Teamwork in h/u tournaments - hmmmmm. (LONG)

Requiem4adream

Was debating whether to post this for a while..... This could be long as it's quite awkward to explain. It just feels WRONG to me i'll explain my reasons afterwards but i could be in a minority.

They have h/u sngs on stars. They also have 4 way sngs. i.e. 2 semi-finals and a final with winner-take-all. I was playing some of the $200 and $500 4-way matches here and there over the past few weeks, noticed the same faces in them. Nothing new there. Rounders.

I had the other table open so i could watch how they play in case i got to final.

Very 1st hand:

PokerStars Game #16075607660:
Tournament #81382371, $550+$20 Hold'em No Limit -
Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2008/03/18 - 18:03:50 (ET)
Table '81382371 2' 2-max
Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Croixdawg (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: CHEKdezNUTS (1500 in chips)
Croixdawg: posts small blind 10
CHEKdezNUTS: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Croixdawg: raises 1480 to 1500 and is all-in
CHEKdezNUTS: calls 1480 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [7h Ac Jh]
*** TURN *** [7h Ac Jh] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [7h Ac Jh 4c] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CHEKdezNUTS: shows [5h 8s] (a pair of Eights)
Croixdawg: shows [4d Ks] (a pair of Fours)
CHEKdezNUTS collected 3000 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***

K4 shoves 85 calls? hmm. I didnt need to check sharkscope, i already knew these are 2 excellent players & big winners. So whats going on? i watched them for a while and it became uber-obvious they are working these sngs as a team.

Contacted stars about it.

Response:

Hello Daniel,

Thank you for contacting PokerStars

Please allow me to explain our stance on this matter. Players are unable to work in tandem by building pots for one another, passing chips back and forth, or unjustifiably squeezing players out of pots. These tactics are impossible in headsup matches. While it is true a friend can concede a match to another, we need to review the various scenarios in order to understand their effect.

1) Two friends begin in separate first round matches. Friend A vs Unknown A; Friend B vs Unknown B Note that they must win two matches in order to secure the prize money. If either friend loses in the first round, the other must win the second round match. If he/she should win the second round match, please remember that the player has the right to do what he/she wishes with the winnings (including sending them to his/her friend). Also consider that we permit deal making in our tournaments provided that all participants at the final table are included and demonstrate consent. If the two friends win their first round matches, then conceding the second round is no different than making a tournament deal. And perhaps the decisive issue is that any predetermined agreement between the two effectively means they are laying even money (their $10 to win the $10 of the unknowns) to win two matches. Working alone, in this sense, is more profitable since an individual would be getting 3 to 1 on his/her money ($5 to win $15) to win two matches.

2) Two friends begin in the same first round match. Friend A vs Friend B; Unknown A vs Unknown B. Nothing changes, except for the fact the friends may make a deal before the final table. This may be overlooked since this actually decreases any perceived advantage.

3) Three friends enter a 4-Player Heads Up Matches tournament Friend A vs Friend B; Friend C vs Unknown. Even though this scenario is different, the inherent challenges nullify any significant advantage. The friends effectively have two shots at taking down the prize pool via a victory by Friend C or the winner of Friend A/B in the second round. Yet these players are risking $15 to win $5 while the Unknown is risking $5 to win $15.

If you have any questions regarding this, or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,
Dean
PokerStars Support Team



I cant find my reply but my key points were these:

a) It looks bad.

b) In this specific case (croixdawg and CHEKdezNUTS) they are getting Evens as a team and i am getting 3/1. This is true. My key problem is what happens when they are drawn together. That match ALWAYS lasts 1 hand. I think i played 74 hands in my 1st round and another 30 odd in the final. In terms of time and effort it means i have to put in x-amount more of both, and x can sometimes be big if the match takes long. So when they get drawn together they play 1 hand and when they get drawn apart they have 3 scenarios: they both win and immediately win, 1 of them wins and has chance to TID or both lose.

imo if stars are going to tolerate this or approve of it then it should be clearly defined that they are working as a team. I could be wrong but i think in American horse racing if 2 horses are running for the same stable in same race they are "coupled" together, i.e. Horse 1 and Horse 1a. A similar system should apply.

I'm not sure if it's an angleshoot or just very smart. Probably the latter judging by their sharkscopes! Stars clearly allow this behaviour so my options are like it or lump it i suppose.

CHD

Same happened to me a fair bit during one week in the $50 4 person HU SNG.Stars werent interested when i emailed them.Same 2 people were nearly always registered together and would just push the 1st hand or play like lunatics for the 1st few hands.The few times the got to the Final Table together they pushed in the 1st hand with muck and instantly register for the next tournament.

green123

i cant see the problem here.

how does this give them an advantage ?

how does it put you at a disadvantage ?

bohsman

Seems very similar to multi accounting in mtts.

Requiem4adream

green123 wrote: »

i cant see the problem here.

how does this give them an advantage ?

how does it put you at a disadvantage ?

That's exactly it...im not sure. It just felt wrong. I play 75 odd hands 1st game and they play 1,i put in 45 mins to their 5 seconds 1st match. I just think it'd be better if it was more transparent.

Requiem4adream

bohsman wrote: »

Seems very similar to multi accounting in mtts.

That's the other side of the coin in terms of transparency - it's very plausible and reasonable to assume that they are the 1 person playing 2 accounts. I'm positive this is NOT the case here, they are 2 people but it just looks horrible imo, stars could do with changing policy on this one.

green123

yeah i see your point about the time, but apart from that i dont see any advantage

RoundTower

if you wanted to design a tournament so that no matter how hard people tried to collude it wouldn't give them an advantage, this would be it.

In fact they are at a disadvantage by doing this instead of just having one player enter and splitting the winnings. To see why, take it to the extreme where there are 32 players and 31 of them are playing as a team. Even if they won every time they couldn't beat the rake.

RoundTower

impressive customer service from Stars btw. From no other site would you receive a detailed answer that shows more understanding of poker than the original complaint.
very impressive April Fools otherwise

Lazare

Is there far higher traffic on the 4 person games compared to the 2 person? Do they fill up a lot quicker? This is the only advantage to playing as a team.

Complaining that you play 30 odd hands and they play one is ridiculous tbh, it's not like you're running a marathon and they get to sit out the first 45 mins.*

*edit, on second thoughts, they do have the opportunity to watch closely how you play, so, hmmmm.