Irish Student Archery Constitution (Final Version)

Private Ryan

(the layout that boards allows makes it hard to make it clear but I've sent word format of the con to all the club captains)

The titles, headings and marginal notes in this document are for the purpose of explanations only and do not form any part of this constitution. The singulars shall include the plurals, the masculine shall include the feminine and bodies corporate.

1. Name
I.The name shall be The Irish Student Archery Association (here on the Association)
2. Aims and Objectives:
I.To act as a governing body for third level archers
II.To promote and instil an abiding interest in all forms of Archery in Irish third level institutions except for bow hunting.
III.To encourage and nurture the competitive aspect of the sport by means of, but not limited to, intervarsity competitions.
IV.The association is affiliated to the IAAA
V.To provide information for students and institutions on the sport through any available media and aid in the formation of new clubs.
VI.To create a forum for discussion of ideas and problems and allow these to be communicated to the IAAA on behalf of the clubs involved in the Association.
VII.To aid the creation of a national student team to compete at international level.
VIII.To create a standard agreed format for intervarsity competition to be used in the Intervarsity league.
IX.To actively seek sponsorship for the league and team in order to provide the best facilities possible for all involved.
3. Members:
I.All third level institutions who shoot in the Intervarsity League are automatically members of the association
II.All members shall be bound by this constitution.
4. Governing Executive Committee:
I.The Association shall have a Governing Executive Committee (The Committee).
II.The committee shall be the management structure of the Association
III.The Committee shall run the Association on behalf of its’ members and in accordance with the aims and objectives and in the best interest of the sport.
IV.The Committee shall consist of persons, who where a full time student any time within the previous year, from third level institutions which entered an archer in at least half of the previous year’s Intervarsity League Competitions (IVs)
V.The committee shall meet at their discretion, but at least four times in an academic year.
a.The quorum for such meeting shall be 2/3 of the committee
b.Although decisions should be arrived at by the consensus of the committee (where possible), committee decisions shall be decided by majority voting.
c.All committee members are required to attend at least four times a year. Those who fail to fulfil this requirement may be the subject of disciplinary proceedings at the discretion of the committee
VI.The Committee shall consist of:
a.Chairperson
b.Secretary
c.Public Relations Officer
d.Children’s Officer
e.Webmaster
f.Records officer
VII.The IAAA Student Representative may also attend committee meetings, however will only have a vote in the case of a tie committee. This person will chair, AGM/ EGM
VIII.The Term of Office of these elected officers shall be one year.
a.The term of office of the Student rep. is as defined by the IAAA
IX.A person shall not hold the same office for more than 2 successive years.
X.In the case that that there is a tie in the elections of the officers extra ordinary member positions can be created

5. Election of the Governing Executive Committee:
I.The committee members shall be democratically elected at the Annual General Meeting (AGM) or at an Extra-ordinary General Meeting (EGM).
II.Each member institution may put two people up for election. These candidates may run for any number of positions.
III.Each position shall be decided by a ballot of the attendees at the AGM/EGM
IV.The proposed candidate has the right to decline the post if he/she chooses
6. Duties of Governing Executive Committee:
I.The Chairperson shall be:
a.the chief officer of the Association whose functions include chairing all meetings of the committee.
b.the Chair of any meeting shall have an ordinary vote at committee meetings.
c.be an ex-officio member of any committee or sub-committee set up by the club.
II.The Secretary shall:
a.be in charge of all correspondence and records of the Association.
b.keep minutes of all committee meetings, of all general meetings, of the Annual General Meeting or any other meetings relating to the business of the Association when requested by the committee.
c.Keep records of authorisation of expenditure and shall act as a financial advisor to the association.
d.give notice to all members of the Association's meetings, events and functions.
III.The Children’s Officer shall be responsible for all individuals under 18 who participate in the member clubs
IV.The Public Relations Officer shall:
a.be responsible for the advertising of all functions of the Association through all means feasible.
b.deal with external correspondence and maintain records of the contribution from outside bodies to the Association and to give notice to all members of these contributions.
V.The Records Officer shall:
a.keep records of all scores achieved at IV competitions for as long as feasible.
b.keep a record of all current league records.
VI.The Webmaster shall:
a.maintain the Website for the Association and report all feedback from the site at the next available meeting.
b.maintain the E-mail income for the Association and ensure all committee members may view all mail received.
c.display any articles on our site committee members submit in accordance with section 2.
VII.The Ordinary Committee members:
a.have no fixed directive but are free to assist any other committee member with that member's duties.
b.shall have the same voting privileges at all meetings that the rest of the Committee have.
7. Dismissal and Resignation of Committee Members:
I.No member of the committee shall be dismissed from office unless:
a.Written notice of a resolution to seek such a dismissal, signed by 30% of the members of the Association is received 4 working days prior to a general meeting at which such a resolution shall be debated.
b.2/3s of the Governing Executive Committee may also call a meeting to debate the dismissal of another committee member.
II.A resolution to dismiss a committee member shall be passed by a simple majority voting at the relevant and quadrate meeting.
III.A committee member wishing to resign must submit a letter in writing declaring that intention to resign to the Secretary, who will immediately inform the committee as a whole. The responsibilities of that person shall be delegated to other committee members(s) until a by-election can held to re-elect a new person to the position.
IV.Bye elections must take place at the earliest possible IV competition provided two weeks’ notice is given to the clubs
V.The individual charged will be given a chance to plead their case to the committee before voting
VI.A committee member wishing to resign must submit a letter in writing declaring that intention to resign to the Secretary, who will immediately inform the committee as a whole. The responsibilities of that person shall be delegated to other committee members(s) until a by-election can held to re-elect a new person to the position.
8. Meetings:
i.The committee shall convene one Annual General Meeting of all members within each calendar year at a place and time which in their opinion is most acceptable to the general membership no later than in the final month of the Academic year
ii.The committee shall inform all of, its members of the date and venue of the AGM at least one month before the meeting.
iii.The AGM shall be held no later than in the final month of the Academic year where the main committee members will be elected (where possible).
iv.The purpose of the AGM shall be to review the activities and performance of the Club over the previous year and to set targets for the following year and to elect a new committee
v.A quorum of the meeting shall be ½ the Governing Executive Committee members and 2/3 of the member colleges.
vi.The business of the AGM shall include elections of relevant Executive Governing Committee as well as annual reports from the outgoing Governing Executive Committee.
vii.An Extra-ordinary General Meeting (EGM) shall be convened if:
a.2 member colleges of the Association request such a meeting in writing.
b.A quorum of the Governing Executive Committee requests such a meeting in writing.
viii.Two weeks’ notice must be given to the membership of the date and venue of an EGM
ix.Each member club which entered an archer in more than half of the previous year’s competitions has 2 votes. All other member clubs have one vote.
x.At a meeting, a member may propose a resolution relating to the business of the Association. The resolution shall be voted on by a show of hands and a declaration of the IAAA Representative that the resolution is carried (unless a secret ballot is demanded by any member college) shall be conclusive evidence that the resolution has passed or failed.
xi.In the event that the IAAA Rep's resolution (9.8) is challenged, a recount of the votes will be administered in which a number of appropriate people will be appointed by the committee as "tellers" to count the votes. The result will be announced by the IAAA Rep. or the Chairperson (where requested by the general meeting).
9. General:
i.The membership fee for the Association shall be in compliance with the conditions set down by the Sports Associations Committee.
ii.Each member of the Association shall be entitled to receive a copy of this Constitution, on demand, free of charge.
iii.In joining the Association, members agree to be bound by the rules and regulations of the Association as laid down in this constitution and by the Governing Executive Committee. Members violating these rules and regulations shall be answerable to the committee and may have their membership revoked and no monies refunded, for persistent breaches or extremely serious breaches, as deemed by a majority of the committee. In the event that the committee cannot resolve a dispute with a member(s), the IAAA shall rule on the matter and its decision shall be final.
iv.Special committees shall be set up for specific events and shall dissolve on the completion of it’s' task, presenting it report to a higher committee or the members, depending on where the mandate for it to be set up was exercised.
v.In the event of a clash with the IAAA Constitution, the IAAA Constitution shall take precedence above this constitution and is subject to IAAA at all times.
xii.Decisions made by the Association are to be in the in interest of all the colleges involved and should not go against the rules of their institutions.
xiii.No resolution may contravene ICAA, IAAA or Fita policy.

