Goverment spying on everything we do?

El_mariachi

The Irish public should be aware that by the end of March 2008, the Irish Government will begin mass digital surveillance, noting when we log on and log off the internet, as well as every email we send and who we send it to.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/in-a-state-of-surveillance-1301589.html

Isn't this against the law?

Anyone?

buckfast4me

Not any more.. just curious like most irish isps as far as I know already log everything for 5 years through some legal requirement. What sites we visit, when we visit them, etc. The data itself is not logged, example if u download a 4gb movie file, they wont log every bit of the file transferred just the fact that u have requested to begin the download.

It is a bit worrying alright but I dont see how its any different than the situation now.

phantom_lord

El_mariachi wrote: »

Isn't this against the law?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here...and say no.

El_mariachi

So they are already doing it?

Thats crazy.

robinph

Nothing really to worry about, they will not know what to do with all the data that they collect and so it will just end up getting lost on a laptop left in the back of a taxi in a couple of months and then be up for grabs to the lowest bidder on ebay shortly after that.

mikemac

Draconian laws?
The government has fantastic powers already.

People are still being charged with the Offences against the State Act.
A law that was drawn up in 1939 and used to convict and hang people like IRA terrorists during WWII.

You can be convicted in the Special Criminal Court and sentanced to life without a jury. Usually three judges but it could also be three army officers, doesn't have to be judges.
You can be convicted on the word of a senior garda.

We have strong laws in Ireland already OP, the problem is we don't have draconian enforcement.
And I can't see this law being any different

FunkZ

Meh I couldn't give a ****. 'OMGzzz Arr was onza Bebo for 43 minutes taday lolz'.

flanum

tinfoil hat time!

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

they've been recording our phonecalls etc for a very long time. we have the most surveillance of any nation in europe apart from the uk.

probably the reason i'm in the uk at the moment - bored at not having every moment of my life recorded.

galwayrush

No need to worry about the idiots in our Goverment doing anything with what they record.:rolleyes:

Black Swan

Welcome to the Brave New World...:eek:

chopperbyrne

As long as you're not viewing anything illegal you shouldn't care.

Adam

Roundtower2 wrote: »

they've been recording our phonecalls etc for a very long time. we have the most surveillance of any nation in europe apart from the uk.

probably the reason i'm in the uk at the moment - bored at not having every moment of my life recorded.

Says who?

gerky

There was a thread over in broadband a while back about this, I'm not sure people realize just how far this goes, this is from the directive

Categories of data to be retained
1. Member States shall ensure that the following categories of
data are retained under this Directive:
(a) data necessary to trace and identify the source of a
communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile
telephony:
(i) the calling telephone number;
(ii) the name and address of the subscriber or registered
user;
(2) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet
telephony:
(i) the user ID(s) allocated;
(ii) the user ID and telephone number allocated to any
communication entering the public telephone
network;
(iii) the name and address of the subscriber or registered
user to whom an Internet Protocol (IP) address, user
ID or telephone number was allocated at the time of
the communication;
(b) data necessary to identify the destination of a
communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile
telephony:
(i) the number(s) dialled (the telephone number(s)
called), and, in cases involving supplementary services
such as call forwarding or call transfer, the
number or numbers to which the call is routed;
(ii) the name(s) and address(es) of the subscriber(s) or
registered user(s);
13.4.2006 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 105/57
(2) concerning Internet e-mail and Internet telephony:
(i) the user ID or telephone number of the intended
recipient(s) of an Internet telephony call;
(ii) the name(s) and address(es) of the subscriber(s) or
registered user(s) and user ID of the intended recipient
of the communication;
(c) data necessary to identify the date, time and duration of a
communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony,
the date and time of the start and end of the
communication;
(2) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet
telephony:
(i) the date and time of the log-in and log-off of the
Internet access service, based on a certain time zone,
together with the IP address, whether dynamic or
static, allocated by the Internet access service provider
to a communication, and the user ID of the
subscriber or registered user;
(ii) the date and time of the log-in and log-off of the
Internet e-mail service or Internet telephony service,
based on a certain time zone;
(d) data necessary to identify the type of communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony:
the telephone service used;
(2) concerning Internet e-mail and Internet telephony: the
Internet service used;
(e) data necessary to identify users’ communication equipment
or what purports to be their equipment:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony, the calling
and called telephone numbers;
(2) concerning mobile telephony:
(i) the calling and called telephone numbers;
(ii) the International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI)
of the calling party;
(iii) the International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI)
of the calling party;
(iv) the IMSI of the called party;
(v) the IMEI of the called party;
(vi) in the case of pre-paid anonymous services, the date
and time of the initial activation of the service and
the location label (Cell ID) from which the service
was activated;
(3) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet
telephony:
(i) the calling telephone number for dial-up access;
(ii) the digital subscriber line (DSL) or other end point
of the originator of the communication;
(f) data necessary to identify the location of mobile communication
equipment:
(1) the location label (Cell ID) at the start of the
communication;
(2) data identifying the geographic location of cells by reference
to their location labels (Cell ID) during the period
for which communications data are retained.
2. No data revealing the content of the communication may be
retained pursuant to this Directive.

