Israel demolishing Bedouin villages

wes

From the Guardian website:

Nomadic Bedouin fight to survive in the village which does not exist

I taught this bit was of particular interest:

"Discriminatory land and planning policies have made it virtually impossible for bedouin to build legally where they live and also exclude them from the state's development plans for the region," HRW said in the report.

It described "discriminatory, exclusionary and punitive policies" and noted that new farms and towns for Jewish Israelis were being built in the area. "The state appears intent on maximising its control over Negev land and increasing the Jewish population in the area for strategic, economic and demographic reasons," it said. In 2005, the Israeli government adopted a $3.6bn (about £1.8bn) plan to bring another 200,000 Israelis to the Negev to ease housing pressure elsewhere.

I have to ask why the EU, the USA (a nation that claims to be a force and justice in the world, while giving billions in military aid to a apartheid state of Israel.), haven't condemned this flagrant and disgusting example of racism? Why no threat of taking away military aid, until the Bedouin are treated fairly and discrimination stopped against them in general? The sheer hypocrisy here is astounding.

It should also be noted that these people, aren't firing rockets at Israel, or suicide bombing Israel. There crime is that they were born the wrong race and are being punished for it.

Also, something else to note, is that Israel is itself engaged in land grabs in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and quite frankly its really a bit much for them to claim that the Bedouin are engaged in land grabs (the Bedouins were there before Zionist took over Palestine and founded Israel in 1948) and some how the Bedouin are the ones stealing land? Which is pretty absurd claim coming from Israel, which steals land as a matter of policy.

Le Burp

Cough B**sh*t typical anti-israel crap... read between the lines maybe you should go and post on a Islamic Extremist site where you belong.

bobbyjoe

Le Burp wrote: »

Cough B**sh*t typical anti-israel crap... read between the lines maybe you should go and post on a Islamic Extremist site where you belong.

Maybe you should post an opinion or a rebuttal or something?

bartholomewbinn

Le Burp wrote: »

Cough B**sh*t typical anti-israel crap... read between the lines maybe you should go and post on a Islamic Extremist site where you belong.

Why are you coughing? Are you ill?

wes

Le Burp wrote: »

Cough B**sh*t typical anti-israel crap... read between the lines maybe you should go and post on a Islamic Extremist site where you belong.

Care to refute what is happening to the Bedouin? Is there any justification for the destruction of there homes? The Bedouin are citizens of Israel and are clearly receiving unfair treatment at the hands of the state, due to there race.

McArmalite

wes wrote: »

From the Guardian website:

Nomadic Bedouin fight to survive in the village which does not exist

I taught this bit was of particular interest:

I have to ask why the EU, the USA (a nation that claims to be a force and justice in the world, while giving billions in military aid to a apartheid state of Israel.), haven't condemned this flagrant and disgusting example of racism? Why no threat of taking away military aid, until the Bedouin are treated fairly and discrimination stopped against them in general? The sheer hypocrisy here is astounding.

It should also be noted that these people, aren't firing rockets at Israel, or suicide bombing Israel. There crime is that they were born the wrong race and are being punished for it.

Also, something else to note, is that Israel is itself engaged in land grabs in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and quite frankly its really a bit much for them to claim that the Bedouin are engaged in land grabs (the Bedouins were there before Zionist took over Palestine and founded Israel in 1948) and some how the Bedouin are the ones stealing land? Which is pretty absurd claim coming from Israel, which steals land as a matter of policy.

Couldn't agree more with you. Make no mistake about it, the Isreali state/Zionism is nothing other than a nakedly racist philosophy which was created and is sustained by ethnic cleansing and mass murder, it has everything in common with Hitler's Lebensraum ("living space") policies of clearing large areas of Eastern Europe for a 'homeland' for the Aryan race etc. Well, don't mention the Yanks, ( Israel is the FIRST state of America ) the zionist state wouldn't survive for a few weeks without them and their billions of dollars. AS for the EU, it's laughable. I remember a few years ago when the fascist forces of the IDF invaded the West Bank and murdering several hundred Palestinians and destroying schools, hospitals, houses etc paid for by EU monye. And what was the responce of the EU ?? They would 'consider' urging people in the EU to not holiday in the zionist state. FFS, and then these are the people who talk about terrorism ??

Now for the reply from our zionist followers - Antisemitism, Anti Antisemitism, Anti Antisemitism, Anti Antisemitism etc, etc, :rolleyes:

Le Burp

They must be spreading the slurry early this year on one side Mcarmalite wannbe republican pro-plo and pro terrorist joined by wes a muslim who spouts anti-israeli dung day in day out....

Two of ye should get married...remember the muslim way boys are for fun women are for making babies...