10. Amendments to this Constitution

i.Resolutions on any matter pertaining to the Association for consideration by the AGM shall be in writing and received three weeks before the meeting.
ii.Changes to the Constitution can only be effected at an AGM or EGM and then only by two thirds majority of voting members.
iii.The decision to allow the expansion of the executive committee to include more members in order to allow for the growth of the Association shall be made in the same way as a change of constitution.

Aryzel

Ok, I read through the constituation, and there are a few issues you might want to consider. Btw I recommend everyone try to actually read it, word for word, I know its hard to actually do but its quite important. [And oddly enough, I believe these are pretty much the exact same issues that came up in the first draft of the consitution back in my day too]

Ok, this is kinda hard to write, as there are issues that arise because the way different sections interact, bare with me, I'll try to get it all down on, and tidy it up afterwards.

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Typos:
- You use committee with a small 'c' and a capital 'C', suggest changing them all to capital 'C'. (Captials being the 'in' thing with contacts these days)
- For the numbering, you sometimes use small leters for the Roman Numerals, and sometimes Captials, change them all the Captials (Captials being the 'in' things 2000 years ago too, apparantely the Romans created a workgroup to consider the feasibility of changing to lower case .... the workgroup is to publish its suggestions any day now, honest)
-7.III and 7.VI, are the indentical, remove one of them. (I suggest the latter one, otherwise your number system looks silly)
-7: You need to add a line stating that if it is the secretary that is resigning that, he should hand in his resignation to the chairperson, who will tend inform everyone and so on.

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Childerns's Officer:
Is part of the Governing Committee (4.VI.d) and has the responsibility of:
6.III.The Children’s Officer shall be responsible for all individuals under 18 who participate in the member clubs.

- You DO NOT want this, its well, I'll be polite and mearly call it stupid. The only practical application is to prevent 17 year old college students from drinking at any events after the competition is over. First there is no practical way to carry out this job! Second if somehow this became an issue you DO NOT want the fall out for whatever happened to fall on the league. It should be a club issue, and club responsiblity. Each individual club is responsibly for ALL actions of its members. The League should never get involved.
Also if there were other good reasons to take on this responsiblity, the above risk is too great, it is a million to one shot, but its the type of thing that can get the league shut down.

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IAAA Student Representative
4.VII.The IAAA Student Representative may also attend committee meetings, however will only have a vote in the case of a tie committee. This person will chair, AGM/ EGM
4.VIII.The Term of Office of these elected officers shall be one year.
a.The term of office of the Student rep. is as defined by the IAAA
Also mentioned in 8.X and 8.XI

- OK, who the hell is the IAAA Rep?! Who elects him, why does he get a tie vote, that should be the chairperson. If the IAAA rep is chairperson to the AGM/EGM what is the actual chairperson doing (does he become the chair?). I'd go into more detail, but I want to go to bed, and I hope you get the idea. IAAA rep is good idea, but should be elected like any other committee member. The Chairperson should always be the one chairing.