And the (well if your not doing anything wrong) argument doesn't float with me, I'm guessing in your day to day life you don't do anything wrong so does that mean you should be alright with someone tracking everything you do.
Also what happens when the info is lost or stolen.

Black Swan

chopperbyrne wrote: »

As long as you're not viewing anything illegal you shouldn't care.

I knew that someone would say this! Where's Jonathan Swift when you need him? He could parody this statement to the extreme, make us all laugh, while showing how the erosion of privacy rights for lawabiding citizens gradually occurs overtime with just such a justification.

Recently student government fought cams in the classrooms on our campus. The law enforcement types claimed that "if you are not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't mind being watched (spied upon) in your learning environment." Well, let's put a cam in the bedroom too, cause "if you are not doing something wrong, why should you mind?"

FruitLover

How does one 'log on' or 'log off the internet'?

I forsee anonymous proxies and onion routing systems becoming more and more popular as time goes on.

Roundtower2 wrote: »

probably the reason i'm in the uk at the moment - bored at not having every moment of my life recorded.

Yeah, there's no possible way the British government would have the resources to do the same (*cough* GCHQ) :rolleyes:

Riddle101

If they do come onto this forum site then they'll prberly spend most of their time on the Politics forums. I doubt they're going to care about what we get up to on After Hours

Invincible

I read that if you get a non EU email address,they won't be able to monitor your mail.

Helix

surely the only mail they can monitor is if youre using your isps provided mail, eg eircom

theyre hardly going to be able to monitor gmail, or hotmail etc

Rb

Ah, don't you just love how our Government blow the tax payers money?

What I would give to see every Fianna Fail member and those who voted for them thrown into the gas chambers. Oh well, maybe some day...

Black Swan

Invincible wrote: »

I read that if you get a non EU email address,they won't be able to monitor your mail.

And the real name of the NSA is "No Such Agency...";)

mikemac

rb_ie wrote: »

What I would give to see every Fianna Fail member and those who voted for them thrown into the gas chambers. Oh well, maybe some day...

That could well be your parents! And if not them, I'd gurantee someone in your family did, probably an older relation like an aunt or uncle.

So come off the internet hard man talk. Warrior behind a keyboard :rolleyes:

Clytus

Sure the Americans,Canadians,Australians and British have been monitoring all our electronic communications since the 80s using ECHELON. It monitors millions of communications traffic in search of keywords.

TBH...I dont really care or mind. I loved the way there was bit of a hoha over the failings of the American intelligence angencies post 9/11,yet when thier intelligence gathering methods are revealed theres an outcry of privacy invasion.

I personally think theres so much going on in the world that we just dont know about....and the stuff that the media reports is only the tip of the iceberg..its the stuff we are being allowed to know.

But think about it,the world is a much safer place today than it was...so really if your not doing anything illegal you shouldnt have too much to worry about.

Rb

micmclo wrote: »

That could well be your parents! And if not them, I'd gurantee someone in your family did, probably an older relation like an aunt or uncle.

So come off the internet hard man talk. Warrior behind a keyboard :rolleyes:

My parents are smarter than to vote for those clowns, I know who they voted for and it wasn't FF. My grandparents, for the most part, are dead. The one living grandparent wouldn't make it to a polling station.

If the rest of my relatives voted for FF, then they deserve the gas chambers. I'm not close to them, so by all means take 'em away to the camps and get it done.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Mirror wrote: »

Says who?

It's an internet forum - stuff doesn't have to be true to be posted! Thought i heard that though. Isn't there some building on Stephens' Green that has been recording all calls, text messages etc for ages?

For example, in the Joe Reilly murder trial they were able to show all his phonecalls and text messages.

FruitLover wrote: »

Yeah, there's no possible way the British government would have the resources to do the same (*cough* GCHQ) :rolleyes:

Actually meant that there is even more surveillance over here in the UK.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

rb_ie wrote: »

My parents are smarter than to vote for those clowns, I know who they voted for and it wasn't FF. My grandparents, for the most part, are dead. The one living grandparent wouldn't make it to a polling station.

If the rest of my relatives voted for FF, then they deserve the gas chambers. I'm not close to them, so by all means take 'em away to the camps and get it done.

All that you're saying here is that your family have been on the losing side of elections for a long time

FF have been in power for longer than any other political party in the country by a huge margin. The country isn't doing too bad. Maybe the party has flaws, and probably a lot of flaws, but they must have done something right.

We are probably the most successful economy in Europe. That is mainly due to ourselves, but it is also partially due to political circumstances.

People, by and large, don't make repeated mistakes. If FF had no benefits, then people would have learned this and moved on to another party.


/ the biggest problem imo is that all the opposition parties are crap

Latchy

God be with the days when only the village operator was able to listen in to the trunk call and spread the gossip around the town ie, mary o sullivans brother tom is coming down from Dublin to inherit the farm ...... :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

It won't be too long when every financial transaction you make will pinpoint your exact position on this planet.

daveharnett

chopperbyrne wrote: »

As long as you're not viewing anything illegal you shouldn't care.

