Bertie Ahern Legacy

mike65

Napoleon wished for lucky generals not great or brave ones.

Somehow lucky is the word that seems most appropriate for Bertie Ahern, when he took charge of the Fianna Fail party it wasn't because he was the best man for the job rather it was a case of a riven party in need of a safe middle of the road pair of hands. The internal warfare as the c&w crowd did battle with the successors to men in mohair suits was damagaing and alienating potential er coalition partners.

Ahern was the right man at the time. When the Rainbow coalition failed to sell themselves in the 1997 election Ahern hit it lucky again. Everthing for an economic boom was in place and the upswing was already clear - all he had to do was not destroy it. He did'nt but Aherns complete lack of vision for his own state has us landed with a plumped-up second-rate public sector and an ongoing infrastructer deficit.

His launded work with respect to Northern Ireland was again a case of arriving after the hard work had been done - Albert Reynolds and Dick Springs contributiuon is already almost forgotten. He did well but it was not his baby.

Bertie Aherns contribution to clean politics is almost non-exisitent. The roll call of chancers who have been found out on his watch is staggering.

Discuss

Mike.

LostinBlanch

That seems fairly good to me Mike.

Add in a failure to take any hard decisions that needed to be taken instead just throwing money at the problem hoping to leave it to someone else cf. benchmarking and public sector reform, or failure to upgrade Dublin airport for fear of upsetting a few workers there. The fact that eventually work has commenced on a second terminal years too late doesn't excuse leaving it to fester.

Huge over runs in costs Luas, Port Tunnel anyone because he let the muppets pretend they were ministers. Martin Cullen and electronic voting, yet he still has him as a minister cos he's from the southeast.

The systematic denigration of poliitics in this country seen in the FF spin, "sure all the politicians are the same."

Yes he did take his part in the peace process like many others and he deserves kudos for that. He was also seen as a good negotiator especially when serving as minister for labour; and also on the European Stage.

Still going to be percieved as corrupt by many.

The greens may miss him though, especially if BIFFO cosies up to Gilmore.

jmayo

Well there is peace in NI where two fine tolerant parties, who have absolutely no links to any form of questionable activities, now share power.

He did give us Luas, and it was just a wee bit more expensive and later than originally forecast.
He did give us e-voting and it is not his fault that we are luedities and want to still use pencils.
He did give us the port tunnel which is open most of the time.
He gave us a wider toll bridge over the liffey where we get to queue and watch all the interesting roadworks on the road just completed 7/8 years ago.
He helped re-envigorate all those satelite towns and villages, where previously nobody lived and now lots of commuters have the priviledge of calling home and where they have the chance of possibly educating their creche reared children.

He helped thousands of builders and developers enjoy a better standard of living.
He helped convince numerous rich business people to invest in healthcare be it new hospitals or nursing homes.
He helped privatise Aer Lingus and thus give our Northern Brethern another option in flying between Belfast and London Heathrow.

He made plasters and men called Paddy sound cool.

He couragously promoted and continously backed outstanding ministers e.g Ray Burke, Martin Cullen, Mary O'Rourke, Michael Martin, Mary Harney, Noel Dempsey.

I'll bet the EU can't wait to nab someone with his track record and potential

betonit

jmayo wrote: »

I'll bet the EU can't wait to nab someone with his track record and potential

not if that someone has a 'possible' dodgy tax situation and if there is more to come

Liam Byrne

I know there's a huge level of sarcasm in there, jmayo, but there isn't quite enough......

jmayo wrote: »

He did give us Luas, and it was just a wee bit more expensive and later than originally forecast.

He gave the Dubs Luas and the rest of the country feck-all.....And who took the hit for the over-run ? We did, coz we paid for it. Was anyone fired ? No.

jmayo wrote: »

He did give us e-voting and it is not his fault that we are luedities and want to still use pencils.

Leaving aside that the system chosen doesn't work, and it's also costing us a fortune. Again, no-one responsible fired.

jmayo wrote: »

He did give us the port tunnel which is open most of the time.

Again, a backyarder. No argument, although it's pretty a pretty useless addition to my life.

jmayo wrote: »

He gave us a wider toll bridge over the liffey where we get to queue and watch all the interesting roadworks on the road just completed 7/8 years ago.