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9. General:
Ok, wow, seriously, wow.
- I think you might have forgotten the purpose of this committee. You exist to make the Archery Intervarisites run as smoothly as possible and serve the interests of the students, nothing else.

9.i.The membership fee for the Association shall be in compliance with the conditions set down by the Sports Associations Committee.
- Who the hell are the Sports Association Committee? The fee should be set by the committee.

9.iii: In the event that the committee cannot resolve a dispute with a member(s), the IAAA shall rule on the matter and its decision shall be final.
- OMG!, bull****, the committee resolves the dispute, end of discussion.

9.iv:Special committees shall be set up for specific events and shall dissolve on the completion of it’s' task, presenting it report to a higher committee or the members, depending on where the mandate for it to be set up was exercised.
-Ok, try to be honest here, are you being serious? You have one committee, you already have the all the best people on that committee, Why are you making new committees!!!

9.v.In the event of a clash with the IAAA Constitution, the IAAA Constitution shall take precedence above this constitution and is subject to IAAA at all times.
9.xii.Decisions made by the Association are to be in the in interest of all the colleges involved and should not go against the rules of their institutions.
9.xiii.No resolution may contravene ICAA, IAAA or Fita policy.
- Ok, your numbering is messed up.
- 9.xii, is good, interests of the colleges and all that. 9.v and 9.xiii, are BAD!
- The reasons why they are bad, first they contradict 9.xii, what happens if IAAA or someone whats to do something that is not in the interest of the students!! Or if you want to do something that would make the competitions more fun and interesting and everyone wants it, but is against a IAAA rule?
- Second is the generalisation of this, the only organisation whose purpose is the interests of the students is this one, therefore you NEVER EVER EVER make it subject to any other organisation EVER!! You do not make yourself subject to the IAAA or FITA, and I've no idea who the ICAA are but you do not make yourself subject to them either.

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On the committee compositon and elections/voting:

Proposed:
3.1: All third level institutions who shoot in the Intervarsity League are automatically members of the association.
5: Election of the Governing Executive Committee:
I.The committee members shall be democratically elected at the Annual General Meeting (AGM) or at an Extra-ordinary General Meeting (EGM).
II.Each member institution may put two people up for election. These candidates may run for any number of positions.
III.Each position shall be decided by a ballot of the attendees at the AGM/EGM
IV.The proposed candidate has the right to decline the post if he/she chooses
-There is more, but it would get too messy to include them all

Problem
3.1: Means each club is a member, it does not mean the members of the clubs are members, is that what you intended?
5: Who do you want to attend and vote at the AGM/EGM, is it 1 rep from each club, or is it all members of all the clubs. If it is all people from the club you have two problems, first clubs are difference sizes, so a large club can take over completely without intending to. Second, clubs set their own rules for who are members, so is it all members of a club, or is it the members of a club that are eligible to shoot at intervarsities. People vote for people they know, most people will know their clubmates best, so will vote for them. You can't stop this, but you can make it work for you, club members know their clubmates best, let them choose their reps, they will know the people and be well able to choose the best people from their club to represent them. Then let the reps do just that, represent the clubs, the reps form the committee and make the league level decisions.

Suggestion
3.1: Doesn't matter too much really, but should be clarified, and probably best to say all club members are members. (and by all club members, I mean by each clubs own rules). Also should mention that its yearly or something, clubs come and go, not all will be active every year.
5: I would suggest that the Committee consist of two reps from each club. These reps elect people (from the reps) to the jobs of:
a.Chairperson
b.Secretary
c.Public Relations Officer
d.Webmaster
e. Records officer
f. IAAA Student Rep
These are just jobs belonging to 6 of the committee members. The whole committee votes on issues (that is the 2 rep from each college). So if you have 10 clubs, you get a committee of 20 people. 6 of which will have the jobs listed above, and the other 14 are OCMs. All vote equally, with Chairperson giving tie vote.

Qurom
The qurom of 2/3's is fine if your making the committee the size is suggest (2 reps from each club), though I suggest you change the qurom requirement to be at least 1 rep from each club. You are not dealing with merged group of people here, you are dealing in separate clubs, none are going to be happy with having their input ignored. At least in practice make sure each club has a say.

If you do decided to go with your 5 to 6 person committe a qurom of 2/3s is stupid, its 4 people, thats just too small. You are leaving too many people and clubs out of the decision making process. All that will happen is that people will get pissed off and the organisation will get reset. It won't happen straight away, but eventually there will be a serious issue and **** will hit the fan. Save future generation the trouble and do it properly.

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To summarise on the Commitee thing, basically each club picks two people to represent it, how they do that is up the each club. The 2 reps from each college form the League Committee. This Committee are pretty much by definition the people with the most knowledge of each their clubs and most interaction with other clubs, basically the best possible people to making any decisions about the league. Therefore the Committee makes the decisions, they choose 6 of themselves of take on the Jobs listed. The chairperson, sectrary etc, their job is to make sure the league runs smoothly, they organise the dates, they see if something is becoming an issue, and outline the issue and possible solutions and discuss it with the full committeee. The fully committee then votes and decides what to do. Thats it. Word it up any way you want, but thats it.

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- I'll reread what i've just done, and probably adjust it alittle, but I hope you get the idea. What you've created is a fairly standard committee/association consitution, seen millions of them. THEY DO NOT WORK. What will happen is it will be accepted, people will keep it for 2 years or so, then it will get a bit messy, people will fall back into what i describe (1-2 reps from each college, a few people do the jobs listed, but no titles), that will continue for another 1-2 years, and then people will decide to formalise things and create a consitution almost identicle to this one, and the process will repeat. And that is the best case senarior, that the process repeats. So for the sake of my sanity, can you just go with something that works and makes sense the first time around.


