First with the news:Tara protesters to be removed

studiorat

Well B.
We agree on the sensitive nature of the road. Meath Council may have postered Navan, but as I said in's a national issue. I can understand the residents fear of ending up with the status quo, in nobodys interest... Particularly the 22,000 commuters involved.

"The M3 should at the least be re-routed but in fact there is no need for it except in a situation where no other transport modes are available. A 2+1 route can be built on the existing N3 alignment for far lower costs, together with "high-speed, high capacity" rail to Kells and another from Navan to Drogheda. This would be a far better transport solution and would avoid destruction of heritage. "

The problem stems from the disbanding of the Heritage Service (Ductas?), and the subsiquent appointment of the NRA as the Archeological survey service.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that brings it down to a county level. And Meath Chamber of Commerce's use of the survey to make what should be a National development plan into a Meath development plan. Not dissimilar to the creation of the HSE and it's subsiquent failure.

Irish times survey

The whole thing stinks of Slippery B*stards pulling the wool over peoples eyes, IMO.

BTW the same S.B's who put €4,000 into the coffers for St. Patricks day celebrations in Navan, while they headed off to London, Sydney, New York? Probably to try avert the damage the whole business will do on an international level.
(I refer to the Minutes of the council meeting Mar. 6th.)


Other points of interest to me are

- An Bord Pleanala has not rejected a single motorway scheme to date and, as part of the National Development Plan, it's highly unlikely that it could do anything about it on archaeology grounds


-The P route was favourable from a number of other environmental aspects as pointed out by the Bellinter residents at the oral hearing - this is summarised in the MAHS petition to the European Parliament

-And Finally, the delays of the work have not been caused by Tara Protestors, but by the fact that they keep finding sites as the go along.

So recent deaths on the N3 could be blamed on this fact rather than those poor unfortunates freezing their asses off in a field in Meath. Even if their fathers are "known well" to Bertie, and they (well one anyway) are "probably known " by him too, so he says. (Indo, Sunday 16th) Gombeen.

Nice Martin and Gerry poke though! Took me a while to get that one.

studiorat

bauderline wrote: »

Your objections may well still be here, doesn't mean that they are valid though does it ?

Time will tell, time will tell.

I'm done here, best of luck to all.

_Kaiser_

studiorat wrote: »

The N3 will be moving faster with less people on it, one of the reasons the N3 is slow is caused by people driving too close to each other, causing a waves of cars slowing down in which they slow almost to a stop as this passes back along the line. This phenomenon can be observed on busy roads as cars standing still for apparently no reason. Ask your mates about it.

Am I correct in saying that you've never actually been to the area you're going on about? If this is true, how are you qualified to comment at all?

I use the N3 several times a day and - for the most part - it flows relatively well. The problems arise though when you get to Kells, Navan, Dunshaughlin and (inbound) the Ratoath junction or (outbound) the end of the Blanchardstown bypass. Not to the mention the dangerous junctions on this road at the Ratoath/Trim turnoff or the junction just beyond Dunshaughlin outbound after the speed camera (where in fact I lost my firsr car when a woman made a mistimed dart across the road in front of me). Safe overtaking points are limited to about half a dozen as well.

As a daily user then I can't wait for the new motorway and the vast majority of other users and inhabitents of the towns in question would agree.

The existing N3 will continue to remain open but - if the M/N1 is anything to go by - be downgraded to R status and the limit lowered to 80 km/h. That's not to say that people won't still do the 100 km/h (or more) but as Winters said, that's a matter for the Gardai. Incidentially, if I'm not mistaken, it HAS to remain open anyway as there must be an alternative route for vehicles not permitted on a motorway (Learners, mopeds etc).

I think you need to take a trip down this road and see for yourself the problems. Then you can come back on here and debate it.

lostexpectation

Winters wrote: »

Once again, I would actually urge people to go out and drive this route before making absolute incorrect and sweeping statements. For an example on average what should be an hour long journey at most from Navan to Dublin will take at least two to three hours. This was the case for just peak times however with the surge in population in the towns and villages along the route the journey does not take an hour and will usually take twice that.

quit trying to pretend like you know what you are talking about, I said they hasn't been delays in the building of the road, there were big articles in the paper last month saying the road was on schedule, but somehow the indo and gombeen ff councillors/td were saying lives were being lost and blaming those deaths on the protesters because of delays, in no scenario would the road have been built by now. I don't think the NRA was the construction companies would appreciate a rumour being spread that there are behind schedule.

