Immigration offers no benefits - Offical Report!

FreedomJoe

Immigration is of no benefit to the economy and should be capped, according to a UK parliamentary report.

An inquiry by the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee concluded that the influx of migrants had led to "little or no impact" on economic well-being.

It also warned that immigration could force house prices up bya further 10% over the next 20 years, and would put too much strain on public services like hospitals.

The report also stated that schools would suffer - with many non English speaking pupils.

And it said the arrival of so many immigrants were preventing some British people including the young from finding jobs.

Ireland has similar circumstances to the UK, and you would have to agree that if these disadvantages are effecting the UK then they will be effecting us here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7322825.stm

gurramok

Ireland is different

Sustainable immigration of highly qualified humans is good, the unsustainable of which what Ireland has had since '04 is bad.
Too many people let in such a short time has indeed put alot of strains on society's functions.

mike65

The dynamics of Irelands economy and population have been quite different to the UK as it happens, without the influx over the last 5 years this countrys GDP would have been significantly lower than it is. That does not mean the same will hold true forever of course. I imagine the inward migration has already been moderated by the slow down.

Mike.

bonkey

FreedomJoe wrote: »

Ireland has similar circumstances to the UK,

No, we don't....unless by "similar circumstances" you mean "speak the same language".

Kev_ps3

Immigration is of no benefit to the economy and should be capped, according to a UK parliamentary report.

I would agree. Immigration is getting out of control in this country. Far too many are coming into the country.

dsmythy

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Immigration is of no benefit to the economy and should be capped, according to a UK parliamentary report.

I would agree. Immigration is getting out of control in this country. Far too many are coming into the country.

Luckily at the moment immigration levels are falling. If they continue like this we won't need any caps. IF!

DadaKopf

Immigration is getting out of control in this country. Far too many are coming into the country.

Unlike the millions of Irish who flooded the cities of America, Australia, London, Buenos Aires, the list goes on.

It also warned that immigration could force house prices up bya further 10% over the next 20 years

If supply doesn't meet demand. Good policy decisions could avoid this.

and would put too much strain on public services like hospitals.

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

The report also stated that schools would suffer - with many non English speaking pupils.

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

And it said the arrival of so many immigrants were preventing some British people including the young from finding jobs.

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

You see the pattern? Immigration's not the problem - how else do you think the earth got covered in human beings? The problem is that Governments aren't making the right decisions on policy and funding. And some of these so-called facts are just incorrect.

The perception that immigrants are "teck'n ur jawbs'' are usually expressed by those who never went looking for the jobs immigrants are working in the first place. It's a fact that most immigrants with high-level qualifications and professional experience can't find work in their actual profession. Those whose jobs immigrants are taking are the most vulnerable and poor people in society, early-school leavers in particular. The problem isn't immigration, it's government policies that allow high levels of inequality and social exclusion to exist in the first place.

The impact of immigration on wages could easily be avoided with strong enforcement minimum wages, the establishment of full employee rights for part-time/flexi-time workers who do any labour within Ireland.

When will you racists learn that foreigners aren't the problem, it's small-minded, conservative, reactionary bigotry and despicable government policies that's the problem.

GuanYin

How do you take an article that clearly says Immigration is a small benefit and start a thread saying Immigration offers no benefits?

I can only assume your need to deceive and mislead is borne from the from the fact that you can't actually string an arguement together that will convince anyone.

bob2000

"When will you racists learn that foreigners aren't the problem, it's small-minded, conservative, reactionary bigotry and despicable government policies that's the problem. "

Just love the self-regarding smugness of the pc mafia.

So whats the gist - the government should come up with new policies on roads, hospitals, schools etc to accomodate more 'new irish', but we can't challenge the retarded mantra that any criticism of immigration is racist ?

Ireland has had the largest rate of immigration of any country in history over the past 10 years, but we're still racist right ?

Because the American government needed huge numbers of immigrants to take an entire continent from the native american indians, we should pursue the same policy even though it makes no sense for us? Even though once the US had enough immigrants they introduced a cap on new arrivals ?

"Immigration's not the problem - how else do you think the earth got covered in human beings?"
FFS - do you actually advocate an open border policy ?

mike65

But tell us what you think eh?

Mike.

Zambia

DadaKopf wrote: »

Unlike the millions of Irish who flooded the cities of America, Australia, London, Buenos Aires, the list goes on.

This old chestnut comes out every immigration debate. It still is true but the world was a different place back then.

DadaKopf wrote: »

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

Limits on immigration could be a good policy decision.

However I actually have to say I think a lot of what you are saying makes sense in light of the fact I believe we are discussing legal eastern european immigration.

So far I dont see any qualified Irish worker being un-jobbed by a Cheaper polish worker. In fact in my industry we would be in serious trouble without the immigrant work force. They are paid the same as the local lads and work the same hours.