Dermot

Private Ryan

Here is the reasoning for the various issues Dermot has pointed out
As for the other type-os I've corrected them in my version which I'll post up next week.

Just to point out article 2 IV. The association is affiliated to the IAAA
From some off the arguments put forward it may have been missed and I don’t wish to be accused of sneaking something in. If there are objections to this article speak now or forever hold your peace.

Children’s Officer
Any events after the shoots are not the responsibility of the ISAA.
I know we don’t want one but I think we have to have one. We are just as exposed if we don’t have one. Under Sports council guidelines any Association which deals with people under the age of 18 is obliged to have a Children’s officer and since we are sub body of the IAAA which is affiliated to the Sports Council we must conform to these guidelines. The clubs Children’s officers will deal with all issues in their college but are then obliged to inform the National children’s officer. If any major fall out arises the IAAA will be able to aid the ISAA provided we were conforming to their recommendations. And also if we are following procedures there is no way the League could be shut down.
If the million to one shot occurs, blissful ignorance will not be an excuse.

The IAAA Student Rep.
This person is elected at the IAAA AGM. The IAAA insist that it is someone who is active in the ISAA. As a result of this person not being elected at the ISAA AGM s/he can act as an impartial voice for duration of the entire AGM. The chair of committee meetings do not have to chair the AGM e.g. Captain of golf club chairs committee meetings but it is the President who chairs AGM/EGM.

“You exist to make the Archery Intervarisites run as smoothly as possible and serve the interests of the students, nothing else. “
There is a lot more the ISAA can do than just make sure shoots run smoothly, Lobbing for funding being the most obvious.

Slight remainder of the parent constitution in the reference to the Sports association committee instead it should read, “The membership fee for the Association shall be the total cost of the League prizes divided equally among the clubs which intend to compete in the IV League. “

The extra committees may be on specific topics e.g. if the Committee has no barebows on it how can the Committee conduct a full and fair review of the category.
what happens if IAAA or someone wants to do something that is not in the interest of the students
Questions..... how and what?

Or if you want to do something that would make the competitions more fun and interesting and everyone wants it, but is against an IAAA rule?
There are no IAAA rules in regard to competition formats.

The only organisation whose purpose is the interest of the students is this one; therefore you NEVER EVER EVER make it subject to any other organisation EVER!! You do not make yourself subject to the IAAA or FITA, and I've no idea who the ICAA are but you do not make yourself subject to them either.
If you are a small body who would have no way of defending themselves from litigation I think you would make the body subject to regulations of a governing body if this gave certain protection.(ICAA is a type-o should be ISAA)

The intention is to have the clubs the members as then no large club can dominate due to their numbers.

The idea of one rep from each club was suggested at the start but after discussion it was decided the committees of up to 10 are not effective. Two reps per club would put 20 people at each meeting and nothing would be done. Each club will be able to have their input into who gets onto the committee when they vote for a candidate. And anyway the decisions of the committee are subject to the constitution and IV League Rules. In reality the committee are simply figure heads of the Student body and have no power.

Yes I agree with your sentiments about this process repeating and the Association falling back onto a few so why not start off with just a reliable few. We have already had our experience of two reps from each club making decisions and to be frank it is not as easy as it seems. If the committee do need to make decisions that have far reaching consequences they will have to inform all the clubs, call an EGM and then vote on the proposed changes. But for the other small issues you do not need 20 different people giving their monies worth.

These are my thoughts (hopefully also representative of the others in the constitution committee) but if others disagree please post them here ASAP the AGM is next weekend.

Panserborn

I've been asked by Private Ryan to move the sections of the previous ISAA constitution thread regarding the latest version to its own thread and to sticky that instead of the old one - so here ye are!

The old thread (now unstickied and closed) is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055244198

Fair play to Private Ryan for getting all this together, good work for someone in their first IV year

Aryzel

I really don't have time to reply in depth, but i'll make a quick stab at it.

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"The association is affiliated to the IAAA",
- yes i saw that, however affiliated does not have to mean 'subject to'.

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Children's Officer,
"I think we have to have one",
'think' does not cut it here. If you intend to include this, then you need to find out exactly what is required and by who, and for what purpose. Your current wording is:
6.III.The Children’s Officer shall be responsible for all individuals under 18 who participate in the member clubs.

What this is say is that you are responsibile for all actions of all the under 18s in all the clubs, at all times and locations, not just competitions. You have put no conditions on this!! What do you mean 'responsible for'? When are you responsibe for them? At competitions or 24hours day? Also you call these things 'guidelines', guidelines by definition are optional.

"And also if we are following procedures there is no way the League could be shut down."
Your misunderstanding here, following procedures means squat, what would happen would be that there would be bad publicity etc, universities would tell their clubs not to compete, or subject the club to review, either way its the same result. Not to mention, the IAAA might well be the ones to put us on 'review' effectively shutting things down.

When exactly is the league responsible for anyone? The League does not run intervaristies, the hosting club/university runs the intervaristy, and holds ALL responsibility for what happens at the intervarsity. The League has nothing to do with individual people.