_Kaiser_

lostexpectation wrote: »

quit trying to pretend like you know what you are talking about, I said they hasn't been delays in the building of the road, there were big articles in the paper last month saying the road was on schedule, but somehow the indo and gombeen ff councillors/td were saying lives were being lost and blaming those deaths on the protesters because of delays, in no scenario would the road have been built by now. I don't think the NRA was the construction companies would appreciate a rumour being spread that there are behind schedule.

The quote you refer to though is actually correct. Late at night or early morning you can indeed do Dublin to Kells/Virginia in about an hour.
During the day/rush hour it can easily take 90 minutes longer. Per my post above this is from someone who uses this road several times a day.

studiorat

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I think you need to take a trip down this road and see for yourself the problems. Then you can come back on here and debate it.

Skip back a few posts there horse. I did have a close one myself at the Rathoath junction, on a bike. Did the commute the opposite direction for about 3 years. Not nice in icy fog.

I didn't know the speed limit was 100K there though, thought is would have been around 60 or 80 max. Do you think that could be part of the problem?
The N11 is a 2 laner in each direction with a limit of 60k.

Either way the N3 will still be a death trap along that stretch, even with no traffic it's hairy enough for me.

_Kaiser_

studiorat wrote: »

Skip back a few posts there horse. I did have a close one myself at the Rathoath junction, on a bike. Did the commute the opposite direction for about 3 years. Not nice in icy fog.

I didn't know the speed limit was 100K there though, thought is would have been around 60 or 80 max. Do you think that could be part of the problem?
The N11 is a 2 laner in each direction with a limit of 60k.

Either way the N3 will still be a death trap along that stretch, even with no traffic it's hairy enough for me.

My bad. Didn't see your earlier post

The limit along the whole N3 - with the exception of the towns - is 100 km/h.
The problem though is people driving at an inappropriate speed for the conditions, or not lighting up in poor visibility, however, an advisory limit of 60 has indeed been put in at the Ratoath junction recently with the ongoing construction. On the plus side, when this is completed it should improve things a lot. There's a 60/50 limit just outside Dunshaughlin outbound as well since the construction started.

The N11 (because I used to work out in Shankhill) is ridiculous. 2/3 lanes and 60/80 limit. But then the number of junctions along the route make anything higher impossible.

I'll agree with you that the N3 will still be a death trap, probably more so in fact as when it loses it's N-road status, the maintenance requirements will go with it. Going by the state of most roads in Meath (except the N3-Trim road, and that's because Noel Dempsey uses it) it won't be long before the N3 becomes more of a pot holed nightmare than it already is (Kells for example)

studiorat

Mind you I've also met people coming the wrong way around the roundy bouts further in towards town on two occasions. The joys of 2 wheels!

Winters

studiorat wrote: »

Meath Chamber of commerce obviously have an interest in having the road built, since they have taken over the role of Roads Authority.

There is no such thing as the Meath Chamber Of Commerce. There is infact seperate bodies for Navan, Trim, Kells etc. Do you infact mean the Meath County Council?

studiorat wrote: »

I refer to the Red Express survey, Tara/Skyrne Valley National Public Opinion. Job no. 31027

No survey exists. Infact, no company called "Red Express" exist. There is a company called Redc and a survey of the same job number, so I shall assume this is what you are talking about, however their survey was paid for by Sacred Ireland, so can I not claim, like you do, that this is then infact biast as it was not a fully independent survey?

studiorat wrote: »

Firstly, You don’t need to be an engineer to know a safe road from a dangerous one

I know any person can spot a dangerous road. At no point did I state that only an engineer can spot a safe road from a dangerous road, please do not go putting words in my mouth trying to validate your arguement. Anyone travelling on the existing N3 at the moment can tell you it is a dangerous road.

studiorat wrote: »

The fact that your friends are working for SIAC, does not automatically make you an expert. More dismissive bullsh1t.