What has to be addressed is the periphal issues as in un-taxed or lowly insured vehicles etc. If they live here they live by our rules.

ninty9er

I'd agree with Mike, Ireland is a totally different case. We now have over 2 million people employed, we didn't have a workforce that big 15 years ago and you expect me to believe in 2.4 children Ireland, that we could have provided that increase in the workforce. Gimme a break:rolleyes:

What Mike says is very correct, without the influx of the last number of years the economy would have stagnated, inflation would have run into double figures due to a severe workforce shortage and a lot of those people who immigrated do jobs that most working class Irish people wouldn't do anyway.


Ther are pros and cons, but the immigration experience has been incredibly beneficial in Ireland heretofore.

I will take the point that Irish people went to XYZ years ago and there are apparently 72 million "Irish people" abroad. Those Irish people worked to live and if they didn't do the first the second wasn't long expring! Immigrants have far to many rights to financial benefits, but that a whole differnet kettle of fish as the it varies by circumstance.

mike65

OMG I'm being quoted by FF!

Mike.

ninty9er

mike65 wrote: »

OMG I'm being quoted by FF!

Mike.

April Fools

only messing:D:D:D

I'm not the party you know...only about .00125%:pac:

gaf1983

bob2000 wrote: »

Ireland has had the largest rate of immigration of any country in history over the past 10 years, but we're still racist right ?

Stop plucking facts out of thin air. Qatar, UAE and Saudi Arabia all have far higher rates of immigration than Ireland.

bob2000

"Stop plucking facts out of thin air. Qatar, UAE and Saudi Arabia all have far higher rates of immigration than Ireland. "

You are not comparing like with like. Those countries issue short-term working visas, and, while workers from Europe are treated well, those from the 3rd world are treated appallingly. All of the power is held by the employer.

"The labor laws of Lebanon, like the laws of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE, categorically exclude migrant domestic workers from basic rights, such as a weekly day of rest, limits on work hours, paid holidays, and workers’ compensation. Immigration sponsorship laws restrict domestic workers’ ability to change employers, even in cases of abuse.

Sexual Abuse, Threats and Punishment
The report revealed the prevalence of sexual abuse by male members of the household, with threats if the women stop to others about this. This problem is accentuated by the fact that adultery and fornication are criminalized in these Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and the UAE, so rape victims may face the prospect of detention, prosecution and punishment if they cannot provide evidence of the rape.

The report finds that Saudi Arabia’s policy of requiring employers to approve exit visas for domestic workers before they leave the country effectively traps them and greatly increases the risk of abuse and forced labor. Saudi Arabia proposed an appendix to the labor law two years ago, but it has not yet been published and the government has not to date extended equal labor protections to domestic workers"


http://experiencingtheemirates.blogspot.com/2007/11/human-rights-unjust-labor-laws-leave.html

DadaKopf

Developing countries bear the brunt of migration - countries that can least afford to cope with the pressures it causes.

axer

DadaKopf wrote: »

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

Would be great if the country could manage to do this. Considering they fail at making good policys for everything else then I think we can safetly say immigration will most likely become problematic in this country or at least negate its benifits due to incompetent management of it.

bonkey

bob2000 wrote: »

So whats the gist - the government should come up with new policies on roads, hospitals, schools etc to accomodate more 'new irish', but we can't challenge the retarded mantra that any criticism of immigration is racist ?

No...its not that any criticism is racist. Its that there's a high probability that invalid criticism is based on racist or xenophobic grounds...sometimes misnamed as things like "nationalism".

Because the American government needed huge numbers of immigrants to take an entire continent from the native american indians, we should pursue the same policy even though it makes no sense for us? Even though once the US had enough immigrants they introduced a cap on new arrivals ?

Now we're getting somewhere.

You've claimed that America capped immigration once they "had enough". Thats fine.
The OP claimed that the British have found that recent immigration is of little benefit to them.

Both of you seem to then take these facts about other countries and want us to accept that immigration in Ireland is similarly in need of capping.

Why? Where is the evidence that we've reached some practical ceiling, as you both argue the British and Americans have.

More importantly...why do we see this pattern time after time...where evidence about other countries is supplied, with some sort of rider saying "and we're in the same boat"??? Its almost as though there's a difficulty finding the problems that are supposed to be manifest in Ireland, so we have to look to other countries who have them and then insist that we're in the same boat.

FFS - do you actually advocate an open border policy ?

Are you advocating that Ireland withdraw from the EU? If not, then whether you like it or nor, there are a few hundred million people to whom we most certainly do have an open border policy. Concerning those outside the EU, I think you'll find that we already have much tighter restrictions on their ability to freely enter or remain in the country than most end-to-immigration proponents care to admit.

