Parisse try pass : forward or not?

Sandwich

Can someone please clear this up definitively.
All the commentators that I heard called Parrise's pass for their 2nd try forward on Saturday - because they say the ball clearly went forward. It does, but Parisse is also clearly ahead of the ball as it touches the ground before it is picked up. It thought this would mean that the pass was not forward, i.e. it travelled backwards relative to the player, and so there was no refereeing mistake and the try was good.

Podge_irl

The laws make no reference to relative motion. They simply state that the ball must be passed back towards your own goal-line. I thought the pass was marginal but fine.

damienom

Was only debating this with a lad in the job this morning. He just sent me the link to this on YouTube

Sandwich

Nice link. Thanks very much.

That was my understanding of it. Parisse was at full tilt hence the clear forward movement of the ball, but the pass still backwards and legal.
If you dont look at Parisse as the ball touches the ground (to see that he is ahead of the bouncing ball), it looks bad in this case because the pass goes to ground rather than directly to hand. It looks worse because there is no clear receiver holding a line with Parisse to have him passing backwards to.

Fair play to the ref for calling it correctly, but why dont our 'expert' commentators know the rule?

Sandwich

Podge_irl wrote: »

The laws make no reference to relative motion. They simply state that the ball must be passed back towards your own goal-line. I thought the pass was marginal but fine.

There is no need to explicitly refer to relative motion, but refs must keep it in mind when judging whether a forward moving ball was passed back towards the goal line by a forward moving player. Obviously it doesnt matter when the player is stationary or moving backwards - the ball most move backwards realtive to the pitch.

Stealdo

That vid gives a great explanation - the only problem being that it says that "according to the law the referee must judge a forward pass purely on the passing action of the passer and not be influenced by the movement of the ball relative to the ground" when the law actually states "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To be honest I think the interpretation in the video makes more sense, but it is not true to say that it reflects the law.

marco_polo

Stealdo wrote: »

That vid gives a great explanation - the only problem being that it says that "according to the law the referee must judge a forward pass purely on the passing action of the passer and not be influenced by the movement of the ball relative to the ground" when the law actually states "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

To be honest I think the interpretation in the video makes more sense, but it is not true to say that it reflects the law.

I seems to be completely left up to the subjective call of the referee as the law is rather vague. I know that rugby league has a "momentum rule" that addresses this situation, but union has no such formal defination one way or another.

For me I would tend to prefer the interpretation that once the passing motion is not forward then it is not a forward pass.

Crash

aye, i think the idea that i would see is that once the ball is not passed or thrown forward, - that is, if you take a freeze frame of that moment and look at the direction of the players hands and ball position, that it is aimed backwards. Otherwise most passes in rugby would be marked down as forward.

Stealdo

marco_polo wrote: »

I seems to be completely left up to the subjective call of the referee as the law is rather vague. I know that rugby league has a "momentum rule" that addresses this situation, but union has no such formal defination one way or another.

For me I would tend to prefer the interpretation that once the passing motion is not forward then it is not a forward pass.

I think the law is quite clear - it says "towards the opposing teams dead ball line". That to me means very clearly that if it is closer to the opposition goal line when it hits the ground or another player than it was when it left your hand it is forward. which is the exact opposite to what is in the video above.
To interpret it like that though would as is said above mean that half the passes in the game are forward. The instance of the tackled player just looks too wrong to be let go mind you.

The video might go some way to explaining the interpretation of the forward pass below the equator.

Downtime

Stealdo wrote: »

I think the law is quite clear - it says "towards the opposing teams dead ball line". That to me means very clearly that if it is closer to the opposition goal line when it hits the ground or another player than it was when it left your hand it is forward.

It is the throwing action and not where the ball ends up. There is no mention of 'forward pass' in rugby law. The throwing action must be sideways or backwards. Due to the laws of physics the ball can then move forward. The law also says if the ball is not thrown forward but it hits a player or the ground and bounces forward, this is not a throw-forward.

It is perfectly legal to throw the ball flat and for the ball to travel in a foward motion towards the goal line of the opposition as the ball has been initially thrown away from the goal line.

Stealdo

Downtime wrote: »

It is the throwing action and not where the ball ends up. There is no mention of 'forward pass' in rugby law. The throwing action must be sideways or backwards. Due to the laws of physics the ball can then move forward. The law also says if the ball is not thrown forward but it hits a player or the ground and bounces forward, this is not a throw-forward.

It is perfectly legal to throw the ball flat and for the ball to travel in a foward motion towards the goal line of the opposition as the ball has been initially thrown away from the goal line.

:rolleyes:

Just in case it wasn't 100% clear the first 2 times I posted it. This is exactly what it says in "Rugby law" (Law 12 if you want to look it up)
"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

That couldn't be more clear. It says the exact opposite to what you say.
You contradict yourself - you say there's no mention of a forward pass but it does say what's not a forward pass?
(Unless you're being totally pedantic and distinguishing between a forward pass and a throw forward?)

marco_polo

Stealdo wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Just in case it wasn't 100% clear the first 2 times I posted it. This is exactly what it says in "Rugby law" (Law 12 if you want to look it up)
"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

That couldn't be more clear. It says the exact opposite to what you say.
You contradict yourself - you say there's no mention of a forward pass but it does say what's not a forward pass?
(Unless you're being totally pedantic and distinguishing between a forward pass and a throw forward?)

Deleting a few words from the middle I think the law is should be read as follows:

"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

If the ball is not passed in a forward direction then it is not a forward pass regardless of what the law of physics get up to after the fact.

If you apply the following the standards you are setting I would conservativly estimate that at least 50% of all passes are forward in a rugby match as any "flat pass" would automatically be forward in a technical.

In any case I think the proper defination of a forward pass is "if the referee says it is".

Stealdo

marco_polo wrote: »

Deleting a few words from the middle I think the law is should be read as follows:

"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

If the ball is not passed in a forward direction then it is not a forward pass regardless of what the law of physics get up to after the fact.

If you apply the following the standards you are setting I would conservativly estimate that at least 50% of all passes are forward in a rugby match as any "flat pass" would automatically be forward in a technical.

In any case I think the proper defination of a forward pass is "if the referee says it is".

I agree with you completely - just pointing out that the law itself doesn't allow for this, contrary to what it says in the video, and contrary to what some people are insisting here. This is one of the times where the way the referees 'interpret' the law is beneficial to the game. Unlike the put in to a scrum/lineout being straight among others.