At what point did I say that any of this made me an expert? Please dont go putting words in my mouth to try and validate your arguements.

Please could you clarify your knowledge of road design. As a Mod here I'd guess you are probably a computer programmer of some sort rather than a civil engineer, I wait to stand corrected.

I myself am not a qualified Civil Engineer, at no point have I stated I am. I do however have immediate family members and friends who are and have worked on some of the largest engineering projects here in this country. Should I have any queries about any of the engineering aspects or details of the M3, or roads in general, I can have a answers, books, examples etc. in minutes. At no point have I have ever stated that my opinions are that of an expert in the engineering field.

I will go back to your origional point:

studiorat wrote: »

The N3 being a death trap is not an excuse for building a motorway either, why don't they just fix the N3? It will still be unsafe motor way or no.

If you upgrade and fix the existing N3 road then MORE damage would be done to the heritage area in question. Infact work would need to be carried out closer to the actual Hill of Tara itself (The new M3 route is much further away) and would also involve large works at Lismullin. For example look at the areas surrounding the N3 that would be damaged. As it stands any important archeological sites found with the M3 works is being monitored and worked.

Your proposal to upgrade and fix the current N3 would therefore be far more damaging than building the new M3 Motorway. The M3 would also be able to handle larger loads and move them faster than an upgraded N3 aswell as be safer due to free flowing junctions etc. An upgraded N3 would also not be a motorway but a national road allowed smaller minor roads to intersect it and traffic lights etc.

studiorat wrote: »

Did anyone even consider the WMF suggestions?

Can you provide more information for the WMF's (World Monuments Fund - wmf.org) proposal as to what should be done in the area in their opinion? Did they advise that no work should be done in the whole of Meath alone seeing as tho anywhere in Meath could be considered heritage importance?

Are they proposing the following?

using a 2+1 lane solution (not a motorway) and incorporating increased coach and bus routes and a rail link. The M3 Motorway would proceed to the Valley and beyond the Valley thus preserving the heritage section

This would be one of the worst ideas to ever be put forward. The idea of the motorway is to have two or more free floying lanes to carry traffic. As it stands the N3 road is all ready at capacity and requires more capacity. Not limiting it to one lane in one direction and two in the other. The road would also not be a motorway and thus would allow smaller minor roads to intersect it at junctions causing possible accident spots, which today by your own admitance you dreaded having to do.

The idea of anything less then a motorway is luducrus and is bad planning. Unless a motorway is built, in less than 10 years time the whole project is going to have to be revisited as traffic capacity once again becomes an issue.

studiorat wrote: »

So I suppose the Gardai put speed ramps up to slow down traffic? It is actually possible to construct systems on roads to slow down traffic, you may or may not have noticed.

Put speed ramps or construct slow down systems on a national road? You must be insane. The problem is the road is not fit for the amount of traffic passing through it, the Gardai may not be enforcing the 100km/h (National Roads) speed limit enough to quell the speeding of some motorists along the route and the various dangerous junctions including the two between Tara (Garlow Cross, where 3 people have died in the last 3 years, and Ross Cross) where they are almost blind.

studiorat wrote: »

The N3 will be moving faster with less people on it, one of the reasons the N3 is slow is caused by people driving too close to each other, causing a waves of cars slowing down in which they slow almost to a stop as this passes back along the line. This phenomenon can be observed on busy roads as cars standing still for apparently no reason.

This what you describe is to do with the volume of traffic on the road, which is why the M3 is needed. Free-flowing junctions and a faster 120km/h speed limit will mean that traffic is fast moving along the stretch of the M3 without the need to slow down for junctions etc. This is the aim for the motorway.

studiorat wrote: »

Obviously this has little to do with the motorway route, just thought I'd point in out as a matter of interest though.

I can assure you that the 1994 article you linked to is well known by engineers and has been for years. And do not use this old article as an attempt to undermine the motorway, what it describes also applies to national and local roads and engineers do actually work with this sort of things in mind.

studiorat wrote: »

Yes, parts of it used to be single lane, it was changed to a dual carraige way. Took a few lovely gardens and a couple of houses out with it too.