DadaKopf

bob2000 wrote:

Just love the self-regarding smugness of the pc mafia.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but when I see a post by someone called FreedomJoe with a post-count of 8, having previous made a post about where to find information on Irish far-right parties, I'm going to assume they're racists.

People familiar with my posts in here will probably know I don't accuse people of 'racism' or throw insults unless there's reason for it. It's just not the way to do things, but sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade.

bob2000

"Are you advocating that Ireland withdraw from the EU?"

No, never argued that. You would have to be a moron to adopt that position. I am fully aware that we have duties towards our fellow Eu members, which we should fulfill. Ireland cannot exist without the EU.

My question about open borders concerned the statement :

"Immigration's not the problem - how else do you think the earth got covered in human beings?"
Which is something I would expect a 12 year old to come out with.

"why do we see this pattern time after time...where evidence about other countries is supplied, with some sort of rider saying "and we're in the same boat"
The argument that we should look around the world, observe the experience of other countries, and then ignore it because it somehow won't happen here is wishful thinking bordering on lunacy. Why will it be different here ? Economic stagnation gave this country one advantage - foresight, which we should ignore ?

Labour in the UK is finally accepting that immigration needs to be controlled, after years of denial. If you look at the message boards on the guardian (liberal, left) website, you will see the anger of many people at the current situation.

We have a choice regarding non-eu immigration. I think we should make an informed choice that will benefit our economy & society in the long run. We have seen an unsustainable rate of immigration over the past 10 years, being widely regarded as a soft touch. If it wasn't for McDowell having the balls to introduce the citizenship referendum, god knows where we'd be now.

Interesting that that referendum was slated by the usual suspects - but had the overwhelming support of the Irish people. Who according to the likes of Fintan O'Toole, must be (guess what) Racist.

axer

Exactly, the german ambassador in a speech a while back said that we are not learning from our neighbours with regards immigration and the failures and problems they experienced due to poor management and planning but somehow we seem to think we are different to all the countries around us.

Of course he got in trouble for that speech - I guess the Irish don't like to be told the harsh obvious truth especially from a (shock!!!) german.

oscarBravo

bob2000 wrote: »

We have a choice regarding non-eu immigration. I think we should make an informed choice that will benefit our economy & society in the long run. We have seen an unsustainable rate of immigration over the past 10 years, being widely regarded as a soft touch.

The bulk of immigration to this country has been from within the EU. I'm not aware of any unsustainable levels of non-EU immigration, but feel free to show otherwise.

Kev_ps3

DadaKopf wrote: »

Unlike the millions of Irish who flooded the cities of America, Australia, London, Buenos Aires, the list goes on.


If supply doesn't meet demand. Good policy decisions could avoid this.

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

Good policy decisions could avoid this.

You see the pattern? Immigration's not the problem - how else do you think the earth got covered in human beings? The problem is that Governments aren't making the right decisions on policy and funding. And some of these so-called facts are just incorrect.

The perception that immigrants are "teck'n ur jawbs'' are usually expressed by those who never went looking for the jobs immigrants are working in the first place. It's a fact that most immigrants with high-level qualifications and professional experience can't find work in their actual profession. Those whose jobs immigrants are taking are the most vulnerable and poor people in society, early-school leavers in particular. The problem isn't immigration, it's government policies that allow high levels of inequality and social exclusion to exist in the first place.

The impact of immigration on wages could easily be avoided with strong enforcement minimum wages, the establishment of full employee rights for part-time/flexi-time workers who do any labour within Ireland.

When will you racists learn that foreigners aren't the problem, it's small-minded, conservative, reactionary bigotry and despicable government policies that's the problem.

Typical liberal facist, question immigration and you call us racist.

djpbarry

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Immigration is of no benefit to the economy and should be capped, according to a UK parliamentary report.

I would agree. Immigration is getting out of control in this country.

I don't think the UK report included Ireland in it's findings, so I'm not sure what you're agreeing with. Besides, Liam Byrne MP, recently said that “there are obviously enormous economic benefits of immigration … There is a big positive impact on the economy which is worth about £6 billion”; the report in question did not contest this figure.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Far too many are coming into the country.

How many is too many? Considering there are far more Irish Diaspora around the world than there are immigrants in Ireland, would you also say that there are "too many" Irish emigrants?

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Typical liberal facist, question immigration and you call us racist.

Well you have offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your earlier assertion that "immigration is of no benefit to the economy". By "the economy", I would assume you mean the Irish economy. This opinion appears to be based entirely on your own emotion rather than any logical analysis.

Kev_ps3

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Typical liberal facist, question immigration and you call us racist.

These debates improve when words like 'racist' 'liberal' 'fascist' 'pinko' and 'pc' are taken out on both sides.