Another job done for Dublin by the Dublin Taoiseach, fair play! I presume there's a healthy level of tongue-in-cheek in that, though, coz it's (a) costing a fortune to "buy it back" and if (b) things were planned properly it wouldn't lead you Dubs into a building site/car park.

jmayo wrote: »

He helped re-envigorate all those satelite towns and villages, where previously nobody lived and now lots of commuters have the priviledge of calling home and where they have the chance of possibly educating their creche reared children.

And where, because of a complete lack of infrastructure and planning, there are schools closing down, no shops, no facilities, no bus services, you can't get to the pub and you have to drive miles to work because the only reason you're living out there is the fact that a house a reasonable distance from work would have cost you 4 times as much. Yet more traffic jams.

jmayo wrote: »

He helped thousands of builders and developers enjoy a better standard of living.

And in the process left most people with mortgages and debt that they will probably never pay off.

jmayo wrote: »

He helped convince numerous rich business people to invest in healthcare be it new hospitals or nursing homes.

And left our own healthcare go down the swannee...

jmayo wrote: »

He helped privatise Aer Lingus and thus give our Northern Brethern another option in flying between Belfast and London Heathrow.

To the detriment of our own transport facilities and regional development - ahem - "plan".

jmayo wrote: »

He made plasters and men called Paddy sound cool.

Presume you mean "plasterers.....

jmayo wrote: »

He couragously promoted and continously backed outstanding ministers e.g Ray Burke, Martin Cullen, Mary O'Rourke, Michael Martin, Mary Harney, Noel Dempsey.

No need for me to add anything there - it's already dripping with sarcasm.....

jmayo wrote: »

I'll bet the EU can't wait to nab someone with his track record and potential

Are you allowed use the words "nab" and "Bertie" in the same sentence ? Remember, the tribunal hasn't proven anything yet !!

GaryB

How arrogant, and quite frankly, snobby you all sound!

Bertie Ahern was a great Taoiseach and that statement is backed up by the simple fact that he held office more times than any other Taoiseach with the exception of Dev who also held office for 3 terms.

The man gave his whole life to the Fianna Fail party and the people of the entire island of Ireland.

The Tribunal has not finished it's enquiry either, that must be remembered - Bertie Ahern, at this point in time has done nothing wrong as far as his finances are concerned.

Of course he isn't perfect but he is seen as one of the most influential political leaders of his time and never before was there so much certainty and peace on this island something the people who actually elected him should take pride in!

Breezer

GaryB wrote: »

Bertie Ahern was a great Taoiseach and that statement is backed up by the simple fact that he held office more times than any other Taoiseach with the exception of Dev who also held office for 3 terms.

Bertie held office for 2 and a fifth terms. George Bush also held office for two terms, would you agree that he is a great politician?

The man gave his whole life to the Fianna Fail party and the people of the entire island of Ireland.

Yes, he was very good at supporting Fianna Fáil and its incompetent ministers. Yes, he gave everything to the entire island of Drumcondra. Oh wait.

OK, in fairness I admire him for the work he did in Northern Ireland, but there were others involved there too. South of the border he did far more harm than good.

The Tribunal has not finished it's enquiry either, that must be remembered - Bertie Ahern, at this point in time has done nothing wrong as far as his finances are concerned.

He has told several conflicting stories to the Tribunal. We'll see what happens.

Of course he isn't perfect but he is seen as one of the most influential political leaders of his time and never before was there so much certainty and peace on this island something the people who actually elected him should take pride in!

I have acknowledged his contributions in Northern Ireland. Other than that, despite being the leader of the party claiming to be the guardians of our good economy, we now face a period of immense economic uncertainty with no public services to fall back on. I take great pride in the fact that I have never voted for Bertie Ahern or his party.

jmayo

GaryB wrote: »

How arrogant, and quite frankly, snobby you all sound!

Bertie Ahern was a great Taoiseach and that statement is backed up by the simple fact that he held office more times than any other Taoiseach with the exception of Dev who also held office for 3 terms.

The man gave his whole life to the Fianna Fail party and the people of the entire island of Ireland.

No, he is the one that is arrogant when he assumes that he can weave and duck, run to the high court and not answer questions about where and how he got large sums of cash while he held the seond most important political office in the land.

Ah sure he got nothing in return for all this selfless sacrifice :rolleyes:
Well apart from being one of the highest paid democratically elected leaders and having the perk of us paying for a car under his arse for last 11 years.
But sure why should we complain when we have to pay tolls, high road tax, VRT, high tax on fuel to travel or rather crawl on the substandard roads that our motoring taxes are meant to have paid for.

