Magic/illusions board..

zuroph

I have a number of issues with this board.
1) Trick sharing is encouraged and videos have already been linked to.

The secret of how a trick is done is the value of the product which the magician hopes to sell. posting reveals is tantamount to theft of that product. If the boards.ie community do not discuss torrents or illegal methods of getting tv, then illegal sharing of magic secrets should not be tolerated either.

2) Two of the moderators admittedly have no magic experience? Surely there are better suited candidates, than two novices who encourage trick sharing and take my complaints re that as an attack on them.


Across the internet there are numerous magic forums, and all the good ones strictly prohibit secret sharing. admittedly there are some sites that do allow this, but have a quick look around, legal action has been taken and will be taken again by the big magic sites. If your mods for this forum had been familiar with the regular online magic community, they would have known this.

If a magic fourm is to exist on boards, in my opinion, it needs much stricter controls. magic is not just a hobby, for many its a livelyhood, the last thing i need is to do a trick at work on a saturday night, only to find the person asking how it was done on here sunday morning, and getting a response.

Gordon

How is explaining how a trick is done 'illegal'?

zuroph

a lot of tricks are copyrighted, and sold by specific companies, revealing the secret to them removes the value of the product. Legal action has been taken by companies such as penguin magic in the past. its just a danger to be aware of.

regardless, the sharing of tricks is accepted as unethical in the magic community as it is the invention and intellectual property of the creator. sharing tricks in such a public domain leaves it open to being read by anyone, thus ruining the trick. If i do a trick for you and tell you how its done straight after, you have a few seconds of enjoyment out of it, if i never tell you, you will wonder about it for quite some time to come, and that is where magicians make their money.

Gordon

So you are saying that some tricks are copyrighted? If that is the case then don't they have to be written down to be copyrighted? Are you talking about patents also?

Have you got a link to information on the penguin magic legal action? Did they win?

I know what you mean about unethical, I guess it's similar to sites like www.opensourcetemplates.org that essentialy give away professionaly designed websites - hence driving prices down for websites and eliminating the need for web designers. In fact that argument could be stretched to Open Source software couldn't it? What if the world was open source? Open source lawyers?

zuroph wrote: »

If i do a trick for you and tell you how its done straight after, you have a few seconds of enjoyment out of it, if i never tell you, you will wonder about it for quite some time to come, and that is where magicians make their money.

Not quite correct. Maybe that is what magicians believe, but I know for a fact that many people get much more fun out of being shown the trick and learning it for themselves, there is a great market for it.

zuroph

well that is a personal opinion of yours, and one that is not agreed with by the magic community. hence, magic circles. its an art form, and we are entertainers. to give away the trick is to cheapen the entertainment. look up talkmagic forums, see what i mean.


edit:

I have received pms and public posts agreeing with my argument, perhaps this thread could be moved to feedback so you may hear others opinions without clogging up the magic forum?

Gordon

Sure.

Sherifu

Same as your thread in M&I. I await proof it's illegal...

Hagar

Should we care about the legality or otherwise?
I mean if it's going to spoil the "magic" should we allow it?
All in all it might be best to make it a private forum if tricks being revealed is going to be an issue.

JoseJones

it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not, magic secrets and methods shouldn't be discussed on a public forum, go to any magic forum and the same rule applies.

biko

See mine and others responses in the M&I thread Is the internet killing magic?

cornbb

There was a thread in Feedback a while ago re. the naming of "secret" surfing spots in the Surfing forum a while back. It was more or less the same issue that is being discussed here.

The impression I got in both cases is that the more "elite" participants in each hobby took issue because they felt that the sharing of secrets would damage their sole enjoyment of surfing or magic. Of course, keeping these secrets secret would impede the enjoyment of each hobby by beginners. So its more or less a case of jealously trying to prevent the spread of information - a refusal to share. I use the word "secret" in the loosest sense of the word possible as I suspect nothing will be discussed on M&I that wouldn't be revealed via a quick Google search anyway.

I don't think there should be any prohibition on the sharing of such information, unless the M&I mods or a sizeable proportion of the users of the forum decide it should be. Except of course where illegal activity is taking place (the sharing of intellectual property).