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IAAA Student Rep
I'm just going to straight out disagree here. IAAA might pick someone from the ISAA atm, but that will not always be true. And hell even if it was, they are in no position to pick the best person for the job. The chairperson should be the most impartial person at the meetings, thats basicaly their job. Why would you think the IAAA rep would be more impartial than anyone else (being impartial is more a personal trait, it has little to do with position). Not to mention that your completely contridicting yourself by claiming that the IAAA will select someone from the ISAA and then claiming that would be more impartial than the committee, when its almost certainly going to be someone from the committee!
- That reminds me, i think you forgot to add a line stating someone could only hold one committee positon at a time, and make sure you keep the 'at a time' part.

We should send a rep to them, not them to us. Or you could do it like this, we send the IAAA a shortlist of people, and they choose one. Just make sure that the shortlist your send has only ever one name on it.

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“You exist to make the Archery Intervarisites run as smoothly as possible and serve the interests of the students, nothing else. “
Ok, i might have being alittle simplistic, i thought you'd get the point. Your there to support the league for the students, not help the IAAA or anyone else. 'Smoothly as possible' and 'serving the interests of the students' covers fundraising and pretty much anything else you can think of.

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The extra committees may be on specific topics e.g. if the Committee has no barebows on it how can the Committee conduct a full and fair review of the category.
-Its called talking and thinking, the committee make the decisions, it doesn't mean they can't talk to other people. It is better to consider how things like this will work in practice (be practical and realistic here) and then design a formal system to relect that reality. To be honoest, there is no need to formalise somethign like this, its largely a case by case basis, let whoever is dealing with it at the time decide who to do it. Try to minimise the formalisations that you create.

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what happens if IAAA or someone wants to do something that is not in the interest of the students
-Questions..... how and what?

- Ok, IAAA impose a fee on you is the first simple one. But to put it generally what exactly does the league get out of being subject to the IAAA? Saying you 'subject' to the IAAA gives the IAAA absolute power over you, if that isn't the intention then change the wording.

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Or if you want to do something that would make the competitions more fun and interesting and everyone wants it, but is against an IAAA rule?
-There are no IAAA rules in regard to competition formats.

-And if they impose some .... ?

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(ICAA is a type-o should be ISAA)
- Wait, what are the ISAA policies then? And what if you want to change one of your own policies?

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If you are a small body who would have no way of defending themselves from litigation I think you would make the body subject to regulations of a governing body if this gave certain protection.
- Who is giving this protection and what exactly is the protection? The league should have no responsbilities towards any individual person. As compeitions are run by the host university club, the clubs/universities hold ALL responsiblity. Also what kinda litigation situation are you worried about?

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The idea of one rep from each club was suggested at the start but after discussion it was decided the committees of up to 10 are not effective. Two reps per club would put 20 people at each meeting and nothing would be done. Each club will be able to have their input into who gets onto the committee when they vote for a candidate. And anyway the decisions of the committee are subject to the constitution and IV League Rules. In reality the committee are simply figure heads of the Student body and have no power.

Ok, Its starting to be clearer now. You need to explain this structure better in the consitution. Its basiclly what i was suggesting, you have 4-6 people with jobs doing the work, and all members (2 per college) get to vote on things.

Try rewording a few things.
- Voting, finally saw the line (8.ix) that explains the voting, bascially 2 votes per club. You need to put this much higher and more prominate in the consitution. Bascially maybe reorganise some of the sections so it is clear how the structure is going to work, cause atm its near impossible to see in its current format, which leaves it open to dispute.
- The IV League Rules are subject to the committee not the other way around. You need to add a line stating that changes to the IV dates/competition format/IV Rules needs to go an EGM/AGM.
- The committee are the ones doing the work, that means they have the power, it always does. Titles are meaningless, whoever is doing the work has the power.

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Thanks Ryan, you've made things alittle clearer, the committee/voting thing isn't as a bad as it first appeared, its actually more or less what i suggested aswell, just worded differently. But it needs to be made clearer in the consitution, its just not obvious atm.

The big remaining issue, is IAAA I think. Obviously its your show now, ye have to decided what you want. My objection would be that main interest of the IAAA is the IAAA, not the ISAA. It needs to be extremely clear what the IAAA brings to the league, and what the league brings to the IAAA. My biggest concern is that the league needs to maintain its ability to be independant from the IAAA, with your constitution the IAAA has too many fingers in the pot.

The main issues,
- Is the IAAA rep, that we don't elect, who has too much influence on the committee and AGM/EGM meetings.
- My points still hold on 9.v, 9.xii and 9.xiii. They allow for contradictions, and they make us subject to the IAAA and FITA. When you say 'subject' you should understand exactly what you mean. It means that they can do 'ANYTHING' and you will agree to it. You are saying that if they decide to charge you 10,000 euro per year, you will pay it. If they decide to change all the competition formats and dates, you will do it. If they decided that you have to do archery naked, you will do it. Unless that is what you intend, you should change this.

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Ok, i've spent too much time on this already today, thats enough for now.

Dermot

Aryzel

Also, forgot to say, running a large committee isn't that hard or bad (tiring and fustrating sure, but not hard). You just need someone who knows what they are doing.

mr potato head

Hope this is still all relivant... feel free to move it Mods

Aryzel wrote: »

the main interest of the IAAA is the IAAA, not the ISAA. It needs to be extremely clear what the IAAA brings to the league, and what the league brings to the IAAA. My biggest concern is that the league needs to maintain its ability to be independant from the IAAA.

Ok maybe i'm a little biased on this ... but i'll disagree with the first bit of this quote!
The main interest of the IAAA is archery! this is in their constitution too! This gives the two associations a common goal.

The ISAA can be much much more than a competition organising committee and can generate real positive change for the sport not just for students!

Having been both IAAA student rep and the Development officer i can see both sides of the argument. But i will say honestly and openly i would be very happy to see a closer working relationship between the two Associations.