Oh I almost forgot the make up bills and the other expenses along the way.


Yes he gave a good chunk of his life to FF, where it seems blank signed cheques and mortgage handouts are the norm for the privledged few.

Nice to see Liam Byrne you got the jist of my messge above

serfboard

Gerry Adams wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7326148.stm

He is justifiably proud of the fact that he was the taoiseach who was in place and who, with the british prime minister and the rest of us, brought about the Good Friday agreement and he deserves our thanks for that.

And he deserves our gratitude for that I mean, it was a collective effort, but clearly as the taoiseach of the day he is due appreciation for that.

So, he is due appreciation for being the taoiseach of the day

Damning with faint praise, I'd say

Mr.Micro

Nothing lasts forever including HIS TEFLON coating.

peasant

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Nothing lasts forever including HIS TEFLON coating.

So?

The FF machine is going to (p)blunder on as if nothing happened ...different figurehead, same course.

SkepticOne

He will be remembered for great management of the economy. Incorrectly, imo.

spank_inferno

His legacy can be seen as one of international fame but domestic inadequacy.
Peace in northern Ireland, a sucesful EU presidency for ireland, negotiations of the nice & lisbon treaties... all gave him a reputation abroad as a capable politician.
However back home its just been too many missed oppertunities.

A good leader, but not a great leader

CerebralCortex

GaryB wrote: »

How arrogant, and quite frankly, snobby you all sound!

Bertie Ahern was a great Taoiseach and that statement is backed up by the simple fact that he held office more times than any other Taoiseach with the exception of Dev who also held office for 3 terms.

The man gave his whole life to the Fianna Fail party and the people of the entire island of Ireland.

The Tribunal has not finished it's enquiry either, that must be remembered - Bertie Ahern, at this point in time has done nothing wrong as far as his finances are concerned.

Of course he isn't perfect but he is seen as one of the most influential political leaders of his time and never before was there so much certainty and peace on this island something the people who actually elected him should take pride in!

This is common for Bertie fans to come out with. But what exactly makes him such a great leader.

Mr.Micro

In his speech this morning he takes credit for a great deal, the economy, peace process, being Taoiseach 3 times. He was involved as were many others in achieving the above. As far as the peace process goes it was John Major as far as I can recall who started the whole thing. If the IRA/UVF/UVA and whoever had not wanted a peace process then Ahern or anybody else would have not made a jot of difference. He just happened to be Taoiseach at the right time, he is no diplomat. With regard to the economy it was the prospective Euro introduction and its umbrella currency safety that gave Ireland its boom economic success, not anything Ahern did. Look at the wholescale planning corruption that went at Dublin County Hall under his watch, and is probably rife in several counties still, very little infrastructure still, failing health service, no investment in education etc. Where has all the surplus of the economic boom gone then? Legacy, what legacy I have already forgotten.

mike65

mike65 wrote: »

His launded work with respect to Northern Ireland was again a case of arriving after the hard work had been done - Albert Reynolds and Dick Springs contributiuon is already almost forgotten. He did well but it was not his baby.

Trimble, Blair and Adams have all spoken of him in slightly different and more glowing terms when it comes to the North.

Sure what would they know...;)

eoin5

As far as Berties legacy goes hell be forgotten pretty quickly after hes left. All I can say is that within his terms were wealthier in general but weve lost so much of our heart and our culture as we suckle big foreign businesses.

Crash

Deleted User wrote: »

Trimble, Blair and Adams have all spoken of him in slightly different and more glowing terms when it comes to the North.

Sure what would they know...;)

Eh, read adams' quote again - it is actually in no way flattering to Bertie.

guinnessdrinker

Mr.Micro wrote: »

As far as the peace process goes it was John Major as far as I can recall who started the whole thing. If the IRA/UVF/UVA and whoever had not wanted a peace process then Ahern or anybody else would have not made a jot of difference. He just happened to be Taoiseach at the right time, he is no diplomat.

I don't believe Major started the whole thing at all. You could go further back than John Major, to 1988 when talks between John Hulme and Gerry Adams led to the Hume/Adams initiative. Albert Reynolds should receive much credit for bringing Hume and Adams to Dublin to discuss the initiative. Major, though did facilitate the peace process of course.