I think immigration is great, the best thing ever. All those fine looking Eastern European women coming over can only have a healthy impact on the gene pool. If we all made an effort we could condemn red curly hair and freckles to old John Hinde postcards.

bartholomewbinn

Deleted User wrote: »

These debates improve when words like 'racist' 'liberal' 'fascist' 'pinko' and 'pc' are taken out on both sides.

I think immigration is great, the best thing ever. All those fine looking Eastern European women coming over can only have a healthy impact on the gene pool. If we all made an effort we could condemn red curly hair and freckles to old John Hinde postcards.

Couldn’t agree with you more, a big influx of gorgeous Polish, Estonian and Chezh women will enhance our gene pool enormously.

daithicarr

nothing wrong with red hair and freckles, seen plenty of beautiful women with red hair and freckles.

The level of immigration from outside the European union in tiny, most the immigrants come from the EU, and they play a vital role in our economy, we should be grateful they came other wise we would have stagnated. Our birth rate has dropped below natural replacement levels. With out immigration our economy will soon stagnate and decline.

I personally think that citizen ship referendum was a disgrace, they played on peoples unfounded fears of people coming here and sponging off our system.

However if a government did want to reduce immigration, they should tackle the rout problem. They can never completely stop people from coming.
If the EU as a whole were to help alleviate some of the problems in the world which lead people to leave there homes, it would be much more effective than trying to stop people from entering. If people are desperate enough they will find a way.

But I am curious, what to the people who are opposed to immigration think we should do if we did manage to halt immigration? No country in the EU is replacing its population naturally. With no immigration , many countries population would collapse in 50 years.
In Ireland the birth rate is slightly higher than most European country’s, 1.9 children are currently born per women in Ireland, to keep a steady population 2.1 is needed , the European union average is 1.5 , some country’s like Italy and Spain have only 1.29 children per women. Without immigration, there will be too many old people and too few young to look after them and pay for them in 50 years time. How could we cope with that?

daithicarr

daithicarr wrote: »

nothing wrong with red hair and freckles, seen plenty of beautiful women with red hair and freckles.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Tongue in cheek. Know a very pleasant and pretty girl with the biggest head of red hair ever...and she's a Slovak.

djpbarry

daithicarr wrote: »

The level of immigration from outside the European union in tiny...

Immigrants from outside the EU are in the minority, yes, but their numbers are significant. Just under 20% of immigrants in Ireland are from either Africa or Asia, just under 6.5% are from America, Australia or New Zealand, while just under 6% hail from non-EU European countries (according to the 2006 census).

bonkey

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Typical liberal facist, question immigration and you call us racist.

I genuinely don't understand comments like this, nor the reasoning that leads people to make them.

If you want criticise how someone approaches the issue, then don't use the same techniques whilst making that point.

You're name-calling whilst trying to complain about name-calling. How does that work?

daithicarr

djpbarry wrote: »

Immigrants from outside the EU are in the minority, yes, but their numbers are significant. Just under 20% of immigrants in Ireland are from either Africa or Asia, just under 6.5% are from America, Australia or New Zealand, while just under 6% hail from non-EU European countries (according to the 2006 census).

Their numbers arent really that significant , 35,000 Africans. 46,000 Asians.
about 0.8% and 1.1 % of the population each or for a total of just under 2% of the entire population hailing from all of Asia and Africa. very small numbers.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm

bartholomewbinn

"I personally think that citizen ship referendum was a disgrace, they played on peoples unfounded fears of people coming here and sponging off our system."


The passing of this referendum means that people born in Ireland will have a constitutional right to be an Irish citizen only if, at the time of their birth, one of their parents was an Irish citizen. What’s the problem with that? We as a nation are perfectly entitled to decide the criteria for Irish citizenship. The referendum was passed by a big majority http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2004/referendum/refresultsindex.html
And clearly shows the wishes of the Irish people in this matter. All in all a good days work.

Tha Gopher

daithicarr wrote: »

Their numbers arent really that significant , 35,000 Africans. 46,000 Asians.
about 0.8% and 1.1 % of the population each or for a total of just under 2% of the entire population hailing from all of Asia and Africa. very small numbers.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm

The census was widely acknowledged to have been grossly undercounting some groups tbh.

djpbarry

daithicarr wrote: »

Their numbers arent really that significant , 35,000 Africans. 46,000 Asians.
about 0.8% and 1.1 % of the population each or for a total of just under 2% of the entire population hailing from all of Asia and Africa. very small numbers.

When taken as a percentage of the total population, yes, but when taken as a percentage of the immigrant population, then their numbers are significant.

Tha Gopher wrote: »

The census was widely acknowledged to have been grossly undercounting some groups tbh.

I believe this was reconciled against workforce statistics earlier this year; a surplus of 84,000 foreign workers was found, but I would imagine most are from the EU.