As Dermot has pointed out the correct wording has to be found to allow the ISAA to act somewhat independently of the IAAA on the more student related issues.

There have always been an will always be the same challenges to face setting up an assocation as there was four years ago...
Not every student wants to be linked closely with an NGB!

I won't argue there are positives and negatives to being more closely linked with an NGB:

Neg: limiting the associations freedom of independent action to some degree or another (This depends entirely on the wording in both constitutions and the agreements reached on both sides).

Pos: The IAAA would provide the ISAA with more positive and useable links to other groups - "Lotto", "Irish sports council", "NCTC" and "FITA"... not to forget training weekends, the coaches, the coach training program.

Back scratching
OK lets look at the benefits to each association.

The links gained through the IAAA help the positive development of the sport for students and filters through to everyone if they correctly used. A student group will never have the access to these opportunities as an independent entity and in return you have to give something back?

The IAAA gains access to the massive numbers of new people exposed to the sport every year by the college clubs!!! I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that there are as many people exposed by the college clubs as by all the standard IAAA clubs every year!

If the IAAA can help the colleges through the provision of loan equipment and help from external coaches for the first few sessions of the year (Madness time), more beginners may return to participate (Stronger IV team, advantage to college!), some of these may get more involved and join the IAAA .... the Irish sports council funding is based on numbers on paper they get increased funding (advantage to IAAA)... again filters back to the students through the equipment loaning and coaching!

REP
An IAAA/ISAA rep should be required to be an IAAA member! They should at least have some experience/previous contact with the members of the IAAA committee, this is an advantage not a drawback for students as it gives them a stronger voice at the table.

It is up to the ISAA to ensure that the person they wish to have represent them at the IAAA is capable of fighting their corner as there are many benifits that rely on the rep collecting information, relaying it to the ISAA and also making decisions there and then!
They need to put their name forward prior to the IAAA AGM and that the attend the AGM and as many meetings as they can during the year!!! this is time consuming and should be approached with responsibility! (Showing my age )

Chair
A separate Chairperson would be an advantage as Dermot said for impartiality

Children's Officer
This is a tricky one!!! Yes in my opinion there should be one, to ensure from a more official standpoint the use of the code of ethics and good practice set out by the Irish sports council. This should apply at competition only, as Dermot says it is up to the individual college to protect its members away from the venue or outside association activity times.

I understand this sounds very un-student like but there is not harm having someone who knows the code and can give guidelines to the college running the event to help protect the individual members as well as the member colleges from problems that can occur!


I have to say well done to James for the work that i never got off my a$$ to do!
Its not easy and yes there are issues that need to be discussed in an open and constructive way.
Good luck with it

Keith

Aryzel

The universities and the IAAA are already quite close on a local scale, and there is nothing wrong with formalising it abit, being affiliated and that. But we must maintain the ability to be independent.

- The way it should work is for us softly encourage students to attend IAAA compeitions, we need to make it extremely easy and practical for students to do this. But it needs to be done softly, no pressure on people, just encourage them and make it very easy to do. This is where the IAAA benefit, they get a ton more active members. Note, that it should the club reps encouraging the students to get involved with IAAA competitions, it should not be 'recuitement drives' by someone from the IAAA, they won't work. This is a case study in herding cats, it needs to be approached as such.

- The IAAA helps the clubs via loaning equipment, which they already do, its fairly well estabilished system atm. And maybe doing some more coaching for intermediate to advance club members. I would not recommend IAAA coaches for beginners at the start of the year, simply put we're dealing with a pile of 17-18 year olds that have come down to shoot a bow and arrow! Someone in their 30s or older telling them what to do, is just off putting.

- We could also use the IAAA to help get some funding and put together a formal Irish University team.

These are the things that should be done in practice, and alot of them are happening to some degree already. But a consitution for the ISAA, should only say that we are affiliated to the IAAA, there is no need to put additional constraints on ourselves.

---

The main interest of the IAAA is archery as you say, however the main interest of the ISAA is student archery. There can be a difference.

---

Children's Officer, screw 'code of ethics', 'good practice' and 'responsibility', tell me what the hell this person is actually meant to be doing! Also where, when and how they will do it. If it there is actually a job that needs doing then, yes, create this position. But don't give someone the job of being Children's officer, if the sole purpose is to just 'be' the Children's Officer.

---

Dermot

ruiner

Dermot, the IAAA student rep is elected by the students not appointed by the IAAA. Same as the schools rep. They are meant to be elected by their association prior to the IAAA AGM.

Aryzel

ruiner wrote: »

Dermot, the IAAA student rep is elected by the students not appointed by the IAAA. Same as the schools rep. They are meant to be elected by their association prior to the IAAA AGM.

hmm, Ryan stated that:
The IAAA Student Rep.
This person is elected at the IAAA AGM.

Make up ye're minds. Also regardless of which way it works, it needs to be detailed in the consitution, atm, the IAAA Rep appears out of mid air with an excessive amount of influence on ISAA matters.

Private Ryan

Ok thanks for pointing these out, there is only soo much one can pick up in a few months, I need more info on the Student rep, Dot has pointed out that that it is the colleges that vote him/her in but does this person automatically get a seat on the IAAA committee or do they require ratification at the IAAA AGM.
The IAAA rep will need rewriting as will the childrens rep,
The original childrens rep def was just the first think I could think off so that I could put it in to show our intentions of having one. As for a new def....