If Ahern is being credited for bringing peace to the North it is wrong, yes he did contribute greatly to the ongoing process but I feel the role Albert Reynold's played should get much of this credit but he is rearly mentioned, even by FF supporters.

Plus, out of Ahern and Tony Blair, who do you think weilded the most influence over the peace process? I've even heard Martin McGuinnes say good words about Blair, (yes a SF politician speaking well of a British PM!).

Ahern did seem to have a good relationship with Blair, which was a good thing but Ahern responsible for the peace process? Come on.

juuge

The peace process was the final step on a long journey which started from the Sunningdale Agreement and continued through the Anglo Irish Agreement to the Downing Street Declaration. Peace was already on the way and Ahern just happened to be able to take the credit for the work done by previous taoisigh. He didn't have the graciousness to acknowledge the many parts played by others who for some placed their lives at risk to establish peace.
The next fianna fail leader, will be one of the gobsh**es who publicly defended the indefensible and told us all the bertie is an honest man.

Breezer

SkepticOne wrote: »

He will be remembered for great management of the economy. Incorrectly, imo.

His legacy can be seen as one of international fame but domestic inadequacy.
Peace in northern Ireland, a sucesful EU presidency for ireland, negotiations of the nice & lisbon treaties... all gave him a reputation abroad as a capable politician.
However back home its just been too many missed oppertunities.

Well said, both of you.

Mr.Micro wrote:

He just happened to be Taoiseach at the right time, he is no diplomat.

I disagree, I think he is an excellent diplomat, and believe me I am no fan of the man. He has charisma and an ability to make other people identify with him (personally I never have, as I believe it's all a sham, but the vast majority of people do). Unfortunately this is the same reason he made a woeful Taoiseach at home: sitting on fences, not only seeing but taking both sides of every argument, an incapability to make tough decisions. A great mediator when at the end of the day the decision is down to others. A poor leader.

Liam Byrne

Breezer wrote: »

I think he is an excellent diplomat, and believe me I am no fan of the man. He has charisma and an ability to make other people identify with him (personally I never have, as I believe it's all a sham, but the vast majority of people do). Unfortunately this is the same reason he made a woeful Taoiseach at home: sitting on fences, not only seeing but taking both sides of every argument, an incapability to make tough decisions. A great mediator when at the end of the day the decision is down to others. A poor leader.

Breezer could be on to something there. Ironically, the only politician in recent times who stuck to his principles was Michael McDowell, and he got shafted for that.

I certainly didn't always agree with McDowell, but at least you knew where you stood with him, and where he stood on issues, and you have to respect him for that (or rather, you should, but most of the Irish electorate didn't).

Bertie [the politician, I have no issues or experience of him as a person, but his...] "Man of the People" was a sham.

Breezer

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Breezer could be on to something there. Ironically, the only politician in recent times who stuck to his principles was Michael McDowell, and he got shafted for that.

I certainly didn't always agree with McDowell, but at least you knew where you stood with him, and where he stood on issues, and you have to respect him for that (or rather, you should, but most of the Irish electorate didn't).

I respected him for it, certainly, although I didn't like his arrogance and disagreed with many of his policies. I would never have voted for him and it has nothing to do with lack of respect.

I don't think it's fair to Pat Rabbitte to say that McDowell was the only one to stick to his principles. He said he would not lead Labour into coalition with FF and stuck to his guns. The two were similar in many ways: both fiery characters, both men of integrity, neither very appealing to the masses.

Gilmore seems to be in the same mould as Rabbitte although I think in different circumstance he might fare better. He's certainly being more flexible about his approach to coalition, which may serve him well.

And lastly, for fear of sounding like a broken record on these threads, I don't think anyone can deny that Enda Kenny is a man of principle. You may think he's wooden, you may think him ridiculous and too inexperienced for leadership, but you can't question his integrity.

But yes, in Government in recent times, McDowell was the only one you could depend on to always be true to himself regardless of the cost.

Liam Byrne

Breezer wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to Pat Rabbitte to say that McDowell was the only one to stick to his principles.

But yes, in Government in recent times, McDowell was the only one you could depend on to always be true to himself regardless of the cost.

Sorry, should've been clearer; I meant in Government. You're spot-on about Pat Rabbitte, and the other major one that stands out would have been Dessie O'Malley.

There are probably others who haven't had to stick to their guns in high-profile situations or on high-profile issues; and some of thos might have and would have impressed if in that situation, but those 3 are the only ones that spring to mind.

