DCU rugby - can't attract good players

figs86

This came up in my class the other day as there are 6/7 of us who play rugby to a good/ great standard ranging from former Ireland 7's player who plays with one of the top Division 1 AIL teams to...me who played on successful schools and underage club sides as a mediocre player but would definitely be up to DCU standard of play

Thing is....none of us play with DCU despite being in our 2nd year of college here.

Neither do any of the other good (notably so) rugby players we are aware of in DCU

I also know that Bernard Jackman and Jamie Heaslip never played regularly for DCU (heaslip played for trinners!)

It's a vicious circle that the team needs to play well to attract best players and needs best players to play well

Myself and one of the other lads are goin to play for DCU next season

Out of curiosity, anybody know any other good players who, for whatever reason, don't play for their college in DCU?

An Citeog

Does Max Rantz McDonald play?

figs86

no max plays for clontarf firsts, division one AIL

I know he's made a couple of cameo appearances for dcu in the past cos i think he is/was on schol and from match reports he ran in tries for fun

another great example!

we could field a kickass team if there was incentive (coaches, gym etc)

Mad_Max

Same story for all the clubs, with exception of GAA. Soccer club could win the frickin eircom league with the players in the college (Exageration :P). Unfortunately only the gaelic team can provide the incentives.

GavMan

Mad_Max wrote: »

Same story for all the clubs, with exception of GAA. Soccer club could win the frickin eircom league with the players in the college (Exageration :P). Unfortunately only the gaelic team can provide the incentives.

+1!!!

I'm on the committee of the rugby club and the university consistently and deliberately thwart and frustrate the efforts of the club to better training facilities, coaching staff, equipment and Rugby scholarship players are NOT forced to train and play with the team, which is a ludicrous situation. People like Max R McD turned out for us off his own bat because he wanted to. This would have been inspite of Tarfs wishes.

Fair play to people like Figs and his mates for deciding to come down and play next season. There's a real hardcore of committed players in the club and with the appropriate smattering of a few more high quality could really push us on. There is the players in the college, but in all fairness to them, there really is no incentive to come down.

The club is literally hamstrung by the University...

Mad_Max

GavMan wrote: »

+1!!!
The club is literally hamstrung by the University...

+1 on the +1 :P

Same in our situation. Sure we gave 3 new scholarships out this year and only one plays for the club on league basis. 2 played in our intervarsity competitions but only showed up that week.

From what i hear the gaelic have a ridiculous amount of money (more than i dare dream for) whereas we got out money reduced!!!

The DCU Sport party line is: "Win something and we will give you money"......
Reality is: "Give us money and we'll win something! "

That being said we should applaud all the hardcore players as gav says. Without them DCU would only be a Gaelic, Athletics and Tennis university.

figs86

Thanks for that insight Gav,

that's pretty disappointing that the college take that view. From what I've seen, the rugby club aren't given much by way of gym time and so on - nice gear though, pay for it yourselves?

Has there been application to college for group weights etc in the gym?
I've myself sorted with Westwood in Clontarf but it's a poor rugby team that aren't doing a couple of weights sessions a week, preferably together for uniformity, monitoring, team building etc

And when i read you're training in an Irish mid-winter without floodlights WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?!

that's also pretty ludicrous that they give out a schol to someone who isnt representing the college - what's the point, they're already in DCU and are doin nothing for the place?! it's same with one of the lads in my class who plays tennis and doesnt have to turn out for the college

GavMan

figs86 wrote: »

Thanks for that insight Gav,

No Probs

that's pretty disappointing that the college take that view. From what I've seen, the rugby club aren't given much by way of gym time and so on - nice gear though, pay for it yourselves?

Can't recall what the story is with the gym, but i don't think we got any. Yeah, bought and paid for by the club by way of private sponsorship money and partly funded by club money so members dont have to pay huge money. Socks and Shorts are 20blips and then we got a jacket, hoodie, tracksuit bottoms, tee shirt and a kit bag for like 120quid.

