Immigration Debate - Mature comments only please

barneysplash

There was an excellent program on BBC 2 last night about Eastern European Immigrants coming to the UK. Anyone else see it?

mick72

I did not see it. Was it good?

Is it on youtube yet?

Tea drinker

barneysplash wrote: »

There was an excellent program on BBC 2 last night about Eastern European Immigrants coming to the UK. Anyone else see it?

Barneysplash, are you going to get the ball rolling and make a comment either way?

Cheers

Blk150

Didnt see it myself.Would have liked to mind you.It's a very heated debate both here and in britain at present.IMO there is to many in the country and that is not in anyway meant as a racist opinion.Feel free to call me a nazi etc....:D

barneysplash

Yes, it was very good. It is not on Youtube yet, but here is a link to a clip http://www.bbc.co.uk/white/poles.shtml

Approx 1 Million Eastern Europeans, mostly Poles and Lithuanians have travelled to work in the UK since May 1 2004.

We have approx 400,000 eastern Europeans in Ireland, since no registration is required, an accurate estimate
is not easily made.

The program showed how people travel from eastern Europe in about 24 hours,
get a job picking vegatables or in a factory, sleep on a couch and be very content.
They get 3 times the money for the same work, sometimes even more.

We all know about the immigration of foreign people to Ireland since 2004.

My question is this:

Are these peeple here to stay? Or when things get better in their home countries, will they return?

What will this mean for us and them in the years to come?

Sure what about all the Irish who went to America, not just on the Famine Ships,
but since World War II to the 1990's when we were a net exporter of people. How many of them came home?

Look at what our links to America has meant for our economy, will Ireland Inc.
reap the benefit of these foreign people, many of whom are highly educated, but don' speak good English (Yet) ???

I think some will stay and some will go home.

What do you think?

I apologise for the poor grammer, but I just want to get the question out ther and start a good debate.

Tea drinker

The guys in the video don't seem 100% eager to work. The can outside the jobcentre was a giveaway.

Yeah, I'd have to say immigrants are a plus for us.
Maybe if we could get some polish politicians to work for, say 100K we could make some hefty savings

A lot of these people have a good standard of education, so are quite employable, will mix and integrate with Irish, while still maintaining their own culture.
I've had to compete with foreign workers for years, and with offshoring, and I have no problem with them, they have an excellent work ethic.
I think quite a few are here to stay (have bought houses, kids in school) , equally so a lot will leave to follow the work and money. Some are here to save as much as possible and get a little house at home. These people are leaving, and have been leaving for some time.
This "migrant" workforce is very good for Ireland, we spend SFA on them but we take tax from them all the same...

I'd say quite a few of the Irish who went abroad came home, my experience says 50-60% returned. I would think the very same motivational factors are at work with EE workers. And with EE economies getting better all the time I'm sure a similar number will retun home.

Downsides?
1. They definately added a little to the Housing bubble.
2. Are we addicted to foreign labour?
3. Some Irish who were "poorly equipped to re-equip themselves" lost out to foreign workers. Everyone is responsible for his own destiny, but am wondering how much FAS is helping with this.

barneysplash

Tea drinker wrote: »

Some Irish who were "poorly equipped to re-equip themselves" lost out to foreign workers. Everyone is responsible for his own destiny, but am wondering how much FAS is helping with this.

I have to say, I went into my local FAS office recently, just for a look around and they have got all sorts of initiatives for job hunters:

Free buses here and there
Free computer lessons
Free CV typing / phone / internet use
Free English lessons for foreign people
Extensive pamphlet information translated into several Baltic and Central European languages.


Combine that with the ever present power of your local library and you have a potent
combination of resources for those willing to learn - mostly foreign people who want to get ahead.

I agree that some will stay and some will return home.

Some Poles in the paper last year said that they had gone home with the intention of
staying because the missed their families and friends, but the temptation of high wages and ease of travel to Ireland was just too much for them to stay in Poland. Economics will always win I guess.