I'll say the same thing to zuroph as I said to the pissed off jealous localist surfers: Its the Internet (a.k.a. the information superhighway). Deal with it.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

zuroph wrote: »

a lot of tricks are copyrighted, and sold by specific companies, revealing the secret to them removes the value of the product. Legal action has been taken by companies such as penguin magic in the past. its just a danger to be aware of.

regardless, the sharing of tricks is accepted as unethical in the magic community as it is the invention and intellectual property of the creator. sharing tricks in such a public domain leaves it open to being read by anyone, thus ruining the trick. If i do a trick for you and tell you how its done straight after, you have a few seconds of enjoyment out of it, if i never tell you, you will wonder about it for quite some time to come, and that is where magicians make their money.

Copyright does not apply as we are not talking about reproduction of a communication over which an author has a right.

Patent law does not apply as there is no attempt to reproduce the mechanisms under patent. If the company did have a patent, the details of how the trick works is already in the public domain. All patent submissions are freely obtainable, on the internet or from the patent office.

You are talking out of your ass.

I would absolutely defend the right of the public to share explanations of how a trick is done.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

JoseJones wrote: »

it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not, magic secrets and methods shouldn't be discussed on a public forum,

Wha
Why the hell not? It's a public forum.

If people find out how your tricks are done and you're not happy, get some new tricks.

tbh

cornbb wrote: »

I'll say the same thing to zuroph as I said to the pissed off jealous localist surfers: Its the Internet (a.k.a. the information superhighway). Deal with it.

OP, it might be worth noting that that's pretty much the same response the admins (DeV) gave. I believe his exact quote was that trying to prevent information being passed on was akin to "nailing jelly to the ceiling".

All the material in M&I is really just a link to videos already available and easily found.

you might have more luck if you argued that the forum should be a private one, I think that has some merit.

zuroph

the suggestion that it pushes magicians to create new tricks is false..

Say I create a trick and start selling it. on the frist day someone who has bought it puts it online and shows everyone for free. where is my profit on this, and where is the encouragement to create new tricks? why bother if there will never be any return?

the argument that they are in the public domain is also ridiculous. sure they are on the internet, but so too are illegal music tracks, movies, instructions on how to build bombs or commit suicide, and even child pornography? should we be allowed link to these because they "are in the public domain"??

Sharing of magic secrets is morally objectionable, and any experienced magicians frown upon it. hopefully we will be in the majority on this forum and discourage it. If someone wants to learn magic, by all means go ahead, but pay for the priviledge to the people who have spent so long adding to the art by creating amazing illusions.

Sherifu

Hagar wrote: »

Should we care about the legality or otherwise?

Yes.

JoseJones wrote: »

it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not

I disagree.

Perhaps a subforum for the discussion of tricks?

I for, do not want to know how many tricks are done as I find them fascinating to watch.

If there is a subforum, then people who want to discuss this aspect can do, without taking away from the wonder of the trick from those who wish to remain ignorant of how it was done.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

zuroph wrote: »

the argument that they are in the public domain is also ridiculous. sure they are on the internet, but so too are illegal music tracks, movies, instructions on how to build bombs or commit suicide, and even child pornography? should we be allowed link to these because they "are in the public domain"??

I don't think you understand.

If you want to patent a trick, you have to compile a very detailed patent application which will detail exactly how a trick works, and people have a legal right to see the patent and see exactly how your trick works.

If you want to try arguing with a judge that the sharing of this information is illegal, then be prepared to get laughed at.

zuroph

tbh wrote: »

OP, it might be worth noting that that's pretty much the same response the admins (DeV) gave. I believe his exact quote was that trying to prevent information being passed on was akin to "nailing jelly to the ceiling".

All the material in M&I is really just a link to videos already available and easily found.

you might have more luck if you argued that the forum should be a private one, I think that has some merit.

thats how it starts, but it ends in hundreds of threads of links to rapidshare copyrighted videos, its happened on other forums. I just think the stance needs to be set on this early in the forum. and yes, id wholeheartedly call for a private subforum at the very least, accessible to those who have demonstrated a keen knowledge of the art.

as for overestimating how many people come looking for magic secrets online, every nite i perform people say "im going to look that up online tomorrow". thankfully, my tricks have not been revealed online.

cornbb

zuroph wrote: »

the suggestion that it pushes magicians to create new tricks is false..