Has there been application to college for group weights etc in the gym?
I've myself sorted with Westwood in Clontarf but it's a poor rugby team that aren't doing a couple of weights sessions a week, preferably together for uniformity, monitoring, team building etc

Again, can't remember the story with the gym but i agree, its pretty weak that we dont have it as a squad session but i know some lads are members.

And when i read you're training in an Irish mid-winter without floodlights WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Mate, Floodlights ain't even the half of it! We train on the fallow bit of land behind the main GAA pitch and make do with it. Its tiny, you cant run team play drills, light is ****, the net behind the GAA poles is a safety issue too, Cant work on defense(incidentally, one of our coaches was involved with Rugby League Ireland, so we could have one of those rugby league style defensive systems in place which are sooo in vogue these days. But alas we cant because theres no room)

that's also pretty ludicrous that they give out a schol to someone who isnt representing the college - what's the point, they're already in DCU and are doin nothing for the place?! it's same with one of the lads in my class who plays tennis and doesnt have to turn out for the college

Indeed, but again, we're hamstrung by the lack of co operation by DCU

What I would say is that in my 4 years in the team(in final year now), i've made some really great friends and had some great times and played some really great rugby with them too. Nights out are always a blast too. The Social side of the club is great. But despite our best efforts we cant change our image from being a social club to being a serious rugby club(because of the things i've mentioned) and this is the image we want. We want to be ambitious, we want to win leagues, cups etc. But alas....

There is a whole other kettle of fish with regards the development of the club, and thats the issue of weekend rugby. There really is only one way forward for a club like DCU and thats to get rugby club playing outside of colleges rugby. Its the only way that we can ever hope to have a standing such as UCD, Trinners, UCC, QUB etc. But there has been a reluctance on previous committees to take the plunge and go for it. The only way that this will happen is if we can turn the club into a real rugby club with real infrastructure, convince lads to leave there home teams and play only for us exclusively, Bring back some recently past players, approach some of the peripheral players from SCT's that wouldn't get picked up by anyone else, give them scholarships and make them play for us and rise up through the leagues.

All but distant hopes, in a time when the University is interested in actually helping their students, rather casting them aside...

rugbug86

It's the same for Women's Rugby. Currently I know of 1 international and 2 leinster players who are in DCU but they're not involved in the club because, well, why would they? The facilities for rugby are crap in comparison to other colleges. As GavMan said the training pitch is completely below the standard needed for proper training.

Amz

In fairness the women's team are still being shoved into a corner between the rugby pitch and the GAA pitch.

There is no proper lighting etc. So even weekday evening games are out of the question. Not to mention the fact that it's dangerous.

kramyllek

DCU rugby does itself no favours at the same time, I saw a game against sallynogin IT,who could only field 14 players, and tehy hammered DCU by 30 points!!Where are the basics? You say its not an issue of commitment but there has to be some reason because it was hard to see on tackle out there?!!!I'm not being harsh but its not the most appealing thought to play for a team thats going to get hammered all the time.

As for the scholarship issue I don't understand it either!!!WHy is it not mandatory for the two or three on scholarships to play?It makes no sense.If a GAA player was to do this he'd be out on his ass, no money or accomodation.

Also, surely the complete underperformance of the GAA team in the past two years, funding must be reviewed?So many issues.

I it plausable to take DCU and make it a club team when it isn't performing at alll?I can't see that happening until the team starts playing.That would be DCU's approach anyway.

Mad_Max

kramyllek wrote: »

DCU rugby does itself no favours at the same time, I saw a game against sallynogin IT,who could only field 14 players, and tehy hammered DCU by 30 points!!Where are the basics? You say its not an issue of commitment but there has to be some reason because it was hard to see on tackle out there?!!!I'm not being harsh but its not the most appealing thought to play for a team thats going to get hammered all the time.
.