I am from there and it is clear you both are pro-jihad pro-terrorist and should be removed from this country...

adios

Rossibaby

israel are the terrorists

i suppose invading lebanon and them defending themselves make them terrorists too ya??

ye are america's little play thing,the only country to vote consistently to keep americas embargo in place on cuba...i mean your 'country' is a joke and as it associates with the biggest terrorists in the world the usa,it doesnt exactly have the right and shouldnt have the arrogance to call palestinians terrorists.

hamas offered a deal teh otehr day,for both sides to stop killing civilians and only hit military targets.what was israels responce to this??''sure they attacked civilians last week''...what a utterly stupid responce to a possibly brilliant future deal.history will show israel and the usa for what they are.imperialism will nto be tolerated and i commend anyone who stands in defence of their people to fight it

McArmalite

Le Burp wrote: »

They must be spreading the slurry early this year on one side Mcarmalite wannbe republican pro-plo and pro terrorist joined by wes a muslim who spouts anti-israeli dung day in day out....

Two of ye should get married...remember the muslim way boys are for fun women are for making babies...

I am from there and it is clear you both are pro-jihad pro-terrorist and should be removed from this country...

adios

Typical racist/fascist comments from undoubtedly the most reviled state by the vast majority of ordinary people on the planet. Your worse than the South Africans were ever during apartheid - but guess who was the only state on the planet to sell the South Africans weapons - poor little Israel ofcourse. And then their the ones who talk about terrorism ? I suppose the Irish are a bunch of dirty, thick, drunken sub humans also. And then the zionists and their apologists claim that they and poor little Israel are the ones discriminated against ??

Could the mods remove this fascist rubbish.

wes

Le Burp wrote: »

They must be spreading the slurry early this year on one side Mcarmalite wannbe republican pro-plo and pro terrorist joined by wes a muslim who spouts anti-israeli dung day in day out....

Two of ye should get married...remember the muslim way boys are for fun women are for making babies...

I am from there and it is clear you both are pro-jihad pro-terrorist and should be removed from this country...

adios

Care to address any points raised by the article? Why shouldn't the Bedouin have equal rights? Nothing you have said seems to address the topic at hand in anyway shape or form.

Can you prove that the Bedouin have engaged in terrorism against Israel? Btw, how is supporting equal rights for a minority in Israel (people who are citizens and not all Bedouin are Muslim, some are Druze if I remember correctly), pro-Jihad? Your assertions are rather ridiculous all round.

The Saint

wes wrote: »

Care to address any points raised by the article? Why shouldn't the Bedouin have equal rights? Nothing you have said seems to address the topic at hand in anyway shape or form.

Can you prove that the Bedouin have engaged in terrorism against Israel? Btw, how is supporting equal rights for a minority in Israel (people who are citizens and not all Bedouin are Muslim, some are Druze if I remember correctly), pro-Jihad? Your assertions are rather ridiculous all round.

I think there little point in engaging this person is any sort of dialogue. Smell of troll. If not then I'm worried for their mental well being.

gandalf

I assume you all have reported the offending posts :rolleyes:

The Saint

gandalf wrote: »

I assume you all have reported the offending posts :rolleyes:

Right. Forgot about that function. Done....

marcsignal

McArmalite wrote: »

Now for the reply from our zionist followers - Antisemitism, Anti Antisemitism, Anti Antisemitism, Anti Antisemitism etc, etc, :rolleyes:

I agree McAramalite, woe betide anyone who criticizes Israel. I find the old Anti-Semitism card tedious at this stage. It's like claiming that Native Americans fought European Settlers because of Anti-Whitism or Anti-Europeanism, as opposed to Fear of Dispossession.

Imagine, as a result of the troubles, if the British Army invaded and occupied Cavan or Monaghan in the 80's , removed the local people, and settled northern Protestants, or English people there.

The last time I checked, it was illegal under international law to settle part of your country's population in lands conquered during war.

Chunky Monkey

wes wrote: »

I have to ask why the EU, the USA (a nation that claims to be a force and justice in the world, while giving billions in military aid to a apartheid state of Israel.), haven't condemned this flagrant and disgusting example of racism? Why no threat of taking away military aid, until the Bedouin are treated fairly and discrimination stopped against them in general? The sheer hypocrisy here is astounding.

I'd like to know why the EU aren't saying anything either. Regarding the US, well as usual they'll have their own agenda, a freelance journalist might uncover the truth in ten years time and still be slated as 'sensationalist' in twenty.

wes

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

I'd like to know why the EU aren't saying anything either. Regarding the US, well as usual they'll have their own agenda, a freelance journalist might uncover the truth in ten years time and still be slated as 'sensationalist' in twenty.

I think the EU, could have an effect, which is why this annoys me quite a bit. This issue, should be a lot easier to sort than the main Israel/Palestine conflict. Its basically a simple issue of treating the Bedouin fairly and according equal rights. It would also benefit Israel, as it would show they are a lot more reasonable.

