thick headed little skangers which is what I would have always thought.

Skangers they are but they have pocketfuls of cash and barrels full more in their caravans.Tipp Spca have tried to get pit fights raided(Cashel and Ballingarry are hot centres for the sport)but failed because so many gardai are involved the fight organisers were tipped off!

EGAR

togster wrote: »

rehabilitation would suggest that the dogs could be introduced into any domestic environment and function as a normal domesticated pet. Not true. These dogs are trained from an early age to utilize their in built agressive tendencies. These instincts are inherent in every dog bred by man for a specific purpose. Most dogs such as pit bulls never are allowed to develop these natural characteristics. However once they are developed it is very difficult to get the dog to behave in a fashion completly alien to them. I have seen this with fox hounds even young hounds they find it very difficult to function as a pet in a household for the simple reason that they are bred to function within a group of hounds. Personally I would never be able to trust a figthing dog. So the notion of rehabilation is void

I am sorry but I strongly disagree because I have sucessfully integrated many APBT with fighting backround into normal domestic settings. The most recent one is Nipper, the BBC dog . So your notion is void.

kerrysgold

I wouldn't mind an ex-fighting dog as a pet as they seem to be people-friendly but I don't think I could trust one with another animal so it's not realistic for me, but it's nice to see an effort is being made to help them get back to normal!

The Artist

kerrysgold wrote: »

I wouldn't mind an ex-fighting dog as a pet as they seem to be people-friendly but I don't think I could trust one with another animal so it's not realistic for me, but it's nice to see an effort is being made to help them get back to normal!

my staffordshire was from a dogs home and was used for fighting as i felt sorry for him as i new it was going to get put down on the day as he was not claimed for a week.So i asked the dog home owner if i could take him,they said id have to be careful because of his backround.i pleaded for him and eventually rehomed him myself.It was not a easy task as was nervous an i new quite a bit about these breeds and gave him all the attention he needed,walks,extra petting,as much food he needs,freedom in our back garden(no chains,collar,any thing that might upset him)That was four years ago and now hes a completely differant dog now.So rehoming ex-fighting dogs can be done if you know what to do.

kerrysgold

that is a great story, lucky little fella. did he ever get on with other dogs again? it seems it can be done which is great.

The Artist

kerrysgold wrote: »

that is a great story, lucky little fella. did he ever get on with other dogs again? it seems it can be done which is great.

yes i got a male bulldog and took them about 2 months to settle down no bother:D

kerrysgold

was he an ex-fighting dog? I've never heard of bulldogs being used for fighting but who knows. *shrug*