Misinformed comment.

First of all i don't know anything about rugger im a soccer guy but i've played on good teams that have had to play with 9 against 11 and we've hammered them so 14 players could well be irrelevant if they are 14 good players.

Secondly don't say that a lack of commitment is why theres no tackles. Thats not fair. The lads that turn out are committed by that shear fact. Lack of ability does not mean lack of commitment.

In regard to DCU Rugby and the "basics". Bad performances and lack of basics reflect a poor player pool and its a vicious cycle that does effect future player pools.

It's not easy for any club to get a better pool of players, it took the (previously useless) GAA club a bucket load of money and investment to get a good pool of players.

Personally i find that attitude that i don't want to play for a team that gets hammered as the reason clubs suffer. Big head charlies don't want to represent the university for fear of being a loser. I've lost MANY a time representing DCU and it will never stop me representing them.

jdivision

figs86 wrote: »

Jamie Heaslip never played regularly for DCU (heaslip played for trinners!)

So did Trevor Hogan when he was in DCU. Why? Far higher standard. I don't think Jamie ever played for DCU.

GavMan

jdivision wrote: »

So did Trevor Hogan when he was in DCU. Why? Far higher standard. I don't think Jamie ever played for DCU.

Jamie did

Leon11

You'll never be able to get high performance players playing for DCU because of the fact that most of them are contracted to development contracts. Bar the universities that play in the AIL the rest of the 3rd level institutions struggle to attract the best players in colleges. At Tallaght we had 3/4 of us in the irish colleges and a rake of us playing AIL/J1 but no one really bothered to play because the opposition was so bad.

This is unfortunate I know but it's the reality. Ideally what should be encouraged is the link up between Uni's and Rugby clubs in the AIL/Junior Leagues. If you look at Maynooth they run a program in partnership with Barnhall where the majority of the lads train and play with us throughout the week. They may have a team run in the college on say a Monday and play their game on the Wednesday. There's 3-5 lads playing at AIL/J1 level giving them a good standard to play whilst the rest would play U-20 and J3/4. AFAIK Maynooth have had a really good year by their standards making a semifinal or two.

Coolmine is a club who could benefit from such a link up or Clontarf although I'd say at Clontarf most guys would be hoping to make J1 at best which is still a pretty good standard for that team.

GavMan

Leon11 wrote: »

You'll never be able to get high performance players playing for DCU because of the fact that most of them are contracted to development contracts. Bar the universities that play in the AIL the rest of the 3rd level institutions struggle to attract the best players in colleges. At Tallaght we had 3/4 of us in the colleges and a rake of us playing AIL/J1 but no one really bothered to play because the opposition was so bad.

This is unfortunate I know but it's the reality. Ideally what should be encouraged is the link up between Uni's and Rugby clubs in the AIL/Junior Leagues. If you look at Maynooth they run a program in partnership with Barnhall where the majority of the lads train and play with us throughout the week. They may have a team run in the college on say a Monday and play their game on the Wednesday. There's 3-5 lads playing at AIL/J1 level giving them a good standard to play whilst the rest would play U-20 and J3/4. AFAIK Maynooth have had a really good year by their standards making a semifinal or two.

Coolmine is a club who could benefit from such a link up or Clontarf although I'd say at Clontarf most guys would be hoping to make J1 at best which is still a pretty good standard for that team.

Couldn't agree more Leon...

I see getting the club into weekend rugby as the way forward. We need to get it into weekend rugby, moving through the leagues and into AIL 3 contention.

But for that to happen, we need to have the help of the University. We would need a large and continuous financial investment. I know right now we could never attract any of the best SCT players from the big six(Rock, Michaels, Marys, Belvo, Clongowes, CBC Monkstown), but don't tell me that if you offered a scholarship to a player who wouldn't get one from the likes to UCD and Trinity, we're talking unsung, unheralded but solid players to get us kick started and get us through the Leinster Leagues.

