A question for East Asians

Chunky Monkey

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum, I wasn't sure where to post this...

Something which popped up in a conversation a while ago, as an East Asian would you find the term 'oriental' offensive?

My apologies if this sounds like the childhood question 'do Black people find the term Black offensive when they're actually dark brown'.

To anybody who thinks this is a silly question of little consequence, my aim is avoid hurting anybody's feelings. I have no idea whether or not the term 'oriental' was/is used in a derogatory way similar to the word 'nig_ger' or 'half cast'.

Moriarty

Moved to.. er.. Humanities.

As far as I know, it has negative connotations.

<edit>From dictionary.com:

dictionary.com wrote:

Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental—meaning "eastern"—is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.

</edit>

<edit2> This probably would have been more suited to the Linguistics & Etymology board aswell come to think of it. Oh well </edit2>

DeVore

I was quite surprised to learn that Indians consider (and are considered!) asian. For some reason that wouldnt have occured to me to be applicable. I would have thought they probably deserved a designation all of their own (Indian, for example?).

Anyway, I learned something new that day. I also thought that Oriental was a neutral term.... I wouldnt object to being called an occidental though I can see the difference there.

DeV.

Chunky Monkey

Didn't think of humanities, thanks Moriarty.

Ye the Asian thing is strange to me too and technically I'm half Asian. Course there's Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Mauritius as well.

Usually when I refer to people from East Asia I say 'like people from China, Japan, Vietnam etc' but one word would be handier

dr_manhattan

Friend, there are black people who are not offended by the word "n**ger". Does that mean it's not an offensive word?

What I'm driving at is, how are you going to poll the opinions of the couple of billion east asians in the world, and then assimilate that information in such a way as to never offend any "east asian" ever?

Obviously any term can be offensive in the right context. Whilst I'd consider 'oriental' a perfectly harmless geographical/cultural term, I know a couple of people who would be at least puzzled and at worst insulted if I were to refer to them in company as "the orientals" instead of by their proper ****ing names.

Me, I'd imagine most non-white people would just rather be referred to without a suffix or a prefix: that instead of being "black people", "brown people" or "east asian people" they wouldn't mind being "people".

Strange, that.

After that - bizarrely enough! - I'd imagine each and every one of 'them' would have their own specific feelings and opinions about their race / culture / heritage.

After all, the implication of all these suffixes and prefixes is that white is the norm: when a bunch of people are white, we say "people" after all.

Ever get unexplainedly annoyed when someone can't stop referring to you as irish, for example? I know that slowly but surely it annoys the piss out of me ;-)

Only idiots like Lenny Henry attempt to speak "for their people" ;-)

Bottle_of_Smoke

Never thought Oriental was offensive, though me & a friend created a possible solution a while back when trying to describe south/central asians.

Orientals would be referred to as Asians, anyone from Turkey to Bangledesh are "Wasians", cause they're more West than Orientals.

dr_manhattan

It's funny that, cos to me:

Koreans are from Korea.
Chinese are from China.
Vietnamese from Vietnam... and so on.
Are persians "wasian" then? Or are they from the "middle east"?

It's so retarded.

There is no category that in any way describes everyone in asia. Is the term "european" accurate? "south american"?

If you want to say "people with yellow skin and slant eyes" then go ahead... cos that's what you're effectively saying by categorising everyone in a bucket like that.

And if you don't know what country someone's from... then why is it important to describe them? IN what situations are these terms used - or indeed, what caused you and your friend to think them up?

Chunky Monkey

People constantly ask me am I Spanish and look surprised when they hear my accent. Spanish people ask me this too (in Spanish!) and a Portugese guy asked me the other day if I'm Spanish and then said I don't look Spanish I look Latin.

Me ma is from Mauritius and me da is from Dublin. Mauritius itself is quite a multicultural nation so I suppose I'm Irish-Indo-Mauritian..from England...

Labelling can be confusing.

I see what you're saying about 'categorising everyone in a bucket' but sometimes there are situations when you need/want to. For example I noticed in Burger King in Blanch how one time I went in there and everyone behind the til was 'oriental' I'll say for now. I have no idea whether they were from Japan or China or Taiwan etc. Another time I went in and everyone behind the til weren't oriental but Asian ie possibly from Bangladesh, Pakistan, India etc. The two groups are all from Asia but look distinctly different. How do I differentiate between them in a conversation? There's nothing racist about it, it was merely an observation- does Burger King find that people work more efficiently as a team when they're from the same country or do they hire from different countries at a time or do they fancy hiring people who look the same (in the eyes of the Irish).

Syke

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

People constantly ask me am I Spanish and look surprised when they hear my accent. Spanish people ask me this too (in Spanish!) and a Portugese guy asked me the other day if I'm Spanish and then said I don't look Spanish I look Latin.

I'm half asian too When I was growing up I was always mistaken for spanish, probably because of spanish students and probably because there were (at the time) so few asians in Ireland.