Say I create a trick and start selling it. on the frist day someone who has bought it puts it online and shows everyone for free. where is my profit on this, and where is the encouragement to create new tricks? why bother if there will never be any return?

the argument that they are in the public domain is also ridiculous. sure they are on the internet, but so too are illegal music tracks, movies, instructions on how to build bombs or commit suicide, and even child pornography? should we be allowed link to these because they "are in the public domain"??

Sharing of magic secrets is morally objectionable, and any experienced magicians frown upon it. hopefully we will be in the majority on this forum and discourage it. If someone wants to learn magic, by all means go ahead, but pay for the priviledge to the people who have spent so long adding to the art by creating amazing illusions.

I think comparing the "moral wrongness" of sharing magic secrets to instructions on suicide, bomb making, child porn etc is ridiculous and wrong. The sharing of magic secrets may appear to be morally objectionable to a tiny elite number of magic enthusiasts but is beneficial to the vastly larger number of hobbyists who enjoy it.

JoseJones

Sean_K wrote: »

Wha
Why the hell not? It's a public forum.

If people find out how your tricks are done and you're not happy, get some new tricks.

They're not my tricks, they have taken probably hours of hard work by someone to invent...I don't expect you to care cos you're not a magician, but, if you do give a **** about magic or magicians, then can we stop the discussion of method on the forum?

zuroph

cornbb wrote: »

I think comparing the "moral wrongness" of sharing magic secrets to instructions on suicide, bomb making, child porn etc is ridiculous and wrong. The sharing of magic secrets may appear to be morally objectionable to a tiny elite number of magic enthusiasts but is beneficial to the vastly larger number of hobbyists who enjoy it.

I am not in anyway comapring the moral wrongness, i am merely pointing out that just because something is on the internet makes it fair game.

Gordon

zuroph wrote: »

thats how it starts, but it ends in hundreds of threads of links to rapidshare copyrighted videos, its happened on other forums.

If you see a link to copyrighted material then please report the post and it will be dealt with.

as for overestimating how many people come looking for magic secrets online, every nite i perform people say "im going to look that up online tomorrow". thankfully, my tricks have not been revealed online.

Great! You should get other magicians to learn how you keep your tricks secret

Thomas_S_Hunterson

JoseJones wrote: »

They're not my tricks, they have taken probably hours of hard work by someone to invent...I don't expect you to care cos you're not a magician, but, if you do give a **** about magic or magicians, then can we stop the discussion of method on the forum?

Well how about something that Blaupunkt spent tens of millions of euros researching (a fair bit more than some pesky half-bit magician).

The Compact disc (CD) player and method of compensating for tracking jumps

Want to know how it works?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=NCcvAAAAEBAJ&dq=cd+player

JoseJones

what's eventually going to happen is somebody buys a trick, and tells everyone how it's done. It might not be illegal, but it's wrong. Now my guess is that most of the people posting in this thread are not magicians, that's why you keep talking about copyrights and patents. The issue isn't legality, but morality. It might not be illegal, but it's wrong.

zuroph

Well can we not see from here that the people here with more than a passing interest in magic are opposed to trick sharing? is the magic forum set up to accomodate irish magicians, or for passers by? Surely with this level of protest, you can accept that maybe we have a point?

JoseJones

Sean_K wrote: »

Well how about something that Blaupunkt spent tens of millions of euros researching (a fair bit more than some pesky half-bit magician).

The Compact disc (CD) player and method of compensating for tracking jumps

Want to know how it works?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=NCcvAAAAEBAJ&dq=cd+player

No, I don't, is that really relevant? Like I said, I don't expect you to care, but I'm appealing to magicians.

6th

Ok here it goes.

The forum is not for Irish Magicians. Sure they can use it but so can anyone else as long as the abide by Boards.ie rules and the rules of the forum.

I will get back to this later as Casualty is starting.

Myself & r3nu4l will be discussing the charter and making some changes but I really dont want the forum private despite suggesting it when I requested the forum.

Mr. Presentable

The OP may have a point. The whole premise of the professional magician is the mystery. Take that away and all you have is sleight of hand. I'm not sure if it's proper or right to stop the discussion of mechanics on an internet forum, but to spout that the information is available elsewhere does not in itself reduce the responsibility of the exposer. It's akin to telling your child Santa doesn't exist.