El Stuntman

This thread is premature by at least ten years. This is history we are taking about, not a soccer match where Eamonn and Gilesy are expected to sum up the performance as the 'lad done good' two minutes after it ended. You need the distance of historical perspective in order to accurately assess Ahern's 'legacy'.

So in summary, I like Chairman Mao's answer when asked what he thought the impact of the French Revolution was (over 150 years after it had happened):

"it is too soon to say"

perspective :pac::pac:

gordon_gekko

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Breezer could be on to something there. Ironically, the only politician in recent times who stuck to his principles was Michael McDowell, and he got shafted for that.

I certainly didn't always agree with McDowell, but at least you knew where you stood with him, and where he stood on issues, and you have to respect him for that (or rather, you should, but most of the Irish electorate didn't).

Bertie [the politician, I have no issues or experience of him as a person, but his...] "Man of the People" was a sham.

the love which the majority of irish people had for bertie aherne and the hate with which most irish people had for michael mc dowell is very interesting

2 polar opposites , bertie aherne who takes both sides of an arguement , all fudge , tries to be all things to all men and michael mc dowell who you always knew where you stood with

bertie was hugely popular i believe because bertie aherne,s personality was quintesentially irish where as michael mc dowells was the complete oppisite
irish people for the most part dont like to tell it like it is or be told it like it is , that is why mcdowell was so hated , he was too straight, he also came across as being an intelectual which irish people despise aswell , bertie on the other hand came across like a likable rogue which we adore
bertie hadnt an idealogical bone in his body , the irish people are not an idealogical people at heart ,
bertie aherne suited this country down to a T , he will be remembered with much love

ednwireland

i will remember him for destruction of rural communities by allowing houses to be built willy nilly in random fields with no connection (footpaths) to the village (just drive round co. longford and roscommon) the main revenues of the last few years has been stamp duty (which should have been reformed in 98 or 99) but then we wouldnt have had rampant house price rises funded by a building boom on the back of tax breaks .

apart from northern ireland, his legacy, not much really most of the projects people list were planned before he cam ff managed to delay and overspend on these projects (only bringing in fixed price contracts when their mates had made their money)

rant over

i bought my house in 97 (it had been on the market for 2 years at the same price so no i dont have an axe to grind)

markpb

eoin5 wrote: »

As far as Berties legacy goes hell be forgotten pretty quickly after hes left.

I think it'll be a very long time before this country forgets or recovers from the mismanagement of the economy (in the long term), the health service, the education service and transport & infrastructure that Bertie presided over. He might not have been directly responsible for it all but he made no effort to fix them despite being in government for a huge amount of time and having an unprecedented amount of resources.

The people who commute for hours a day from villages surround by thousands of houses but no facilities with no option of public transport, or the people who lie in trolleys for days or wait for months for operations will remember Berie long after he's gone.

themont85

I really hate when people say he was 'lucky' as if to take away from his achievments. Of course he was, we all get lucky and every leader needs some luck, but its what you do with it is whats improtant. Whats were Devs greatest achievments-Constitution/Effective full independence and keeping Ireland out of WW2. Could he have done it without cumman na gaedhael's pressuring of Britain in the Commonwealth to give every country recognition and to the Statute of Westminister(Commonwealth countries could repeal Westminister laws), not half as easy as he did. Again Lemass, he was 'lucky' to have Whitiker at the time or CJH for the bravery of Alan Dukes Tallaght Strategy laying foundations to economic recovery as their enduring achievments.

I just read Blair's chief of staffs book about the Northern peace process and his reputation and Bertie comes away as piviotal in the agreement. And our economy, yes, it was going upwards but to discount his role in this is ridiculous. And as for the 'waste' of the past 10 years, undoubtably he failed in Health, but as for infastructure he was the main man of the Development Plans/Transport 21(greatest infastructure projects in the history of the state). In case we've all forgotten there was no motorways or luas before he was in power. Our infastructure deficit will take years to overcome and I believe he did an adequate job at this.

Obviousely the tribunal will temper his legacy, but as of now I believe he would be second to Lemass as the best Taoiseach we've had overall given the timeframe he was around.

gandalf

I suppose some of this would be considered his legacy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm_akheka9w

From here

Liam Byrne

Yup, nearly forgot how he eulogised a con-man and got us to pay for a state funeral for the pr**k