Suff

You Won't hear anything from the EU, IMHO this is due to the fact that anti-semitism (card) have been waved alot by Israel and its supportes within the EU in order to halt any "negative" statments issued to the zionist state.
Remember when Merkel (Germany's PM) visited Israel last month..she stated that Germany will never forget what it did to the Jews and will always try to protect and support Israel. Ok fair enough the Nazies commited horrobles atrocities to the Jews but I don't think today's Germany should be still paying for that! to me it sounds like Germany: "Israel you should stop buliding settelments on the WestBank" Israeli response "Remember the holocaust?!!! " this also occurs when dealing with Spain.
The British Mandate for Palestine (1917 - 1948), helped seed and plaint the Zionist state, the British left after 31 years of occupation due to the increasing violence from a number of Secret Jewish Military Organizations such as Haganah, Stern, Irgun, Palmach and the Unit 101 (info on the groups)

To me it feels like the EU is always been reminded by Israel of how the Jews were treated,...this isn't a healthy relationship as I'm sure one day we will hear of simular statments coming from the palestiniens on how the "world" owes them to all these years of supporting Israel and its racial operations aginst the people of palastine.

Sesshoumaru

I think this thread is a good example of how the Israel/Palestinian conflict polarizes peoples opinions. A thread appears here on Boards about some injustice Israel is perpetuating on victims X Y Z and we get the regulars who post on these threads condemning Israel. But usually not too many comments from the much maligned supporters of Israel.

A thread appears condemning a rocket attack/suicide attack on Israel and we get a few messages of support for Israel from the regular Israel supporters and then almost nothing from the regular condemners of Israel.

Maybe a little hypocrisy from both sides? Maybe we could all just take a step back, take a few deeps breaths before posting in either type of thread? Just my little observation from using Boards.ie for a little while now

On this particular case I would say its fair to condemn the actions of Israel. I haven't the time to research this properly. But just from reading Wes post I think Israel should just leave these tribes people live as they want within the framework of the law. Before anyone gets too hot under the collar about this though. Just remember China has been doing far worse in Tibet and on a far grander scale for just as long. We don't hear much from anyone here about calls for condemnation of China? Not until very very recently anyway.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

On this particular case I would say its fair to condemn the actions of Israel. I haven't the time to research this properly. But just from reading Wes post I think Israel should just leave these tribes people live as they want within the framework of the law. Before anyone gets too hot under the collar about this though. Just remember China has been doing far worse in Tibet and on a far grander scale for just as long. We don't hear much from anyone here about calls for condemnation of China? Not until very very recently anyway.

Unless this stuff is in the news, no will really say anything. It isn't just China and Israel, doing this sort of thing. The reason the Israel/Palestine conflict tends to be discussed more, is that its on the news fairly regularly.

Tibet on the other hand, hasn't until recently received much media attention, until recently. Still there are other ethnic groups in China in similar situations to the Tibetans, the Inner Mongolians and the Ughurs, haven't received much attention in the media and we don't see many people mention them either consequently.

Also, we have to remember, Israel (and supporters) claim Israel is a Western style democracy in the ME, so when it often doesn't live up to that standard, it tends to get condemned worse than others.

Playboy

99% of the time Israels actions are indenfensible. They claim to be a progressive democratic nation .. their behaviour towards the Palestinians is closer to facism and ethnic cleansing.

Most people on this board dont support Palestinian groups who kill innocent Israeli citizens. They do support Palestinines right to an independent nation and want Israel to retreat behind its 1967 borders and stop its illegal settlements.

I dont think its a matter of supporting one side or another. Its a matter of being able to distinguish right from wrong. Everytime we have a discussion about Israel/Palestine we have the same people condeming the actions of Israel. We also have the same people popping up with straw man arguments and accusations of anti america and anti-semite. These same people dont ever want to discuss the issues at hand because it is blindingly obvious that Israel are in the wrong .. and the UN 90% of the time agrees.

We dont get get threads in here usually with people defending Hamas after a rocket attack or a suicide bomber. But .. we do get threads where people defend Israels bombing of civilians and there repeated illegal settling of the West Bank. But when challenged .. these same people cannot justify morally what Israel are doing.

meditraitor

Playboy wrote: »

99% of the time Israels actions are indenfensible. They claim to be a progressive democratic nation .. their behaviour towards the Palestinians is closer to facism and ethnic cleansing.

Most people on this board dont support Palestinian groups who kill innocent Israeli citizens. They do support Palestinines right to an independent nation and want Israel to retreat behind its 1967 borders and stop its illegal settlements.

I dont think its a matter of supporting one side or another. Its a matter of being able to distinguish right from wrong. Everytime we have a discussion about Israel/Palestine we have the same people condeming the actions of Israel. We also have the same people popping up with straw man arguments and accusations of anti america and anti-semite. These same people dont ever want to discuss the issues at hand because it is blindingly obvious that Israel are in the wrong .. and the UN 90% of the time agrees.

We dont get get threads in here usually with people defending Hamas after a rocket attack or a suicide bomber. But .. we do get threads where people defend Israels bombing of civilians and there repeated illegal settling of the West Bank. But when challenged .. these same people cannot justify morally what Israel are doing.

Excellent post +1

KyussBishop

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Maybe a little hypocrisy from both sides? Maybe we could all just take a step back, take a few deeps breaths before posting in either type of thread? Just my little observation from using Boards.ie for a little while now

Not commenting on the actions of Hamas (or on other injustices around the world) does not make a person a hypocrite if they decide to criticize the actions of Israel.
I'd imagine most people implicitly condemn the actions of Hamas, without having to mention it.