I prefer the term asian, although it took me a while as a kid to realise I wasn't white! I wouldn't take offence to oriental (usually in Ireland the term "oriental-looking" is bandied about).

Funnily, I know a girl who is half Mauritian in Ireland. I don't think you're the same

Chunky Monkey

Probably not, I don't know any other half Asian peeps Never met another Irish Mauritian before...

Dades

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Me, I'd imagine most non-white people would just rather be referred to without a suffix or a prefix: that instead of being "black people", "brown people" or "east asian people" they wouldn't mind being "people".

What do mean non-white people? Are you saying that people have to be differentiated by the colour of their skin? OMG you racialist.

Seriously, it's posts like yours that makes people afraid to say anything for fear of crossing the encroaching PC line.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

There is no category that in any way describes everyone in asia. Is the term "european" accurate? "south american"?

If you want to say "people with yellow skin and slant eyes" then go ahead... cos that's what you're effectively saying by categorising everyone in a bucket like that.

Well European is certainly used a lot - just obviously not in Europe. Would you have a flap if some foreign tourist guide described your camera-toting group as "Europeans"?

There's racism and there's simple categorisation. Get some darned perspective.

damnyanks

northern european
continental
eastern european
asian
orietanl
american
hispanic

dr_manhattan

"Seriously, it's posts like yours that makes people afraid to say anything for fear of crossing the encroaching PC line."

Well to be honest I could care less about people who are so damn timid with their opinions... and I am tired of this talk of the "encroaching PC line" like it's something that's hard to live with.

What PC line, where, and how does it affect you so badly that you have the right to whinge just because you're asked to think about how you speak?

Even this thread: this isn't a "question for asians" at all. It's a question for other white people, more than anything. You think there's some "asian" that's gonna give you the rules on behalf of "all asians" or something?

"Well European is certainly used a lot - just obviously not in Europe."

N**ger is used a lot too, just not in africa so much: does that make it more accurate? Better? More usable? Or am I "PC bashing" you?

I'm not comparing the two terms btw - but I am saying that whether it's used a lot or not doesn't change anything: if someone described you as european you'd find it silly, no?

Meaningless, no? Perhaps even... stupid? When irish is in fact what you are (or indeed wherever you're from)

I mean, do you feel like you're the same as a brit, german, or belarusian?

The term would mean that you could speak any of about 30 languages, have any manner of complexion and come from a land locked, island, coastal or even arctic climate. It means nothing, just like "asian".

And as a side issue: when you look at the fact that asia (and everywhere else) has been conquered and subjugated by our worldview, you might be able to understand why it's annoying, or at the least fraught with that "oh they all look the same to me" sentiment?

I mean, that's why the question was asked, right?

"Would you have a flap if some foreign tourist guide described your camera-toting group as "Europeans"?"

1. I don't hang out in "camera toting groups" nor near tourist guides. Never, ever, ever except when I'm in ireland, cos I work in temple bar unfortunately.

2. I'm not in a "flap" about the term "asian", I am saying it's a stupid term. YOu seem to think I'm angry... or something: the term "scared" puzzles me.

3. I have ridiculed many people before for using the term. Off the top of my head I have slagged asians, north africans and irish people for using the term.

4. It's funny how you assume I'm european.

And as a final note:

Whatever "fear" some white european may feel when upbraided about his or her worldview, it's nothing compared to life outside of the golden whitepeople circle. I really honestly don't care about this fashionabkle notion that white europeans are somehow being persecuted by the "PC brigade" (a vague term basically meaning white malcontents and all their foreign/gay/handicapped friends)

These issues are constantly and conveniently ignored by us white people, and then when the fact that our terms of reference are offensive, condescending and infuriating to others is pointed out to us we go all:

"ooooh! I'm being oppressed by the PC army! Heeelp! I'm afraid to be told I'm wrong!"

And it's always a "PC Brigade" or "PC militia" or "PC police" - never just the person you're speaking to at the time. It's a conspiracy, of course it is, because why else challenge someone except to score points for your "side".

In closing then, to repeat:

The term Asian is so limited in meaning as to be useless. This is not a criticism of you, or your nice life. This is an attempt to answer a question properly.

Stop whinging about it and either up your game and find a new word or else stop asking dumb questions and then complaining cos you don't like the response: or do you resist my line of logic because I'm "not asian" and therefore not allowed to comment?

You one of those people who asks black people whether something "is racist or not" - cos obviously they'll know?

smh

Red Hand

dr_manhattan wrote: »

What PC line, where, and how does it affect you so badly that you have the right to whinge just because you're asked to think about how you speak?

Even this thread: this isn't a "question for asians" at all. It's a question for other white people, more than anything. You think there's some "asian" that's gonna give you the rules on behalf of "all asians" or something?

"Well European is certainly used a lot - just obviously not in Europe."

N**ger is used a lot too, just not in africa so much: does that make it more accurate? Better? More usable? Or am I "PC bashing" you?

