Urgent.. Diesel Fiat Stilo filled with e50 worth of Petrol

Run_to_da_hills

Brother just phoned me, a young pump attendant filled his Fiat Stylo with e50 worth of petrol. only copped it when his car spluttered up the road!! Drove back to the garage and is currently siphoning it out. Whose responsible? Also whats the best way to drain the tank? is there a bung? will the fuel pump need bleeding and can a certain amount of petrol be left in the system. Thanks.

crosstownk

Obvious one first - don't drive any further.

Have the car recovered and the tank drained. Replace the fuel filter and all should be well.

Hold onto the receipt and stick the fuel station with the bill.

smcgiff

Bugger!

There should be an outlet to drain the tank. I pity the poor petrol pump attendant (well, it's not my car! ).

Not sure how you're going to drain the fuel lines. I'm not sure how much damage has been done to the engine.

Come to think of it I thought the nozzles of petrol and diesel pumps were shaped so as not to fit into the other tanks?

Anyway, sorry for your trouble!

crosstownk

smcgiff wrote: »

Come to think of it I thought the nozzles of petrol and diesel pumps were shaped so as not to fit into the other tanks?

A petrol nozzle will fit into a diesel neck, but not vice-versa.

@OP - how much diesel was in the tank before the €50 petrol was put in?

Run_to_da_hills

crosstownk wrote: »

A petrol nozzle will fit into a diesel neck, but not vice-versa.

@OP - how much diesel was in the tank before the €50 petrol was put in?

more or less on reserve.

crosstownk

Right so - see my first post. If it's not a common rail system then you should be OK.

Run_to_da_hills

Brother just got back, the Garage are taking full responsibility and are draining tank in the morning by their mechanic prob solved. Thanks.

groupb

crosstownk wrote: »

Right so - see my first post. If it's not a common rail system then you should be OK.

Think it might be common rail. Fiat invented it.

crosstownk

groupb wrote: »

Think it might be common rail. Fiat invented it.

I didn't know that. Common rail is a lot more sensitive to contamination than standard diesel injection systems. I could tell you a very a long story about a Toyota Avensis with CRD that had petrol contamination..........it cost thousands to get right!

The Real B-man

First of all what is your brother doing with a Diesel fiat

unkel

crosstownk wrote: »

If it's not a common rail system then you should be OK.

All stilo diesels are common rail afaik. Fingers crossed no damage was done!

[Off topic] I can't remember the last time some one filled the car for me. Must be at least 10 years. Where was the filling station?

unkel

The Real B-man wrote: »

First of all what is your brother doing with a Diesel fiat

You probably don't know that FIAT invented the common rail diesel system. Every car manufacturer in the world that uses a common rail diesel engine (that means pretty much all of them) is paying FIAT a license fee for it every year

alias no.9

Unfortunately it is commonrail and at very high risk of ruining the injection system. The critical thing is how far he drove. There'll be between 0.5 and 1l of diesel in the filter so any more than about 5 to 10km and damage is probable.

L1011

The Real B-man wrote: »

First of all what is your brother doing with a Diesel fiat

Considering they make probably the best small diesels bar none, theres quite a few things he could be doing with it

Although I think the Stilo has the 1.9 Unijet - common rail diesel but without the multipoint injection.

Run_to_da_hills

alias no.9 wrote: »

Unfortunately it is commonrail and at very high risk of ruining the injection system. The critical thing is how far he drove. There'll be between 0.5 and 1l of diesel in the filter so any more than about 5 to 10km and damage is probable.

He drove about 1.5 k at the most and he made it back to the garage although it started to splutter a bit.

Plug

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

He drove about 1.5 k at the most and he made it back to the garage although it started to splutter a bit.

He should be alright then.

Run_to_da_hills

Plug wrote: »

He should be alright then.

Fingers x ed. He will get them to replace the fuel filter.

crosstownk

unkel wrote: »

Every car manufacturer in the world that uses a common rail diesel engine (that means pretty much all of them) is paying FIAT a license fee for it every year

Off topic I know, but was that by any chance during the GM input to Fiat? Is it possible that GM are making hay from it?

Plug

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Fingers x ed. He will get them to replace the fuel filter.

It will take more than the fliter. The tank has to come and more things.

Run_to_da_hills

Plug wrote: »

It will take more than the fliter. The tank has to come and more things.

Im sure their mechanic will know, if not it will be an expensive mistake for them.

crosstownk

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Im sure their mechanic will know, if not it will be an expensive mistake for them.

You're fully entitled to a second opinion from a Fiat dealer..........

E92

Fiat didn't invent common rail diesel.