Yes and I personally know a very close friend who lost a part of his garden for the creation of the road in Glen of the Downs. Their problem was not the road but the actual protesters (Many of whom are the same people in Tara today) who caused more damage to the enviroment then the roadworks. Many of their rubbish and make-shift camps still visible for years afterwards. Since the completion of the road he has benefitted greatly in both noise levels, traffic congestion and lifestyle.

studiorat wrote: »

It is unfortunate in my opinion, but partly because of a low public awareness of the project, causing poor funding issues for those involved in objections. (I refer to a different Survey also by Red Experss). The objection by An Taisce also ran into trouble, not through it’s content but it’s preparation.

Poor public awareness? For months this has been all over the newspapers, television and internet. Whenever any sort of development takes place it will be in the media. Once again, there is no company called Red Express so I will assume you are talking about another Redc survery report and am trying to find it.

studiorat wrote: »

Please note though according to the BBC...
“The European Commission is considering legal action against the Irish government which granted itself the powers in 2004 to destroy features or areas of archaeological importance classified as national monuments if in the national interest.

Why 4 years later is this only being brought up?

As it stands National Monuments are protected under, for example, the National Monuments Act 2005. The Go-Ahead for the project given by The Minister for the Environment, Dick Roche in 2005 (May) was also after the act was brought in (April). So far the High Court has not been given any evidance to show that the M3 Motorway works have broken the laws under the National Monuments Act.

Reguardless of the opinions of people. There was ample time, infact a month(longer then most objections when looking at their website), for objections set out by An Bord Pleanála but no objections were made. If the Irish Government 4 years ago passed a law which gave them powers to destroy areas of importance why only now are the EU considering legal action? Did nobody bring it forward to the EU Commission 4 years ago when it first went through?

studiorat wrote: »

“Hundreds of academics, archaeologists and conservationist from around the world have written to the Irish government to register their opposition to the M3 route. Twenty-seven members of the European Parliament have written to the government also, after a visit to the area by some resulted in a highly critical report of the project.”

Why are they writing to the Government? The decision was not made by them but by An Bord Pleanála. If they have a complaint they should have lodged it with An Bord Pleanála during the discussions or failing that, the High Court. Which has been done and rejected by the High Court.

studiorat wrote: »

I’ll ask you again not to be so dismissive, I do in fact know the road, oddly enough I used to commute the opposite way to most (coming out of Dublin) on a motorcycle and then by car. So I’m aware of the situation facing drivers. It was a right turn across traffic I dreaded.

So, knowing the road, would you not agree that a motorway inplace that would move people quickly and safely along the Dublin to Donegal route would be of benefit to commuters and locals? As opposed to the current over-capicity and dangerous N3 route?

studiorat wrote: »

The NRA have taken the high moral ground here, regarding the accident incidence on the road, and are using it as a reason to go ahead with a route which most are opposed to. (see Dan Lavery Article).

The NRA do not need to take a moral high ground. The facts are out there from around thr world. Motorways do save lives over dangers national roads. I for one would welcome any opportunity to improve the roads and infrastructure of the country in order to save lives on what are some of the most dangerous roads in the country.

Do you have a link to the Dan Lavery Article by any chance? Or even know what publication it is from?

studiorat wrote: »

So what’s that then six hours? It’s pretty clear that the motorway will go ahead, on a flawed route. The planning went through 5 years ago, while very few were aware of it. There’s been enough side stepping and moving of goal posts to make sure of that. We’ll we all paid for the survey, even though the majority of didn’t know it was going on. And any objection has been slated as Ludite, and getting in the way of progress.

Yes, if it takes commuters 3 hours each way to get to work it would be 6 hours of commuting a day. Yes, it is clear the motorway will go ahead, the plan was approved years ago and there, as of yes, been no legal reasons as to why it should not have besides the personal opinions of a few. The plans of the motorway and planning were in no way secretave and were posted on various websites and publications. During the month long objection period it appears no objections were made, and I shall quote what I origionally posted:

In 2003 during the original 28 day objection period An Bord Pleanála had received no complaints about the proposed motorway. If it was such an issue then why not lodge complains during the official legal period and not wait until after the final decisions had been made? Have a search on their website: (http://www.pleanala.ie) the first official complaint was only lodged this year (Case: PL17 .LA0073)

And as I will also say as I have done above, complains should not be sent to the Government, it is not their decision on planning matters, but An Bord Pleanála and ultimitly the High Court. Which it all ready has been.

studiorat wrote: »

Breakfast roll man has had his day. Accompanied by the usual tarring with the same brush off all who oppose as lunatic and reactionary. And once again I'm embarrassed by the actions of a grubbing and near sighted Gov.

