Passat Gone Wallop. Traded for an Accord.

Green Hornet

Hi, a neighbour of mine bought a new Passat diesel (not sure what flavour) last week. Driving it down from Dublin to Wexford the damn thing began to die. Limped home with it and it transpires that something had gone wrong with the engine because it was only driving on 2 cylinders. Brought it back up and traded for a new Accord CDTi. Not good for VW because this guy has been a VW man for as long as I can remember but said he will never buy one again. Incidentally, he loves the Accord and says its in a different class to the Passat. Damned Accords are very expensive though but I suppose you get what you pay for at the end of the day.

Must say that browsing through the Motors section the reputation of VAG seems to be taking a bit of a beating.

eamon234

Company I work for have been through 80 of them in the past 2 years. Not one has broken down, most have done over 100k miles. They switched from the supposedly reliable Toyota Avensis because the breakdown rate was so bad on the previous 80 or so cars that were bought. It doesn't matter what make of car you're talking about there's always going to be the odd faulty one - look around hard enough and you'll find a similar story about practically every other marque out there. I know first hand of an Accord that had the exact same problem.

JHMEG

VW's reliability hit rock bottom about 3 years ago, as far as I remember. At the time VWs and Audis were scoring worse than Alfas. Things have improved since then I gather, but they've still quite a way to go.

Back in the days when cars were simple (ie carbs, leaded petrol etc) VWs were very reliable, and I think to a large extent they're still trying to ride on that reputation.

groupb

Don't get me started!

vengeance52

i remember when i was gettin my accord in NI at a honda dealer, the guy i was chattin to had two guys waiting to talk to him. i got chattin to them. They work for a company in cork, and were comin to buy two accords and bring them over to the south, as they loved the car.

psmate

I noticed today that Honda are offering a good financing deal on the 2.2 CDTI sport Accord, in the Sunday Tribune page 4. They are offering financing of 4.9% over 3 years not bad...

bazz26

psmate wrote: »

I noticed today that Honda are offering a good financing deal on the 2.2 CDTI sport Accord, in the Sunday Tribune page 4. They are offering financing of 4.9% over 3 years not bad...

That might have something to do with the fact that there is a new model Accord due here in June/July.

Back on topic, I'm not one bit surprised by this story, VW's perceptions of "superior quality" and "built to last" are far from the truth yet alot of people buy into this and are happy to pay silly money for this perception.

But to be fair MkV Golf GTi and the new range of TSi engines show what VAG can do when they feel the need.

JHMEG

bazz26 wrote: »

But to be fair MkV Golf GTi and the new range of TSi engines show what VAG can do when they feel the need.

Which has nothing to do with reliability.

The Mk5 GTI is the first Golf to have an independent suspension.. 20 years after the competition. 200bhp from a 2.0 turbo is "could do better", and the 1.4 GT's main competitor, like-for-like, is a 15 year-old Startlet GT/Glanza.

From what I can see DSG is the only innovation from VW in 30 years.

bazz26

JHMEG wrote: »

Which has nothing to do with reliability.

The Mk5 GTI is the first Golf to have an independent suspension.. 20 years after the competition. 200bhp from a 2.0 turbo is "could do better", and the 1.4 GT's main competitor, like-for-like, is a 15 year-old Startlet GT/Glanza.

From what I can see DSG is the only innovation from VW in 30 years.

True but compared to the MkIII and MkIV the MkV GTi is like chalk and cheese.

GERMAN ROCKS

i must say a lot of my friends have vws and none of them gave any trouble. they would all recommend vws and buy one again

Seth Brundle

You can't judge an entire brand on one bad experience!

gordon_gekko

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

i must say a lot of my friends have vws and none of them gave any trouble. they would all recommend vws and buy one again