It would only be hypocrisy if people criticized Israel whilst attempting to justify the actions of Hamas (or vice versa).

Manic Moran

As ever, the issue in the OP is not entirely cut and dry. I would imagine that there would be similar issues in Ireland if a group of Travellers sat down one day, said "Sod it. We've had enough of this travelling lifestyle. We'll settle down here on this spot of land (though we don't own it) and build a little hamlet." I think anyone from An Board Pleanala through the county council would have something to say on the issue.

Note how there is territorial disupute between the bedouin. The group focused on in the article thought they had bought land somewhere else, only to discover that a different tribe had laid claim to it, and they were kicked back out again. Few have title to anywhere. This all strikes me as being a bit more complex than simply "Israel beating down on the little guy again"

NTM

bobbyjoe

Manic Moran wrote: »

As ever, the issue in the OP is not entirely cut and dry. I would imagine that there would be similar issues in Ireland if a group of Travellers sat down one day, said "Sod it. We've had enough of this travelling lifestyle. We'll settle down here on this spot of land (though we don't own it) and build a little hamlet." I think anyone from An Board Pleanala through the county council would have something to say on the issue.

Note how there is territorial disupute between the bedouin. The group focused on in the article thought they had bought land somewhere else, only to discover that a different tribe had laid claim to it, and they were kicked back out again. Few have title to anywhere. This all strikes me as being a bit more complex than simply "Israel beating down on the little guy again"

NTM

If travellers or Pat Kenny use land for long enough they have rights to it these guys have been there for generations.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

As ever, the issue in the OP is not entirely cut and dry. I would imagine that there would be similar issues in Ireland if a group of Travellers sat down one day, said "Sod it. We've had enough of this travelling lifestyle. We'll settle down here on this spot of land (though we don't own it) and build a little hamlet." I think anyone from An Board Pleanala through the county council would have something to say on the issue.

Note how there is territorial disupute between the bedouin. The group focused on in the article thought they had bought land somewhere else, only to discover that a different tribe had laid claim to it, and they were kicked back out again. Few have title to anywhere. This all strikes me as being a bit more complex than simply "Israel beating down on the little guy again"

NTM

The state of Israel, allows its Jewish citizens to set up shop anywhere in the West Bank/East Jerusalem and provide protection and amenities etc. Why are the Bedouin not afforded the same right within the state of Israel?

Also, if you read the entire article linked, you will see that the places that Israel is offering to expel the Bedouin to, are not up to the same standard, as the settlements it provides to it Jewish citizens. In fact there basically ghetto's. Why does Israel not treat the Bedouin the same as its Jewish citizen once again?

So, really anyway you look at it Israel is in the wrong. What there doing is a simple matter of racism towards the Bedouin. The fact that Zionist settlements of far higher quality are being built in the same area is a pretty clear illustration of Israel utter contempt for the Bedouin.

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

The state of Israel, allows its Jewish citizens to set up shop anywhere in the West Bank/East Jerusalem and provide protection and amenities etc. Why are the Bedouin not afforded the same right within the state of Israel?

Also, if you read the entire article linked, you will see that the places that Israel is offering to expel the Bedouin to, are not up to the same standard, as the settlements it provides to it Jewish citizens. In fact there basically ghetto's. Why does Israel not treat the Bedouin the same as its Jewish citizen once again?

So, really anyway you look at it Israel is in the wrong. What there doing is a simple matter of racism towards the Bedouin. The fact that Zionist settlements of far higher quality are being built in the same area is a pretty clear illustration of Israel utter contempt for the Bedouin.

Explain me this how is it that the Israelis are being labelled the facists etc... And Hamas and other groups openly opress their own people,restrict the freedom to speech, kill christians,send suicide bombers into israeli to kill innocent civilians not soliders,fire rockets at civilian area's and murder innocent civilians on both sides.

Also an article from the The Guardian is not fact and has being now to over exaggerate the facts on several occasions like most ant-israel western media.

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

This whole thread is one sided and racist to the bone as it seems okay to be anti israeli but if you are anti terrorist you are shot down, I think the people running this site need to look at the indymedia cronnies here and the odd smattering of stormfront posters !

bobbyjoe

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Explain me this how is it that the Israelis are being labelled the facists etc... And Hamas and other groups openly opress their own people,restrict the freedom to speech, kill christians,send suicide bombers into israeli to kill innocent civilians not soliders,fire rockets at civilian area's and murder innocent civilians on both sides.

Also an article from the The Guardian is not fact and has being now to over exaggerate the facts on several occasions like most ant-israel western media.

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

This whole thread is one sided and racist to the bone as it seems okay to be anti israeli but if you are anti terrorist you are shot down, I think the people running this site need to look at the indymedia cronnies here and the odd smattering of stormfront posters !

Why don't you quote the racist comments made?