I'm not comparing the two terms btw - but I am saying that whether it's used a lot or not doesn't change anything: if someone described you as european you'd find it silly, no?

Meaningless, no? Perhaps even... stupid? When irish is in fact what you are (or indeed wherever you're from)


The term would mean that you could speak any of about 30 languages, have any manner of complexion and come from a land locked, island, coastal or even arctic climate. It means nothing, just like "asian".

Huh? I do consider myself European. Irish and European. I mean, I do live in in Ireland which is in Europe and pay taxes to the EU. Even if Ireland wasn't in the EU, Irish people would still be European. Both Gaelic and English are Indo European languages. And Europe is where we live, even if we do live on an island. Your are not suggesting that just because the Isle of Ski is an island, it is therefore, not part of Britain?

You talk of European being meaningless, but methinks you are projecting how I am supposed to think? I mean, being "Irish" could equally be meaningless, considering that Ireland was never a seperate political entity until the 1920s, yet you seem to think that being "Irish" is what we are, not European?

And as a side issue: when you look at the fact that asia (and everywhere else) has been conquered and subjugated by our worldview, you might be able to understand why it's annoying, or at the least fraught with that "oh they all look the same to me" sentiment?

I mean, that's why the question was asked, right?

So, one if an American in his home town met a group of Europeans of different nationalities in his local bar, got talking with them for a few hours and later described the group as "European" to his wife, that would be wrong?

"Would you have a flap if some foreign tourist guide described your camera-toting group as "Europeans"?"

1. I don't hang out in "camera toting groups" nor near tourist guides. Never, ever, ever except when I'm in ireland, cos I work in temple bar unfortunately.

2. I'm not in a "flap" about the term "asian", I am saying it's a stupid term. YOu seem to think I'm angry... or something: the term "scared" puzzles me.

3. I have ridiculed many people before for using the term. Off the top of my head I have slagged asians, north africans and irish people for using the term.

4. It's funny how you assume I'm european.

And as a final note:

Whatever "fear" some white european may feel when upbraided about his or her worldview, it's nothing compared to life outside of the golden whitepeople circle. I really honestly don't care about this fashionabkle notion that white europeans are somehow being persecuted by the "PC brigade" (a vague term basically meaning white malcontents and all their foreign/gay/handicapped friends)

These issues are constantly and conveniently ignored by us white people, and then when the fact that our terms of reference are offensive, condescending and infuriating to others is pointed out to us we go all:

"ooooh! I'm being oppressed by the PC army! Heeelp! I'm afraid to be told I'm wrong!"

And it's always a "PC Brigade" or "PC militia" or "PC police" - never just the person you're speaking to at the time. It's a conspiracy, of course it is, because why else challenge someone except to score points for your "side".

In closing then, to repeat:

The term Asian is so limited in meaning as to be useless. This is not a criticism of you, or your nice life. This is an attempt to answer a question properly.

Stop whinging about it and either up your game and find a new word or else stop asking dumb questions and then complaining cos you don't like the response: or do you resist my line of logic because I'm "not asian" and therefore not allowed to comment?

You one of those people who asks black people whether something "is racist or not" - cos obviously they'll know?

smh

Jeez! You do seem to be angry about something.

Chunky Monkey

I had typed out a long reply earlier but it didn't load and I can't be bothered to do it again.

You say you aren't comparing terms like '******' with terms like asian but I think you are which is very silly because they are like butter and apples. Somehow I don't think saying asian is going to have the same effect...

And yes black people may use the word '******' but in doing so they're making fun of a word that was used when they were seen to be second class citizens. Plus you won't hear white people saying it to blacks unless they're good friends or they intend offence.

Like Jerimiah said above calling yourself European when you are from Europe and identify with it isn't silly. Just like calling myself mixed race isn't because well I am.

And no my question was not for other (??) white people. As it simply states in the title, it was a question for East Asians and remains so.

Red Hand

Furthermore,

dr_manhattan wrote: »

It's funny that, cos to me:

Koreans are from Korea.
Chinese are from China.
Vietnamese from Vietnam... and so on.

is being Chinese equally as meaningless as Asian or European? I mean, it spans nearly the same area as Europe and has many different languages and cultures, eg, Han, Tadjeck, inner Mongolian etc etc?

There is no category that in any way describes everyone in asia. Is the term "european" accurate? "south american"?

I agree. But then again, "French person" doesn't describe everyone in France either? It may describe someone who speaks only Occitan.

If you want to say "people with yellow skin and slant eyes" then go ahead... cos that's what you're effectively saying by categorising everyone in a bucket like that.

And if you don't know what country someone's from... then why is it important to describe them? IN what situations are these terms used - or indeed, what caused you and your friend to think them up?

Dades

dr_manhattan wrote: »

2. I'm not in a "flap" about the term "asian", I am saying it's a stupid term. YOu seem to think I'm angry... or something: the term "scared" puzzles me.

I'm afraid your big flappy post kinda contradicts that.