Leon11

I agree in theory with the idea but you are talking a limited pool base, remember how many young players do you see playing JP Premier Level, there is realistically 6 teams top that field strong sides. I can't see much attraction for players to come and play unless in theory you were to get LL div.1 status within 5-6 years which is extremely hard to do. Unless the resources that the GAA get out in DCU is made available to rugby it won't happen, even if it were to happen just look at the huge resources put into Tallaght, still no Adult team in Div.3 although I imagine with the expansion of the junior leagues and restructuring that they will begin to compete at that level sooner rather than later.

segadreamcast

GavMan wrote: »

+1!!!

People like Max R McD turned out for us off his own bat because he wanted to. This would have been inspite of Tarfs wishes.

Nothing to do with his two years of scholarships, no?

Amz

Leon11 wrote: »

I agree in theory with the idea but you are talking a limited pool base, remember how many young players do you see playing JP Premier Level, there is realistically 6 teams top that field strong sides. I can't see much attraction for players to come and play unless in theory you were to get LL div.1 status within 5-6 years which is extremely hard to do. Unless the resources that the GAA get out in DCU is made available to rugby it won't happen, even if it were to happen just look at the huge resources put into Tallaght, still no Adult team in Div.3 although I imagine with the expansion of the junior leagues and restructuring that they will begin to compete at that level sooner rather than later.

A rugby development officer for DCU has been mooted, it was proposed (as far as I know) that the mens and womens teams join forces in order to achieve this. I've seen how successful the introduction of an RDO has been in NUI Maynooth, even with the schools in the area who never fielded teams, they organised competitions for development schools and that proved hugely successful, they've given players a love of the game and this will no doubt encourage these players to strongly consider NUI Maynooth as a viable 3rd level option.

GavMan

NoelRock wrote: »

Nothing to do with his two years of scholarships, no?

No. He didn't have to play under the terms of his scholarship. He played because he wanted to...

Gava1986

I have played my 1st season with DCU & I agree completely with figs it is a vicious circle; the players don't come down, the team doesn't perform, the team arent't successful, no one wants to play.

I also agree with what some1 said earlier about there being a strong committment in the team, there is a good strong team mentality amongst a number a people including myself who have all become friends thru the club this year. Had gr8 nite out, a laugh, training which i work hard in but h8 was also very enjoyable, & I'm looking 4ward to next year to building on this as there was potential there. but a group of 9/10 doesnt make a full team.

Some guys 4/5 had never played b4 & improve hugly throughout the year as well as a number of players who have played 4 a number of years whether it be with a club or a school team like myself. There were also a few newcomers who started in 2nd semester for whatever reason who look like gr8 additions who im sure are going to establish themselves in the team, unfortunately they came when we were already knocked out, but better l8 then ever. Unfortunately there were a number of players, luckily a minority who were good players who didnt show the commitment needed & werent there when they were truly needed.

If the like of figs86, who im sure i no comes down along with the 6/7 he said Im sure DCU can build a team despite having no backing from the college.

DCU has given no backing to the club, no disrespect to the G.A.A club but the backing they get is disgraceful, they get a ridicolous amount of money compared to us. We had to buy are own gear except the jerseys, we have no flood lights either, which make training on a monday night in the winter difficult & restricting also no incentives to attract the big players from the big rugby schools. & we're expected to produce a winning team....sorry it doesnt work like that, not a professional level & not at grassroots level.:mad:

Another thing comes to mind the club president a lecture in the college forced the club to pay a rugby player from dcu costs to represent the college in the irish colleges team when he doesnt even play with the team. The club lost money because they were forced to pay cost 4 some who didnt play 4 us.:mad:

I'm sure if the college invest in the club then in a few years mayb the club could compete with the like of trinity, ucd etc. as there are a number of outstanding players in dcu who havent turned out for the club.