VW drivers tend to be ultra cautious individuals , changing from VW for them would be as big a decision as having open heart surgery

coolbeans

VWs by and large trade on their perceived reputation for quality i.e. put a big rubbery dashboard into a car and people get the perception that the car is well built. The awful truth is, as most of us know, far removed from the reality. At best VWs have average reliability. Check out any reliability surveys and they'll back up what I'm saying. The amazing thing though is that reliability varies within the VAG group. Skoda for example, the bargain basement VW manages to achieve Japanese levels of reliability while VW itself is often out of the top twenty manufacturers. The following is from the 2005 customer Top Gear Customer Satisfaction Survey:
1Lexus93.22Skoda91.53Honda90.04Mazda88.95Toyota88.46Subaru88.37Mini88.08Porsche87.19Jaguar87.010BMW86.411Hyundai86.112Volvo85.313Audi84.914Saab84.115Suzuki83.916Seat83.617Lotus83.518Smart83.519Nissan82.620Chrysler82.2
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2005/11/stories/01/3.html

The JD Power/What Car Survey came to similar if not quite as bad a conclusion as Top Gear. In 2007 VW finished a respectable 13th out of 33 manufacturers however when we get down to brass tacks we see that the Passat finished a miserable 47th out of 113. The Accord finished 6th.
http://www.whatcar.co.uk/news-special-report.aspx?NA=225557&EL=3196982#

One from the USA. You'll need a subscription to see the results but in the abstract the Consumer Reports survey concluded that "European makes account for 17 models on the Least reliable list. This includes six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi".

There's the empirical evidence but in my experience I know a sales rep doing 50k a year in a Passat. Apart from being stuck one evening due to the handbrake sticking he's happy with it.
Ont the other hand my ex girlfriends parents had both a Touareg and a Passat and replaced both of them with Lexus RX and an Accord. The electrical and mechanical problems in the VWs were too many to mention but suffice it to say that they've had no problems with the Japs.
I also know of a guy with a MkIV 1.4 Golf. He says and I quote that the car is "an overrated piece of ****" and that his next motor will be a Civic.
I could go on and on...

Incidentally I've heard that the Avensis isn't as great as it's reputed to be. I've come the the conclusion that unless your Japanese car is built in Japan it won't be as good as it's manufactured in The Land of the Rising Sun brethren. Same can be said of Mazdas and Hondas IMO.

Anyway back to the point in hand. VWs are below par reliability wise. The evidence is indisputable. They were great back in the days of the unstoppable diesel Jetta but no longer.

Green Hornet

Must say that I think the Accord is a finer looking car anyway. Wonder if the new one will be as nice? Haven't really seen many previews.

bazz26

Green Hornet wrote: »

Must say that I think the Accord is a finer looking car anyway. Wonder if the new one will be as nice? Haven't really seen many previews.

Here you go:

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Green Hornet

Looks a little like a cross between the current Accord and the new Civic saloon. Nice.

Do you have any idea about prices Bazz?

bazz26

No idea on prices. It's hard to tell at the moment with the VRT changes coming in so I'd say it's a wait and see what Honda Ireland do.

vengeance52

looks like they change the sat nav from touch screen to nav joystick thingy only and they dont hide the sat nav DVD rom. but otherwise i like the looks of the new one

E92

It's at least £1,500 dearer across the pond than the old one I think, and I'd expect it will get a nice price hike here too.

They are trying to compete with the 3 series, and Audi A4 with it(what the point in that is I don't know, they should bring in Acura to do that and let Honda compete with Toyota, Mazda etc, which in fairness are their closest rivals).

Biro

VW certainly have had plenty of electrical faults over the last 10 years. By and large though, the engines have been reliable, apart from the 1.8T.
VW haven't been too innovative aright, as someone pointed out, but you can't compare the Golf with the 1.4 TSI engine to that heap of crap Starlet Turbo / Glanza turbo.
Also, BMW are boasting about stop-start in their Efficient Dynamics package, VW had that in the Jetta in the 80's.
Still, I prefer the Accord, and yer man was right to change. I do think the new Accord is too much like the current one though, which is dating a little now. And you can depend on those tools in Honda Ireland to price it out of competitiveness.
For some reason, the Accords aren't holding their value as well as they should.

E92

They don't hold their value as well as they should because they are priced to compete with a VW/Audi but in reality are the same as a Toyota, Ford, etc. I know VW is really the same as a Toyota, though for some reason it gets away with it's premium pricing.(It has a "superior" image so we're told)

I think VAG have been quite innovative on petrol engines actually.