Any critisism of Israel is portrayed as anti-semetic. Also critisism of Israel does not mean one supports Hamas etc.

meditraitor

Nathan Jones wrote: »

This whole thread is one sided and racist to the bone as it seems okay to be anti israeli but if you are anti terrorist you are shot down,!

This is the same thing brother

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Explain me this how is it that the Israelis are being labelled the facists etc... And Hamas and other groups openly opress their own people,restrict the freedom to speech, kill christians,send suicide bombers into israeli to kill innocent civilians not soliders,fire rockets at civilian area's and murder innocent civilians on both sides.

So you have proof that the Bedouin are are doing all the thing you have mentioned above? Last I checked the Bedouin are not doing any of the stuff you mentioned above, no suicided bombing, no rockets firing into Israel etc. The Bedouin are citizens of Israel and simply enough are not being accorded equal rights. How is this the fault of Hamas?

Or is this another straw man that we have all come to know and love from the Zionist apologist camp.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also an article from the The Guardian is not fact and has being now to over exaggerate the facts on several occasions like most ant-israel western media.

Western media give Israel a pretty fair shake most of the time. Its just that Israel has a habit of doing pretty horrible things, while claiming to be a democratic western style state.

Anyway, the Guardian article got its information from the Human Rights Watch report.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

Wow, an accusation of Anti-semitism. The odd thing is that the Bedouin are semitic as well, so people supporting equal rights for them can hardly be anti-semitic.

If there is any racism here, its Israel treatment of its Bedouin citizens. Why do you ignore the racism direct against them by the state of Israel?

Nathan Jones wrote: »

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

How are the action of Hamas the fault of the Bedouin? Another ridiculous straw man.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

This whole thread is one sided and racist to the bone as it seems okay to be anti israeli but if you are anti terrorist you are shot down, I think the people running this site need to look at the indymedia cronnies here and the odd smattering of stormfront posters !

Can you provide any example of terrorism by the Bedouin? Why do you ignore the racism directed against them by the state of Israel? What does the actions of Hamas have to do with the Bedouin? How is being anti-equal rights for the Bedouin equal to anti-terrorist? Wouldn't being against equal rights for the Bedouin be racist? Isn't equating Hamas to the Bedouin also racist (the only connection between the 2 being race)?

serfboard

I am no defender of Israel, but tbh no-one in the Middle East gives a sh1t about the Bedouin. Just witness the practice of Egyptians in the Sinai building tourist resorts on Bedouin land and then bringing in Arabs from Cairo and other Egyptian cities to work there, reducing the Bedouins to the role of trinket-sellers.

wes

serfboard wrote: »

I am no defender of Israel, but tbh no-one in the Middle East gives a sh1t about the Bedouin. Just witness the practice of Egyptians in the Sinai building tourist resorts on Bedouin land and then bringing in Arabs from Cairo and other Egyptian cities to work there, reducing the Bedouins to the role of trinket-sellers.

True enough.

However, none of those states claim to be Modern Western style democracies. So seeing as Israel claims this (as well as its apologists), I am judging Israel by those standards.

To be fair, almost without exception most ME states are pretty big mess and have horrible governments. However, almost no one calls these states democratic or progressive, only 1 state has that strange honour.

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

So you have proof that the Bedouin are are doing all the thing you have mentioned above? Last I checked the Bedouin are not doing any of the stuff you mentioned above, no suicided bombing, no rockets firing into Israel etc. The Bedouin are citizens of Israel and simply enough are not being accorded equal rights. How is this the fault of Hamas?

Or is this another straw man that we have all come to know and love from the Zionist apologist camp.



Western media give Israel a pretty fair shake most of the time. Its just that Israel has a habit of doing pretty horrible things, while claiming to be a democratic western style state.

Anyway, the Guardian article got its information from the Human Rights Watch report.



Wow, an accusation of Anti-semitism. The odd thing is that the Bedouin are semitic as well, so people supporting equal rights for them can hardly be anti-semitic.

If there is any racism here, its Israel treatment of its Bedouin citizens. Why do you ignore the racism direct against them by the state of Israel?



How are the action of Hamas the fault of the Bedouin? Another ridiculous straw man.



Can you provide any example of terrorism by the Bedouin? Why do you ignore the racism directed against them by the state of Israel? What does the actions of Hamas have to do with the Bedouin? How is being anti-equal rights for the Bedouin equal to anti-terrorist? Wouldn't being against equal rights for the Bedouin be racist? Isn't equating Hamas to the Bedouin also racist (the only connection between the 2 being race)?

After your finished your rant did you see the term " This is off topic " I was'nt refering to the bedouins I was refering to the constant anti Israel vitrol on this thread......

As for the humans rights watch PMSL, another liberal left wing publisher of false facts, I am not saying it is not happening but the likes of amensty etc are extremely left wing anti semtic anti america anti israeli groups... its a pity you dont point anywhere to ethnic cleansing of christians in iraq,iran,pakistan...Turkish oppression of Kurds...it seems that if the israelis do anything they are zoomed in on because they are simply Jews surrounded by millions of their enemies who would like to see every jew dead.