That Meath County Councils proposal would allow for infrastructure that would last as oppsed to the alternative proposal of a (2+1 lane) road which no doubt would not elivate the current over-capacity problems on the N2?


I would also just like to add:

that protesters were taking apart protective fencing and were digging on the site itself "causing impact on the area". ~NRA

If these protesters were so for the protection of the area why are they, with little to no archelogical background digging 10 meter long tunnels underground in what they would like to see as a protected heritage site? Who knows what possible damage they have done in their illegally tresspassing and excavation of over 10 meters of an underground tunnel since August 2007.

And also, I dont want to be mean but:

A woman who is demonstrating against the M3 roadworks is trapped in a tunnel that protestors dug at Rath Lugh. Supporters claim the woman is chained by the neck to a jack and any attempts to try and remove her will cause the tunnel to collapse ~ tarawatch.org

terrorism
n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

L1011

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Someone doens't watch his Simpsons.

No, I don't. Why does that matter in a debate, really?

Rovi

The troglodyte is on with Tubridy right now!-
http://www.rte.ie/radio/index.html

darkman2

Statement from NRA

Statement on Commencement Rath Lugh Works
The NRA entered into an understanding in good faith with protesters at Rath Lugh on Saturday March 15, 2008 under which the contractors work on fencing off the road land take and the construction of a haul road past the national monument would not be interfered with. However, over recent days continued protestor actions have not allowed the contractor to put in place protective fencing and construct the haul road. This interference is in direct breach of the understanding.

On Tuesday 18th March the contractor sought to erect fencing on the project boundary line, which is outside the area covered by the national monument Preservation Order. In addition the contractor sought to commence the construction of the haul road that had been clarified with the tunnel protestor on Saturday evening. In both areas violent protests ensued and the contractor ceased work due to safety concerns for his operatives and the protestors. As a result these important elements of the programme of works clarified with the tunnel protestor on Saturday were not achievable.
All of the clarifications discussed with the tunnel protestor on Saturday 15th March 2008 continue to apply including the review of the horizontal alignment in the environs of Rath Lugh, with the exception that the timing of a part of the works has been rescheduled following the advice of An Garda Siochana in light of the continued violent protests and their public order concerns. The situation requires the commitment of significant Garda resources to achieve a safe and secure working environment.

Due to the evolving situation and the taking into account serious Garda concerns the Authority has requested the contractor to advance the construction schedule and put in place a "box cut" (foot print of future road) within the construction zone at Rath Lugh. This action will identify where the road will be placed and remove all concerns as to the potential impact on the national monument.

The monument at Rath Lugh is under a permanent protective Ministerial order and a protective zone is already in place around the monument. The Authority will continue to liaise directly with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and will observe all requirements under the Ministerial order to protect the national monument.

Rovi

darkman2 wrote: »

Statement from NRA

So, it would appear that Squeal or Shrek or whatever her name was, was speaking for no-one but herself; are the NRA now going to have to hammer out a deal with each and every protester on an individual basis?

darkman2

I think what the NRA are saying there is that the protesters broke their agreement and they will now continue construction.

_Kaiser_

The Gardai should just arrest and remove the lot of them. Aren't they trespassing on a construction site after all?

lostexpectation

the nra are blamming the gardai for moving forward their construction schedule, and the Dept of environ for the mistakes on the maps, apparently the NRA is as infallible as the pope

Rovi

darkman2 wrote: »

I think what the NRA are saying there is that the protesters broke their agreement and they will now continue construction.