Ah, that old chestnut. Please please go and read 1984.

JavaBear

riot?

Peteee

Clearly nobody read the thing, look at the end line

2. No data revealing the content of the communication may be
retained pursuant to this Directive.

So yeah they log numbers and what not (Your phone company does this anyways for billing, routing, cell location information which is necessary for the working of you mobile phone (Your mobile company knows where you are to within 100 meters) etc) but then this happens anyway.

They dont keep track of the contents of you emails or what websites you visit. SMS's would probably be retained mind (Redelivery etc)

Cunny-Funt

But what's the point of all this? What can our Gov do and why do they care? I can understand the paranoid US gov, Chinese gov etc pulling this ****.

But why the Irish Government of all Governments? Surprised they can even pull it off.

But what's the goal of all this?

princess-sprkle

chopperbyrne wrote: »

As long as you're not viewing anything illegal you shouldn't care.

that old argument always comes up & it doesn't wash with me. I'm not doing anything illegal but i still don't want the government to have that sort of power.

Rb

Roundtower2 wrote: »

/ the biggest problem imo is that all the opposition parties are crap

The biggest problem, imo, is too many old people stuck in their ways

The Real B-man

flanum wrote: »

tinfoil hat time!

gerky

Peteee wrote: »

Clearly nobody read the thing, look at the end line



So yeah they log numbers and what not (Your phone company does this anyways for billing, routing, cell location information which is necessary for the working of you mobile phone (Your mobile company knows where you are to within 100 meters) etc) but then this happens anyway.

They dont keep track of the contents of you emails or what websites you visit. SMS's would probably be retained mind (Redelivery etc)

No actually websites visited will be recorded to what extent I'm not sure (as in theres a huge difference between logging that I visited boards.ie or say what threads I read or post)

I'll try to put the basics in plain terms these are as far as I know.

When you log on and off the net.

What sites you visit.

what emails you send and receive the header (not the contents) and who those emails are to and from also times and dates involved.

Instant messages (not contents) who your chatting to/receiving IM's from time and dates involved.

Where your accessing the net from.

Who you ring for how long and where you are when you start and finish the call, all phone details of both parties involved.

Who you receive calls from and all of the above again.

Who you text and receive texts from and all of the above again.

Theres a lot more involved but thats the basics.

ve

the data itself is not logged, example if u download a 4gb movie file, they wont log every bit of the file transferred just the fact that u have requested to begin the download.

What is the definition of "u have requested to begin the download", because I can think of multiple situations whereby a request can be sent without "u" ever knowing about it.

they will not know what to do with all the data that they collect

Agreed. I believe they will eventually get some group in, which will do some mining. There will be a media scare on their findings, with the sole purpose of trying to scare people in to changing their net usage patterns.

I forsee anonymous proxies and onion routing systems becoming more and more popular as time goes on.

Then ISP's will start to flag a high level of traffic bound to/from a single node outside as suspicious. It's not so much the destination we're trying to hide from, but rather the next couple of hops outside your own private network.

I read that if you get a non EU email address,they won't be able to monitor your mail.

I can't see how it could be any different. They can monitor traffic, rather than sitting down browsing through your email account.

theyre hardly going to be able to monitor gmail, or hotmail etc

They're over SSL, but technically can still be retrieved.

It won't be too long when every financial transaction you make will pinpoint your exact position on this plane

.
They're doing this now I expect. I make very few cash transactions these days. Ever since my bank insisted on replacing my ATM card with a Laser/ATM. Hmmm...there's some intresting stats afoot.

---

To be honest it's a huge ball of complexity this whole tracking thing. On one end we've got us netizens doing what we do online. Then we've got the systems that we use (because I don't know about you, but I have actually used a computer outside my own house). Then we've got the sites we visit, services we use. We've got patterns of behaviour. Then we've got systems to monitor our behaviour. These systems are generally configured a certain way, looking for specific things. Their job technically, to find specific patterns of behaviour and then trace that back to a human (the offender). Not to mention the dynamics of collaboration between various government and contracted departments/groups involved.

That is a long chain of (systems and relationships). Then we've got a situation whereby someone in government finally understands that there is a need for monitoring (not necessarily understand why, but just that there is a need). They get their photo on the front page of the Irish Independent or Times with a senior member of the Guards and a laptop diplaying a website detailing their "master plan".ie. Where money was thrown in to a "project" by the government and some consultant laughs all the way to the bank while doing something like

Filter a high number of requests to sites of a controvercial nature from a single IP. They'd probably spend half the year trying to distingishing porn hungry teenagers from DoS web bots. But by Chirst when they do catch someone, we'll have Ann Doyle on 6 One trying to scare us all.

thelordofcheese

ve wrote: »

But by Chirst when they do catch someone, we'll have Ann Doyle on 6 One trying to scare us all.

Ann Doyle already scares me, that neck is not of this earth....