Also if I am a Zionist have you a problem with it, if so you are no better than the apparent oppressors you are talking about !

Playboy

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Explain me this how is it that the Israelis are being labelled the facists etc... And Hamas and other groups openly opress their own people,restrict the freedom to speech, kill christians,send suicide bombers into israeli to kill innocent civilians not soliders,fire rockets at civilian area's and murder innocent civilians on both sides.

Also an article from the The Guardian is not fact and has being now to over exaggerate the facts on several occasions like most ant-israel western media.

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

This whole thread is one sided and racist to the bone as it seems okay to be anti israeli but if you are anti terrorist you are shot down, I think the people running this site need to look at the indymedia cronnies here and the odd smattering of stormfront posters !

Refer to my previous post. When people have just cause to criticise Israel .. people like yourself come out of the woodwork and sling around the word anti semetic and drag up straw men and knock them down. Why do you do this? God Knows .. either you are so biased that you cant think objectively or else you have some kind reasoning problem that prevents you from understanding evidence.

No one here is championing Hamas .. Hamas are a understandable reaction to the state of Israel and the US. Hate breeds hate .. If Israel had treated the Palestinians with more respect then Hamas wouldnt have the support it has or it might not even exist. Anyway Hamas serve a useful tool for Israel .. it helps them justify the ethnic cleansing and illegal settlements.

No one here imo is anti semitic. They have a problem with Israel .. not Jews. The two are different things. Believe it or not but many Jews feel negatively about Israel too .. do a google. So instead of telling us that we are unaware of our subconcious anti-semitism (which comes from where exactly?) .. why dont you discuss the political issues in the region .. maybe then with some real information you will be persuaded to change your mind. Or who knows maybe you have insight and knowledge that will blow everyone here away and give us a fresh perspective on the issue.

Nathan Jones

Playboy wrote: »

Refer to my previous post. When people have just cause to criticise Israel .. people like yourself come out of the woodwork and sling around the word anti semetic and drag up straw men and knock them down. Why do you do this? God Knows .. either you are so biased that you cant think objectively or else you have some kind reasoning problem that prevents you from understanding evidence.

No one here is championing Hamas .. Hamas are a understandable reaction to the state of Israel and the US. Hate breeds hate .. If Israel had treated the Palestinians with more respect then Hamas wouldnt have the support it has or it might not even exist. Anyway Hamas serve a useful tool for Israel .. it helps them justify the ethnic cleansing and illegal settlements.

No one here imo is anti semitic. They have a problem with Israel .. not Jews. The two are different things. Believe it or not but many Jews feel negatively about Israel too .. do a google. So instead of telling us that we are unaware of our subconcious anti-semitism (which comes from where exactly?) .. why dont you discuss the political issues in the region .. maybe then with some real information you will be persuaded to change your mind. Or who knows maybe you have insight and knowledge that will blow everyone here away and give us a fresh perspective on the issue.

After doing 18 tours of duty to Lebanon I can clearly say I am well informed of the situation there and my opinion is formed from seeing both sides of which now I lean towards one for many reasons.

Israel if you did not know setup Hamas to counter the PLO, also Israel does not ethnically cleanse unlike the Syrians,Egyptians and Jordanians but especially the first do your own google on that.

Also your saying hate breeds hate, most Israelis want a normal life but the bully boys from the territories want war and hence the reaction of Israel.. This reaction would be the same from any nation weither it be Switzerland or wherever so dont condem a nation for reacting. !

oscarBravo

Polite note: if you can't discuss the issue without calling other posters names (whether or not you single out individuals), don't bother posting.

Playboy

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also if I am a Zionist have you a problem with it, if so you are no better than the apparent oppressors you are talking about !

There is a difference between disagreeing with someone and opressing them. I disagree with/dont like Nazi's .. Im not opressing them. I disagree with/dont like Zionists .. Im not opressing them. I have valid reasons for my views regarding both ideologies.

Zionists are openly racist and opressive. I think there would be something wrong with me/us if we didnt have a problem with it. Just like there would be something wrong with me if I didnt have a problem with someone who is anti-semetic.

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

After your finished your rant did you see the term " This is off topic " I was'nt refering to the bedouins I was refering to the constant anti Israel vitrol on this thread......

You were trying to excuse Israel actions with your rant. So I ignored your disclaimer.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

As for the humans rights watch PMSL, another liberal left wing publisher of false facts, I am not saying it is not happening but the likes of amensty etc are extremely left wing anti semtic anti america anti israeli groups... its a pity you dont point anywhere to ethnic cleansing of christians in iraq,iran,pakistan...Turkish oppression of Kurds...it seems that if the israelis do anything they are zoomed in on because they are simply Jews surrounded by millions of their enemies who would like to see every jew dead.

The Human rights groups have similar reports on all the countries you have mentioned. So what your saying here is nonsense.

Also, just because I am not in this thread (a thread about Israel), condemning other nations, doesn't mean I support them. Also, in other threads I have expressed my problems with some of the countries you have mentioned. So again a pointless straw man.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also if I am a Zionist have you a problem with it, if so you are no better than the apparent oppressors you are talking about !