Ah, I know.
I was alluding to the NRA's naïveté in thinking that this crowd would abide by any agreement that didn't conform exactly to their demands.
Their raison d'être is fighting The Man and his Rules.

bauderline

Considering this and the recent trouble up in Finglas I am surprised the Gardai have not invested in a couple of water cannons. Great nonsense stoppers those yokes !

bauderline

NRA restarts work
- claiming M3 protesters broke truce

By - Tim O'Brien and Adam Harvey at Rath Lugh.

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority (NRA) has withdrawn its commitment to refrain from work on the M3 near Rath Lugh in Co. Meath, after what it said was continual "violent protests", and damage to fencing and equipment.

Instead the NRA yesterday instructed contractor Eurolink to bring forward work on a "box cut" - an outline for a future road - within the construction zone at Rath Lugh.

The authority said the outline would demonstrate that the M3 would not encroach on the national monument or the protection zone around it.

Protesters reacted with dismay at the move, saying they had been trying to stop work on the Rath Lugh "esker" - a glacial ridge - since last September, on the grounds that it is an integral part of the 2,000-year-old fort.

Gardaí moved on to the site yesterday to allow workers to build a two-metre tall spiked steel fence to separate the construction site from a protest encampment.

At the same time, gardaí searched tents in the protest encampment.

By early afternoon excavators and trucks had removed the portion of the hillside that had stood in the motorway's path. The esker was the last obstacle in the path of the motorway through the Gabhra Valley, which runs close to the Hill of Tara.

Three protesters were arrested at the site yesterday, said Insp. Pat Gannon from Navan Garda station. He said gardaí had searched the protesters' tents to look for weapons. None were found.

In a separate move yesterday, Minister for the Environment John Gormley visited the national monument and inspected maps and plans for the new road before declaring himself satisfied that the NRA proposals, if implemented as proposed, would result in the protection of the monument.

A spokesman for the NRA acknowledged that it had made a commitment on Saturday last to protester Lisa Feeney to have a one-month moratorium on construction work near Rath Lugh in order to persuade Ms. Feeney to leave the tunnel she had occupied for more than 60 hours.

However, the authority said it understood that in return the protesters would not interfere with a "haulage road" and fence being constructed to allow the contractor to move plant and equipment past Rath Lugh.

The NRA said matters worsened last Tuesday when the contractor "sought to erect fencing on the project boundary line, which is outside the area covered by the national monument preservation order".

"In addition the contractor sought to commence the construction of the haul road that had been clarified with the tunnel protester on Saturday evening. In both areas violent protests ensued and the contractor ceased work due to safety concerns for his operatives and the protesters".

The NRA also said contractor's equipment had been daubed with excrement and urine, something which was later confirmed by the Garda press office, which added that such daubing had been going on for the last week.

However, Ms. Feeney said yesterday she had no knowledge of violent demonstrations and said her fellow protesters were engaged in a peaceful protest. She said she had heard nothing about vehicles being interfered with in any way.

Ms. Feeney also maintained that the creation of a fence was never agreed with the NRA. The only contact protesters had with the fence that she had been aware of was in relation to people crawling under it, she said.

Ms. Feeney said she could not see why the NRA had reneged on its commitment to a moratorium on construction work "as I have kept my side of the bargain, I came out of the tunnel".

Dr. Muireann Ní Bhrolcháin of the Save Tara Campaign also said she have not heard anything about such incidents, adding that she sincerely hoped they had not happened.

Paddy O'Kearney, a spokesman for the Rath Lugh Direct Action group, said it was very upset that its efforts had failed.

"There isn't anything we can do," he said, gesturing towards dozens of gardaí lining the newly-built fence.

Of the claims that protesters threw excrement, or damaged construction fencing, he said: "It's absolutely not true".

A few protesters tried to run on to the construction site yesterday afternoon but were held back by workers and gardaí.

Others stood in a circle as a robed "druid" conducted a memorial service for the esker.

..... and ..... that's a wrap !

L1011

bauderline wrote: »

Considering this and the recent trouble up in Finglas I am surprised the Gardai have not invested in a couple of water cannons. Great nonsense stoppers those yokes !

Apparently being able to occasionally borrow one of the PSNI ones is seen as sufficient. Based on the current situation I'd be all for borrowing the PSNI, full stop - they've more than enough manpower to police the Dublin area too