Wikipedia.org wrote:

he common rail system prototype was developed in the late 1960s by Robert Huber of Switzerland. After that, the technology was further developed by Dr. Marco Ganser at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, later of Ganser-Hydromag AG (estb. 1995) in Oberägeri. In the mid-nineties, Dr. Shohei Itoh and Masahiko Miyaki, of the Denso Corporation, a Japanese automotive parts manufacturer, developed the Common Rail Fuel System for Heavy Duty Vehicles and finally turned into its first practical use on their ECD-U2 Common Rail system, which was mounted on the Hino Rising Ranger truck and sold for general use in 1995. Modern common rail systems, whilst working on the same principle, are governed by an engine control unit (ECU) which opens each injector electronically rather than mechanically. This was extensively prototyped in the 1990s, with collaboration between Magneti Marelli, Centro Ricerche Fiat and Elasis. After research and development by the Fiat Group, the design was acquired by the German company Robert Bosch GmbH for completion of development and making suitable for mass-production. In 1997 they extended its use for passenger cars. The first passenger car that used the common rail system was the 1997 model Alfa Romeo 156 1.9 JTD and later on that same year Mercedes-Benz E 320 CDI.
Common rail engines have been used in marine and locomotive applications for some time. The Cooper-Bessemer GN-8 (circa 1942) is an example of a hydraulically operated common rail diesel engine, also known as a modified common rail.

They invented it for cars yes, but that's not the same as saying they invented it;)!



All paraffin stove Stilos are common rail, Fiat had common rail Bravos(the one before the Stilo) after all!

L1011

crosstownk wrote: »

Off topic I know, but was that by any chance during the GM input to Fiat? Is it possible that GM are making hay from it?

GM tried and failed to get the rights from Fiat, there was a messy lawsuit over it. GM currently use Fiat built engines in a number of cars and do have some minor ownership of, erm, something - I think the factory in Tychy in Poland.

IIRC its impossible currently to make a modern common rail diesel without invoking patents from both Fiat and Robert Bosch, who were independently working on very similar technologies at the same time and cross-licenced patents with each other.

blackbox

MYOB wrote: »

Considering they make probably the best small diesels bar none, theres quite a few things he could be doing with it

Although I think the Stilo has the 1.9 Unijet - common rail diesel but without the multipoint injection.

How can a diesel (apart from a single cylinder engine, of course) work without multipoint injection?

L1011

blackbox wrote: »

How can a diesel (apart from a single cylinder engine, of course) work without multipoint injection?

Not thinking properly - was thinking about something petrol related.

Multi in Fiat's case refers to the number of jets injectors per cylinder, the second generation JTD engines are "MultiJet" whereas the Stilo has an original first-gen JTD Unijet - one injector per cylinder.

unkel

E92 wrote: »

Fiat didn't invent common rail diesel.

I'm not sure if that article is correct. Afaik, FIAT got Bosch to get it to work, retaining the rights. And not the other way around as per your link

crosstownk wrote: »

Off topic I know, but was that by any chance during the GM input to Fiat? Is it possible that GM are making hay from it?

The cynic in me reckons the main reason GM was eyeing up FIAT was because of the common rail diesel engine and its lucrative rights in the first place!

Run_to_da_hills

Ok back on topic. I learned enough about "common rail diesel pumps" and thank God I dont have one in my 01 Transit, they came out the following year.

The car is stuck in the offending service station forecourt over night with most of the fuel drained out. It has to be moved to the mechanic about 1/2 a mile away first thing in the morning. It will start and drive but I suggested he get it collected.

alias no.9

MYOB wrote: »

Not thinking properly - was thinking about something petrol related.

Multi in Fiat's case refers to the number of jets injectors per cylinder, the second generation JTD engines are "MultiJet" whereas the Stilo has an original first-gen JTD Unijet - one injector per cylinder.

I think you're a little bit off on that description.
The advantages of common rail come from the ability to do a multiple injections of fuel. On the basic ones a small amount of fuel, called the pilot injection, is injected, once that begins to combust, the remaining majority of the fuel is injected directly into the flame front.
On diesel engines a sonic boom occurs under compression ignition of fuel, since only the fuel from the pilot injection undergoes compression ignition, this boom is therefore minimised making commonrails run much quieter.
Multijet injection uses the same pilot injection system but instead of injecting the remainder of the fuel in one go, it injects it in multiple smaller shots through the power stroke, giving smoother power delivery. The original multijets used up to 5 individual injections per power stroke, there may be more on newer ones.
This all gets back to fiats intellectual property around common rail, it's not the delivery of fuel by a single high pressure line, that wasn't new, it's the combination of this with piezoelectric actuators and their control system that allow very precise opening and closing of individual injectors which enables the multiple injections per power stroke with very precise metering of fuel. That's what fiat invented and that's what makes the engines we know as common rail a world apart from older direct and indirect injection systems.
As an interesting aside, despite the association of the TDI label with VW and Audi, Fiat actually pioneered Turbo Direct Injection technology in cars and the first car to wear the TDI badge was the Fiat Croma in 1986.
Finally, and I know this is going way off topic, but I'd hazard a guess that the 900cc 2 cylinder petrol engines that will be featured in the Fiat 500 in a year or 2 will feature an adaptation of this kind of fuel injection technology. They will have direct injection and pulsing the fuel injection similar to common rail diesels will allow them to be much smoother and quieter than you might expect from a 2 cylinder.