The fact is the potential is there unfortunately the college has to many G.A.A heads in high places who either are to ignorant or choose to ignore it

Mad_Max

GavMan wrote: »

Couldn't agree more Leon...

I see getting the club into weekend rugby as the way forward. We need to get it into weekend rugby, moving through the leagues and into AIL 3 contention.

But for that to happen, we need to have the help of the University. We would need a large and continuous financial investment. I know right now we could never attract any of the best SCT players from the big six(Rock, Michaels, Marys, Belvo, Clongowes, CBC Monkstown), but don't tell me that if you offered a scholarship to a player who wouldn't get one from the likes to UCD and Trinity, we're talking unsung, unheralded but solid players to get us kick started and get us through the Leinster Leagues.

Unfortunately Gav DCU Sport are tightening the belt and any club that increases a non-university base will be targeted for some penny pinching. We tried the same pushed our club into a higher competitive, non college level and all was going well, got a development office but now that our player pool is maybe 50-50 students to non students and they want to pull the plug.

So its kinda a catch-22. You'll need to keep a strong uni base to make them support you but in reality will probably need to increase the non-uni base to compete.

figs86

my original point was that they are plenty of excellent players in the college who just aren't turning up - even the thought of free/cheap kit would lure plenty of them down.

don't think we need to open to non-students, definitely do need improved facilities - i would have serious probs trainin with no lights in midwinter - flippin dangerous, wrecks your eyes, loads of dropped balls etc

so.....nab all d rugby heads we can in college, get big base, get more money from dcu

maybe expand what the rugby club do/are about? get matches on in the bar for those who are just fans to turn up and contribute and become members of rugby club, swelling the numbers too

even a simple, official effort to go and hound rugby players in the college into playing - if theres good numbers, good standards and good craic for first couple o weeks, they'll keep coming back

now....must remember to bother the lads i know!

Mad_Max

figs86 wrote: »

my original point was that they are plenty of excellent players in the college who just aren't turning up - even the thought of free/cheap kit would lure plenty of them down.

don't think we need to open to non-students, definitely do need improved facilities - i would have serious probs trainin with no lights in midwinter - flippin dangerous, wrecks your eyes, loads of dropped balls etc

so.....nab all d rugby heads we can in college, get big base, get more money from dcu

maybe expand what the rugby club do/are about? get matches on in the bar for those who are just fans to turn up and contribute and become members of rugby club, swelling the numbers too

even a simple, official effort to go and hound rugby players in the college into playing - if theres good numbers, good standards and good craic for first couple o weeks, they'll keep coming back

now....must remember to bother the lads i know!

Youthful optimism

I am going into second year next year and am wanting to take up rugby...should I take it up here or go to another club? Are the rugby club welcoming to beginners?

Amz

Yes they are welcoming, like any club once you're not there to take the piss and you're not a complete asshat you'll be welcomed.

GavMan

Deleted User wrote: »

I am going into second year next year and am wanting to take up rugby...should I take it up here or go to another club? Are the rugby club welcoming to beginners?

Very welcoming. Give it your best shot, be committed and you'll be very welcome to the club

GavMan

GavMan wrote: »

Very welcoming. Give it your best shot, be committed and you'll be very welcome to the club

Cheers

Nothingcompares

I think people need to get a number of things in perspective. This is Irish rugby not american college football. People choose which Dublin Uni to go to based on course/location and prestige (amongst other reasons). Even the most gifted and committed rugby players who aren't thick as **** probably wouldn't look at the status of rugby in the respective Uni's that closely. Leinster has a good development plan you can access via AIL clubs. WRT to sports scholarships and specifically rugby scholarships, I consider them only a token sum - gargle money. UCd has the most lucriative but they're really only for the top players, TCD offer around 1k for putting TCD has your first choice CAO etc. and getting accepted.

What's the relationship between DCU and CLontarf these days? I know DIT were sharing players/facilitates/coaches with a dublin club have/are DCU doing that?