They were the first with a mass produced direct injection 4 cylinder engine after Mitsubishi(though Mitsubishi's system is quite flawed, the VAG system is more tolerant of lower quality fuel for a start and unlike Mitsubishi's system can work anywhere in the world), they were certainly first to combine direct injection with a turbo, and also with both a turbo and a supercharger.

They also had 5 valves per cylinder, I don't ever remember any other car maker with a 5 valves per cylinder engine(bar Bugatti I think, they had a 5 v engine ages ago too).

In terms of diesels, yes they invented PD, but they have finally admitted that they got it wrong as they are now switching over to common rail too(well the larger engines were common rail a long time ago).

A VAG enthusiast will tell you that Audi were the first with the TDI engine. It was actually the Fiat Croma in 1988 that was the first diesel to have TDI technology.

I can't think of anything they have invented for diesels apart from PD technology, and of course the R10 is the first diesel whose engine is all alloy like all modern petrol engines are.

I thought it was the 1.4 16 valve petrol that gave all the trouble, and that the 1.8T was fine apart from the coils which fail rather religiously, no?

bazz26

E92 wrote: »

They also had 5 valves per cylinder, I don't ever remember any other car maker with a 5 valves per cylinder engine(bar Bugatti I think, they had a 5 v engine ages ago too).

Actually I think the JDM Corolla FX GT hatch from the early 1990s had a 20 valve 4 cylinder engine.

E92

Forgot about Toyota, my apologies!

Biro

E92 wrote: »

They don't hold their value as well as they should because they are priced to compete with a VW/Audi but in reality are the same as a Toyota, Ford, etc. I know VW is really the same as a Toyota, though for some reason it gets away with it's premium pricing.(It has a "superior" image so we're told)

I think VAG have been quite innovative on petrol engines actually.

They were the first with a mass produced direct injection 4 cylinder engine after Mitsubishi(though Mitsubishi's system is quite flawed, the VAG system is more tolerant of lower quality fuel for a start and unlike Mitsubishi's system can work anywhere in the world), they were certainly first to combine direct injection with a turbo, and also with both a turbo and a supercharger.

They also had 5 valves per cylinder, I don't ever remember any other car maker with a 5 valves per cylinder engine(bar Bugatti I think, they had a 5 v engine ages ago too).

In terms of diesels, yes they invented PD, but they have finally admitted that they got it wrong as they are now switching over to common rail too(well the larger engines were common rail a long time ago).

A VAG enthusiast will tell you that Audi were the first with the TDI engine. It was actually the Fiat Croma in 1988 that was the first diesel to have TDI technology.

I can't think of anything they have invented for diesels apart from PD technology, and of course the R10 is the first diesel whose engine is all alloy like all modern petrol engines are.

I thought it was the 1.4 16 valve petrol that gave all the trouble, and that the 1.8T was fine apart from the coils which fail rather religiously, no?

Ya, Bugatti EB110 had 5 valves per cylinder, in a V12, equalling 60 valves... and it had 4 turbo's!
Ya, Toyota had 5 valves per cylinder too. The Corolla referred to as the "twin cam 20" has them, that was around 1992 direction. Not too sure of other models. PD had the edge over common rail at the start, as it could get more power and was more economical due to the fact that the unit injectors could achieve much higher pressure, but that advantage has disappeared with higher pressure common rail engines. (developed by Fiat with Bosch!)

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

They were the first with a mass produced direct injection 4 cylinder engine after Mitsubishi

Surely that makes them 2nd??!

E92 wrote: »

they were certainly first to combine direct injection with a turbo,

Maybe, but no extra points for that.

E92 wrote: »

and also with both a turbo and a supercharger.

They weren't. It was someone like Daihatsu in the early 90s. I'll see if I can find it.

E92 wrote: »

They also had 5 valves per cylinder, I don't ever remember any other car maker with a 5 valves per cylinder engine

What about all those 20-valve Levins that are going around?

E92 wrote: »

In terms of diesels, yes they invented PD

What is PD? Is it any good? Was it worth inventing?