I never called you a Zionist. I certainly saw you post as making excuse for Israel (hence the "Zionist apologist camp" comment).

How exactly could I be as bad as a country that is demolishing peoples homes btw? Personally, I have never demolished another persons home for any reason, so your comparison is inaccurate hyperbole.

edanto

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Although the above is off topic the amount of anti israeli vitrol here is actually racists and proving that most posters here are anti semtic weither the know it or not...

Since you've just joined, allow me to point out the most repeated thing here in Israel threads. Having an opinion that the actions of the Israeli state apparatus are unjust is not anti-Israeli, racist or anti-semetic. In the same way that disagreeing with a decision of the Irish Minister of Health is not anti-Irish. Merely an opinion or a judgement, that anyone is entitled to make or disagree with. Using arguments.

Don't try and dismiss fact-based criticism of the Isralei government by painting it as racism.

So explain to me when the Israelis send truck loads of free supplies into the gaza strip and then when the final one goes in hamas attacks ??? Hypocrasy at its worst...

No, in fact hypocrisy at it's worst is when the Israeli regime refuses to abide by the same conditions it demands of the Palestinians. That is off-topic in this thread, but here is a link for you to read (scroll down to 'Conditions') http://www.newint.org/columns/essays/2007/10/01/essay/

As far as the Bedouins go, you said that the Guardian article was inaccurate. In what respect, and on what facts, is it inaccurate? Can you support this with some sources?

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Israel if you did not know setup Hamas to counter the PLO, also Israel does not ethnically cleanse unlike the Syrians,Egyptians and Jordanians but especially the first do your own google on that.

Israel is a country that exists due to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hence, all the refugee's.

Playboy

Nathan Jones wrote: »

After doing 18 tours of duty to Lebanon I can clearly say I am well informed of the situation there and my opinion is formed from seeing both sides of which now I lean towards one for many reasons.

Israel if you did not know setup Hamas to counter the PLO, also Israel does not ethnically cleanse unlike the Syrians,Egyptians and Jordanians but especially the first do your own google on that.

Also your saying hate breeds hate, most Israelis want a normal life but the bully boys from the territories want war and hence the reaction of Israel.. This reaction would be the same from any nation weither it be Switzerland or wherever so dont condem a nation for reacting. !

Israel does not ethnically cleanse .. are you serious? Can you tell me why Palestine barely exists anymore and is getting smaller every day? Israel has been ethnically cleansing since Zionism formed as an idea in Herzl's mind.

You seem to like your strawmen. Nobody here is is saying a Mubarak controlled Egypt (which is kept in place thanks to that champion of democracy .. the USA) is a great regime. It is a corrupt dictatorship .. and it does horrible things like the other countries you have mentioned. The problem is is that Israel tries to paint itself as something else .. a progressive western democracy.

And no .. the reaction would not be the same from any country. Actually if you want to turn it around the reaction of the Palestinians to Zionism and Israel is the reaction that every country and its neighbours would have. Try and imagine if the Zionists decided to take a large chunk of Ireland for themselves .. what would you think the reaction would be. Consider the reaction the Irish have had to our neighbours for the last 800 years.

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

Israel is a country that exists due to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hence, all the refugee's.

Tell me what exactly a Palestinian is please as Yasser Arafat was in fact from Tunis and the term Palestinian can be used by anyone, people from Gaza hold Egyptian passports and in Judea and Samaria they hold Jordanian ones.

Also the term Palestinian came around after 1967 and these refugee camps you talk about again tell me more as I am being in them and lived in them, they are actual towns and cities like the ones in Lebanon...

As for Zionists being racists maybe some are but if they had schools they would'nt be preaching hatred to children as they do in the territories which I have personally witnessed and found disgusting..

Oh and for the record I am not a Zionist but I do agree with their point of view and for one I believe they are very moderate to that of the surrounding arab nations including Saudi who preach hatred on an industrial level.

Nathan Jones

Playboy wrote: »

Israel does not ethnically cleanse .. are you serious? Can you tell me why Palestine barely exists anymore and is getting smaller every day? Israel has been ethnically cleansing since Zionism formed as an idea in Herzl's mind.

You seem to like your strawmen. Nobody here is is saying a Mubarak controlled Egypt (which is kept in place thanks to that champion of democracy .. the USA) is a great regime. It is a corrupt dictatorship .. and it does horrible things like the other countries you have mentioned. The problem is is that Israel tries to paint itself as something else .. a progressive western democracy.

And no .. the reaction would not be the same from any country. Actually if you want to turn it around the reaction of the Palestinians to Zionism and Israel is the reaction that every country and its neighbours would have. Try and imagine if the Zionists decided to take a large chunk of Ireland for themselves .. what would you think the reaction would be. Consider the reaction the Irish have had to our neighbours for the last 800 years.

Palestine where is that as it does not exist I think you might refer to it as the state of Israel and the surrounding PA to be correct.

I dont see any nation in the UN called Palestine ??

meditraitor

Nathan Jones wrote: »

witnessed and found disgusting..