The Childrens officer must keep a record of all persons under 18 who participate in archery in member clubs.
Private and confedential records must also be kept by the childrens officer of all incidences involving these archers when they are participating in an archery club activity. It is the responsobility of the club in question to inform the both their administration and the ISAA childrens officer of the incident. The ISAA will have no part in the resolution of such incidents but instead must keep records, in strictest confidence, of the people involved which are to be made available to other institution administrations or the IAAA only in event of a repeat occurance.
The Childrens rep must ensure the IV competitions are run in a manor appropriate to those under 18. Incidents at IV competitions involving IAAA affiliated juniors are to be handled by the IAAA.

This covers all that the childrens officer needs to do.......nothing really. This is all that is expected of us but having these lines in the constution do not leave us more exposed than if they were not in it (the ISAA is absolved of anything to do with resolving incidents). The chances of an incident occuring are slim and a repeat incident even slimer. One of the remaining questions is however should we require the childrens officer to have credentials of some sort.

Aryzel

Your doing a good job, its never easy to see all the persepectives of legal type documents like these. I've spent alot of time working and thinking about these things both in the archery league, a few other things I was involved in and it was pretty much my job when I worked for AIB.


Children's Officer
On the Children's Officer, it shoulds good in theory, but went you look at the details you get into serious trouble:

The Childrens officer must keep a record of all persons under 18 who participate in archery in member clubs.
- How are you going to collect this information from all colleges. Most of the clubs don't know. Your talking 1000-1500 people signing up between all the college each year. I'd estimate that a good 500 are 17. Also what about privacy of information and age discrimination? Do you actually have the right to ask anyone any questions about their age, and hold files on them? If you hold files then you are probably subject to freedom of information law, which might require you to prove you have the ability that if anyone ever asks for it, you will make available any files you have on them. You'll also need to check how long the information needs to be kept, probably 4-6 years after the person stops having any interaction with the league (and you will need to keep aware of changes to the law, and time limit can be changed, and could be extended indefinitely, ie, you will need to keep all info forever).


Private and confedential records must also be kept by the childrens officer of all incidences involving these archers when they are participating in an archery club activity.
- Again, how will you get this information, is it in all club activies or just intervarsities? Also information privacy and freedom of information, do you have the right to hold any information and be able to supply copies if requested in the future. Not to mention you need to figure out how you are going to keep this informaiton. Who will collect it, where will it be stored (securely!) for the long term, in what format. Another big thing is who will have access to the files, what are the requirements of access? 20 years from now, will some 18 year old first year, be able to flick throught the files and see some extremely private information about people?


It is the responsobility of the club in question to inform the both their administration and the ISAA childrens officer of the incident. The ISAA will have no part in the resolution of such incidents but instead must keep records, in strictest confidence, of the people involved which are to be made available to other institution administrations or the IAAA only in event of a repeat occurance.
- Ok, if an incident occurs, it is going to be handeled by the club, and possibly escalted to the university involved (host university and university of the individual). The universities being the main people handeling it to be honest. Where does the ISAA fit in? You do not deal with the incident, so how do you make the reports on it? The univeristies are going to be extremely reluctant to give you any information or files. And you have the privacy and freedom of information here again. Remember the ISAA organises the league, but it has absolutely nothing to do with any particular club individual or competition. Each individual club has full responsibility for its members at all time. And the host university (not the club, but the actual university) has full responsibility for the competitions. The ISAA does not fit in here.


The Childrens rep must ensure the IV competitions are run in a manor appropriate to those under 18. Incidents at IV competitions involving IAAA affiliated juniors are to be handled by the IAAA.
- This is possibly getting close to something workable. The ISAA has no control over what happens at IVs, so they can't 'ensure' anything happens or does not happen. What the ISAA does is lay down the rules governing the competitions that the clubs are to follow. So I'd change this line to say something like:

"The Childrens rep will liase with IV hosts to advise the host clubs on running IV competitions in a manor appropriate to those under 18."
- And in practice what you will do come up with a list of advice for the clubs, remind the host of it before each IV. And if any incidents occurs you say:
"We advised the club involved of what reasonable cautions they could take against incidents involving minors, such the incident that has occured. But the incident itself and its resolve are solely a matter for the clubs and universities involved."


Bascially the Chrildren's officer thing is cute, but you need to know exactly what your doing and how you are going to do it.

Dermot

MicS

Regarding IAAA student rep. I've been to 2 IAAA AGMs and I can remember that students themselves proposed Student Rep, and IAAA AGM approved/appointed/elected him.

So ISAA constitution can say that ISAA committee (or AGM/EGM, but committee is better in my view) should vote on a shortlist of representatives to IAAA, and IAAA later at its own AGM can vote on candidates and appoint him/her. Also, IAAA and ISAA have different cycles for AGMs, because students normally use academic years instead of calendar.

In my opinion, IAAA rep should not have a vote for himself in ISAA meetings (and not be counted towards quota of 2 reps from each club), but instead follow decisions taken by ISAA and take them to IAAA if necessary. And vice versa, inform ISAA about decision taken by IAAA. However, his/her role should be more active in IAAA to promote student archery.

Having an chairperson for committee meeting, who is impartial, does not have a normal vote and only has a tie vote, is better. Chairperson could be a still eligible person shooting in IV league for the most years (for example, Thomas Sheppard, and then Michael Maerlein and Macdara Glynn started in 2001-2002 season).

Regarding Children's Officer. Limit his responsibilities to IV competitions, as Dermot said. And even in such case, there's not much to do.

Private Ryan

In this post I'll go through the changes that I've made to the version at the top as a result of the input from others.