Make the forum private - that'd be a good accomodation in my opinion.

Rb

zuroph wrote: »

Well can we not see from here that the people here with more than a passing interest in magic are opposed to trick sharing? is the magic forum set up to accomodate irish magicians, or for passers by? Surely with this level of protest, you can accept that maybe we have a point?

It's set up so people can discuss magic overall, be it just people with a passing interest, amateurs or professionals be it how to do a trick,

If a magician doesn't want people knowing how his trick is done, them how about they just don't tell anybody and just make their money off the ticket sales?

Rb

nipplenuts wrote: »

The OP may have a point. The whole premise of the professional magician is the mystery. Take that away and all you have is sleight of hand. I'm not sure if it's proper or right to stop the discussion of mechanics on an internet forum, but to spout that the information is available elsewhere does not in itself reduce the responsibility of the exposer. It's akin to telling your child Santa doesn't exist.

Make the forum private - that'd be a good accomodation in my opinion.

I agree with making the forum private, but I certainly don't believe that access to it should only be granted to those with existing knowledge in the area, which is what these "magicians" are looking for.

JoseJones

or else keep it public, and agree not to reveal methods or mechanics? it seems like the only people against this are the people who don't have any real interest in magic...

tbh

if you produce a trick, and sell it to someone, there's nothing to stop them from making a show specifically showing people how your trick works, is there? I mean, you don't make them sign a non-disclosure agreement do you?

The problem here isn't with boards, it's with people making the videos in the first place.

As long as the information is out there, and it's not illegal, then it's going to be carried on the internet, and for boards to make a stand on something like this and try to prevent the conduit of this type of information would be pointless.

The irony is that threads like these have a tendency to increase traffic to the forum being discussed, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot. My advice to you would be to pick your battles a bit better - you're never going to prevent the information being shared, but you could make a good case for requesting the the forum being made private - threads wouldn't show up in google, for a start.

Mr. Presentable

rb_ie wrote: »

I agree with making the forum private, but I certainly don't believe that access to it should only be granted to those with existing knowledge in the area, which is what these "magicians" are looking for.

I have no particular interest in "magic" but am trying to see their point of view. Make it private and restricted to those who like the idea of having 6th as their overlord

Mr. Presentable

tbh wrote: »

As long as the information is out there, and it's not illegal, then it's going to be carried on the internet, and for boards to make a stand on something like this and try to prevent the conduit of this type of information would be pointless.
.

Just because it's available elsewhere is no justification for why it should be available here. In fact, it may be considered a good reason why there is no need for it to be duplicated on Boards.ie.

JoseJones

if you produce a trick, and sell it to someone, there's nothing to stop them from making a show specifically showing people how your trick works, is there? I mean, you don't make them sign a non-disclosure agreement do you?

Nothing to stop them but it's wrong. well, magicians don't agree with it anyway...

Sherifu

JoseJones wrote: »

Nothing to stop them but it's wrong. well, magicians don't agree with it anyway...

I've seen magicians explaining tricks. e.g. Penn & Teller, Masked Magician(Val Valentino).

Gordon

A magician tought me his tricks when I worked in a bar not so long ago. He would show me tricks and if I asked him how he did them he'd tell me or show me. He'd also bounce his new material off me when he created it. Maybe he did this to keep sweet with the bartender, but he knew that I showed my customers how I did my tricks/bartricks after I had shown them the trick. I think there are some magicians that don't mind and some that do tbh.

tbh

nipplenuts wrote: »

Just because it's available elsewhere is no justification for why it should be available here. In fact, it may be considered a good reason why there is no need for it to be duplicated on Boards.ie.

but the onus isn't to prove that it should be available here, it's that it shouldn't. And the OP hasn't made a strong enough case, IMO. As i've said, I can see a good argument for saying that it should be restricted, but not prohibited.

zuroph

Sherifu wrote: »

I've seen magicians explaining tricks. e.g. Penn & Teller, Masked Magician(Val Valentino).

What does what you have seen matter? I've seen a person stabbed, that doesnt make it ok.

penn and teller would reveal their own tricks, also, in a lot of magic, a small secret is revealed to hide the bigger secret. derren brown regularily "explains" how tricks work on his tv shows, the explanations he gives are rarely factual.

val valentino on the other hand is hated, a washed up magician who took the chance of making some money by selling out against the industry that had given him an income for years. he initially turned fox down on moral grounds, and only signed up when they raised their money offer, told him he would be masked, and said that only older illusions would be revealed. while filming they forced him into newer illusions also.