Oh and for the record I am not a Zionist but I do agree with their point of view and for one I believe they are very moderate to that of the surrounding arab nations including Saudi who preach hatred on an industrial level.

was this a typo ?
If not then you are a zionist

Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews.

So not being a Jew in Isreal/Palestine(regions controlled by the isreali state) can be very uncomfortable

Its a racist ideology in all but spelling

aimsir_te

Seems that the Middle East is one of the Wests favourite political discussions and is really only a front for anti-americanism on one side and anti-Islam on the other. If people were a little more honest about things they stop pretending to care about israel/palestine!

purple'n'gold

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Palestine where is that as it does not exist I think you might refer to it as the state of Israel and the surrounding PA to be correct.

I dont see any nation in the UN called Palestine ??

Prior to 1955 you would not find any nation called Ireland/ Eire in the UN. But we were here none the less.

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Tell me what exactly a Palestinian is please as Yasser Arafat was in fact from Tunis and the term Palestinian can be used by anyone, people from Gaza hold Egyptian passports and in Judea and Samaria they hold Jordanian ones.

Your actually denying the existence of Palestinians? Completely absurd assertion.

To give you an example, I was born in Ireland, but my parents are Sudhuns. Me being being an Irish citizen, doesn't change my ethnic group.

Arafat, came from a Palestinians family, him being born in Egypt doesn't make him any less of a Palestinian.

I'll give you the name of a book written by a Palestinian which refutes this ridiculous assertion a little later, as I don't have it handy right now.

Of course this ridiculous example doesn't excuse ethnic cleansing, but is another ridiculous straw man. The simple fact of the matter is that people who call them Palestinians were driven out of Palestine by Zionists.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Also the term Palestinian came around after 1967 and these refugee camps you talk about again tell me more as I am being in them and lived in them, they are actual towns and cities like the ones in Lebanon...

The UN accords them refugee status.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

As for Zionists being racists maybe some are but if they had schools they would'nt be preaching hatred to children as they do in the territories which I have personally witnessed and found disgusting..

Zionism is racism. Look at the treatment of the Bedouins for example. Also, others actions does not excuse Zionism from being racist.

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Oh and for the record I am not a Zionist but I do agree with their point of view and for one I believe they are very moderate to that of the surrounding arab nations including Saudi who preach hatred on an industrial level.

Again, how does the actions of other excuse Israel?

Israel, unlike her neighbors claims to be a Western style democracy, and as can be seen from this thread doesn't live up to that at all, but is in fact an apartheid state.

Nathan Jones

meditraitor wrote: »

was this a typo ?
If not then you are a zionist

Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews.

So not being a Jew in Isreal/Palestine(regions controlled by the isreali state) can be very uncomfortable

Its a racist ideology in all but spelling

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

bobbyjoe

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

Thats a novel solution pretend it doesn't exist!!

wes

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

Why were so many Palestinians ethnic cleansed then and why are so many still not allowed there right to return.

Also, the Palestinian mandate existed before 1948, it was what the UN partitioned. Its absurd you are pretending it didn't exist, since you refer to it partition.

Nathan Jones

wes wrote: »

Your actually denying the existence of Palestinians? Completely absurd assertion.

To give you an example, I was born in Ireland, but my parents are Sudhuns. Me being being an Irish citizen, doesn't change my ethnic group.

Arafat, came from a Palestinians family, him being born in Egypt doesn't make him any less of a Palestinian.

I'll give you the name of a book written by a Christian Palestinian which refutes this ridiculous assertion a little later, as I don't have it handy right now.

Of course this ridiculous example doesn't excuse ethnic cleansing, but is another ridiculous straw man. The simple fact of the matter is that people who call them Palestinians were driven out of Palestine by Zionists.



The UN accords them refugee status.



Zionism is racism. Look at the treatment of the Bedouins for example. Also, others actions does not excuse Zionism from being racist.



Again, how does the actions of other excuse Israel?

Israel, unlike her neighbors claims to be a Western style democracy, and as can be seen from this thread doesn't live up to that at all, but is in fact an apartheid state.

heres one for you at least Israel is a democracy unlike every single arab state which is not and every single one oppresses it's people...

If you are Irish as you claim where is your primary alligance apart from family, Islam or the state of Ireland ?

Yasser Arafat was in fact a terrorist and also claimed to be born in Jerusalem which was proven to be a lie and also he and his cronnies syphoned of billions of EU and US money, oh he was a great leader like Pol Pot and Saddam..pull the other one.

Obviously you yourself are racist as you are clearly anti - Israel and underneath it all must have be bread hatred as a child, its not your fault !

purple'n'gold

Nathan Jones wrote: »

Again Palestine wheres that oh that was the state partitoned in 1948 by decree of the UN and the Arab nations immediately tried to destroy a democratic country immediately, you do really believe your own lies, just a question have you ever being to Israel/The PA or the surrounding countries ?

Why are you using such atrocious grammar? And you keep banging on about a democratic state. Democratic states do not practise apartheid.