(It was pointed out that the aims are too imediate so instead they will read)
2. Aims and Objectives:
I.To act as a governing body for third level archers
II.To promote and instil an abiding interest in all forms of Archery in Irish Third Level Institutions except for bow hunting.
III.To encourage and nurture the competitive aspect of the sport by means of, but not limited to, intervarsity competitions.
IV.To provide information for students and institutions on the sport through any available media and aid in the formation of new clubs.
V.To support and encourage a forum for discussion of ideas and problems and allow these to be communicated to the IAAA on behalf of the clubs involved in the Association.
VI.To provide a standard agreed format for intervarsity competitions.
VII.To aid the creation, selection and development of a national student team to compete at international level.
VIII.To actively seek sponsorship for the league and team in order to provide the best facilities possible for all involved.
IX.The association is affiliated to the IAAA




4. Governing Executive Committee:
[FONT=&quot] V[/FONT] c.All Committee members are required to attend at least two meetings a year. Those who fail to fulfil this requirement may be the subject of disciplinary proceedings at the discretion of the Committee


VII.The IAAA Student Representative (if they are not already a member of the committee) may also attend Committee meetings, however they will not have a vote.
VIII.A person may only hold one position on the committee at any time
a.Except in the case of the IAAA student Rep.
IX.The Term of Office of these elected officers shall be one year.
a.The term of office of the Student rep. is as defined by the IAAA.
X.A person shall not hold the same office for more than 2 successive years.
a.Unless no other person interested in the post can be found.
XI.In the case that that there is a tie in the elections of the officers extra ordinary member positions can be created.




5. Election of the Governing Executive Committee:
I.The Committee members shall be democratically elected by proportional representation ballot at the Annual General Meeting (AGM) or at an Extra-ordinary General Meeting (EGM).
a.Although the IAAA Student Rep. will be voted on at the relevant ISAA meeting, their term of office will not begin until they are ratified at the next IAAA AGM
II.Votes are to be allocated on the same basis as all other voting in the AGM/EGM (8 VIII)

6. Duties of Governing Executive Committee:
I.The Chairperson shall be:
a.The chief officer of the Association whose functions include chairing all meetings of the Committee.
b.The Chair of all meeting of the Association and will only have a vote in the case of a tie committee.
c.An ex-officio member of any Committee or sub-Committee set up by the club unless no ex-officio runs for the post

III.The Children’s officer will liaise with IV hosts to advise the host clubs on running IV competitions in a manor appropriate to those under 18.

8. Meetings:

VII.Each member club which entered an archer in more than half of the previous year’s competitions has 2 votes. All other member clubs have one vote.
VIII.Each member club which entered an archer in more than half of the previous year’s competitions has 2 votes. All other member clubs have one vote.
IX.At a meeting, a member may propose a resolution relating to the business of the Association. The resolution shall be voted on by a show of hands and a declaration of the Chairperson that the resolution is carried (unless a secret ballot is demanded by any member college) shall be conclusive evidence that the resolution has passed or failed.
X.In the event that the Chairpersons resolution (8 IX) is challenged, a recount of the votes will be administered in which a number of appropriate people will be appointed by the Committee as "tellers" to count the votes. The result will be announced by the Chairperson or the Secretary(where requested by the general meeting).

9. General:
I.The membership fee for the Association shall be the total cost of the League prizes divided equally among the clubs which intend to compete in the IV League.
II.Each member of the Association shall be entitled to receive a copy of this Constitution, on demand, free of charge.
III.In joining the Association, members agree to be bound by the rules and regulations of the Association as laid down in this constitution and by the Governing Executive Committee.
a.Members violating these rules and regulations shall be answerable to the Committee and for persistent breaches or an extremely serious breach, may have their membership revoked and no monies refunded, as deemed by a majority of the Committee.
IV.Special Committees shall be set up for specific events and shall dissolve on the completion of it’s' task, presenting it report to a higher Committee or the members, depending on where the mandate for it to be set up was exercised.
V.Decisions made by the Association are to be in the in interest of all the colleges involved and should not go against the rules of their institutions.
VI.No resolution may contravene ISAA, IAAA or Fita policy.

I deleted the thing on the IAAA ruling on disputes and the constution clash but if I delete 9 VI. it gives people free reign to make resolutions on anything

Aryzel

Would like to see the final full version with those changes applied, but all in all it looks ok. On the resolution thing at the end, I'd add that resolutions must be on matters relating to the league.

Private Ryan

And now, presenting the Constitution in it's most legible form ever............
(though it's still v boring)

Aryzel

Looks good, nice job Ryan. Three small points though:

6.III: 'manor' should be 'manner'

6.VI: 'the E-mail income', I presume should be 'incoming e-mail'

You need to add a line somewhere clarifying how League Competition Rules are
changed, can the Committee apply changes to the rules, or does it need to go
to a general vote?

Dermot

Private Ryan

6 III and 6 VI changed as indicated in Dermots post above and a new article added saying...
10 IV The Intervarsity League Rules are to be read and interpreted in conjunction with this Constitution.
a. Decisions to change these Rules shall be made in the same way as a change to the Constitution.

Private Ryan

I've decided to put a copy here of the constitution as passed at an EGM of the ISAA on the 29th March 2008 in UL. (There should be another upto date version stuck to the top of all the treads)
Hopefully between this thread and the other one(Irish Student Archery Association Draft Constitution) the reasoning for every "contraversal" article is laid out and should help people in years to come interpet this document.
And in case some iliterate fool (like me) comes along in 5 years searching boards for all references to constitution there now follows a list of all the ways you can say or spell constitution, constution, consitution, con. , constituton, bunracht, noitutitsnoc, conztitution (for all you americans out there), charter, policy, binding rules, fall back, resolution......

And if they still cannot find it, who in gods name put a bow in this persons hand?!!

MOD - new constitution thread is here