Sherifu

zuroph wrote: »

What does what you have seen matter? I've seen a person stabbed, that doesnt make it ok.

A person stabbed :pac:
He said magicians don't reveal tricks. I've seen some reveal. Obviously some magicians are ok with it.

zuroph wrote: »

penn and teller would reveal their own tricks, also, in a lot of magic, a small secret is revealed to hide the bigger secret. derren brown regularily "explains" how tricks work on his tv shows, the explanations he gives are rarely factual.

val valentino on the other hand is hated, a washed up magician who took the chance of making some money by selling out against the industry that had given him an income for years. he initially turned fox down on moral grounds, and only signed up when they raised their money offer, told him he would be masked, and said that only older illusions would be revealed. while filming they forced him into newer illusions also.

lol

JoseJones

penn and teller revealing their own tricks is completely different do some guy going out, buying someone's trick and then telling everyone how it's done on a public forum...

Sherifu

JoseJones wrote: »

penn and teller revealing their own tricks is completely different do some guy going out, buying someone's trick and then telling everyone how it's done on a public forum...

I don't think they were Penn & Teller's tricks. The ones I saw were well known illusions/magic tricks. Anyway it doesn't matter. Val Valentino revealed tricks that definitely weren't his and he did it on the most public stage of all; television. I'm not saying it's right, just that some magicians are ok with revealing secrets. I can respect the desire to have these things kept in the magic circle or whatever.

zuroph

some...

like some people are ok with stealing others wives. not illegal, but morally objectionable.

Voodu Child

I think the issue is one of understanding and respect, rather than anything to do with legality or freedom of information. Lots of things are freely available on the internet, who cares, boards.ie isn't 'the internet', the rules here are decided based on a multitide of reasons, legality being pretty far down on the list most of the time.

The fact is, not revealing methods to 'non magicians' has been part of the magic artform since day one. It's not an 'elitism' or snobbery thing, it's just a way of keeping things 'magic' rather than some daft eejit hiding things up his sleeve.

Going out of the way to start up a magic forum, and then not making any guidelines regarding 'exposure' is bizarre and shows very little understanding of the artform, and very little respect to enthusiasts, on the part of whoever decided these things.

Was there any research at all done, or was it just a case of lobbying for any forum at all just so that someone could finally be a mod?

WhiteWashMan

since we appear to have hit a question on ethics and moral responsibility, why dont the mods of the forum simply put the question to those who post in the forum?

no point in putting it to the public, becuase lets face it, other than a passing interest, most of us dont give a fig about how magic works.

however, let it be said that while showing tricks may be annoying to other magicians, i fail to see whats wrong with it other than the ethical debate.
if th poll comes up in favour of keeping the lid on the tricks, then im sure the mods will respect the majority decision of the forum.

Voodu Child

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

since we appear to have hit a question on ethics and moral responsibility, why dont the mods of the forum simply put the question to those who post in the forum?

That suggestion was made (by me) via PM to one of the mods last week after seeing the kerfuffle it was causing on some threads there.

Im not sure if he rejected it or just hasn't gotten around to posting the poll/thread. Its not a busy forum so i'd assume the former.

6th

You assume wrong. Busy week with alot of drama. Alot of thought is going into it and I'll be blathering on about it tomorrow.

Voodu Child

6th wrote: »

You assume wrong.

You know what they say about assumption... :pac: Happy to be wrong, but there was reason for my assumption - you made completely contradictory remarks in the days following our PM agreement.

Good to see the issue is under consideration in any case.
Regards,

Hennessy

6th wrote: »

You assume wrong. Busy week with alot of drama. Alot of thought is going into it and I'll be blathering on about it tomorrow.

WWman hits nail on head.

Make the forum a hosted and private one..

TequilaMockingBird

If I go to the DIY forum and ask someone how to change a washer on a tap, my local plumber looses the job.

Its the same thing, I can get the information if I want it. If I don't want to know how, I'll call the plumber.

This is his trade, can he ask Boards.ie not to reveal how to change a washer as it affects his business? I think not.