They also have a serious problem with political corruption at all levels over there.
So it must be addictive for them to live and work in a mature Western economy like ours where you can access public services without having to pay bribes.

The program last night even showed how immigrationtoPoland had started in earnest -
the absence of skilled workers in the Gdansk shipyards had created "job holes" now being filled by North Koreans and Ukrainians for example.

Tha Gopher

barneysplash wrote: »

They also have a serious problem with political corruption at all levels over there.

So they come to Ireland becauzzz.....

gurramok

The online BBC had an article saying that there are now more Poles leaving the UK than coming. (UK dream fades http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7281608.stm)

It's all economics, EE standard of living is catching up fast, it was only a matter of when not if, alot of these type of arrivals would return.

And Ireland ain't different no matter what vest interest tell you

El Stuntman

barneysplash wrote: »

IThey also have a serious problem with political corruption at all levels over there.
So it must be addictive for them to live and work in a mature Western economy like ours where you can access public services without having to pay bribes.

<coughs cornflakes all over screen>

I'm sure Frank Dunlop might have a thing to say about that

rstans

The problem I have is that there's nobody checking who is coming into the country. we are getting criminals coming in with no record checks so they have a clean slate to start their activities here. It's happening among the Polish community, gangs forming etc. I have no problem with people coming to work or to seek a better life but we have enough scumbags of our own.

merrionsq

The example of Irish going to America isn't relevant to a debate on "restricting" immigration. The Americans began restricting and doing checks on immigrants in 1882. In 1924 they applied quotas to every country on the number of immigrants who could enter America. And its gotten progressively tighter ever since. So lets have a real debate on what our immigration policy is, and why we need one.
If anyone wants to mention all the Irish who went to the UK, that's because pre-EEC they never really acknowledged our full independence and allowed Irish citizens to enter the UK and live like UK nationals.

El Stuntman

rstans wrote: »

The problem I have is that there's nobody checking who is coming into the country. we are getting criminals coming in with no record checks so they have a clean slate to start their activities here. It's happening among the Polish community, gangs forming etc. I have no problem with people coming to work or to seek a better life but we have enough scumbags of our own.

it's called the EU, not much we can do about it

Nevada

Its good to see the immigration debate is maturing. Several comments here and nobody freaking out over racism.

At the end of the day there are immigrants that are an asset and there are those that are a liability. There are those that will integrate and those incapable of integration. You dont need to look far for examples. All those that immigrate should be vetted as happens in sensible countries like Australia and the USA.

Nevada

El Stuntman wrote: »

it's called the EU, not much we can do about it

We can vote NO to Lisbon. We can vet immigrants from the EU and the EU can vet immigrants from Ireland and if Brussels does not like that, Brussels will be shown to be coercive.

bartholomewbinn

Nevada wrote: »

Its good to see the immigration debate is maturing. Several comments here and nobody freaking out over racism.

At the end of the day there are immigrants that are an asset and there are those that are a liability. There are those that will integrate and those incapable of integration. You dont need to look far for examples. All those that immigrate should be vetted as happens in sensible countries like Australia and the USA.

That’s because racism is not an issue here, Polish people are white Europeans like us. Cultural differences, yes, race differences no. And as they are EU citizens they can come and go as they please.

Fratton Fred

merrionsq wrote: »

If anyone wants to mention all the Irish who went to the UK, that's because pre-EEC they never really acknowledged our full independence and allowed Irish citizens to enter the UK and live like UK nationals.

Then why did ireland offer the same privilages to the British, do they consider Britain a colony? maybe it was because Britain and ireland had a free travel agreement in place.

It's funny, there is a lot of shock portrayed here about the "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" signs in 1960 bording houses, but in the 60s and 70s the irish in the UK were exactly the same as the poles here. Forming ghettos, sticking to their own, jesus, some of them even planted bombs and blew people up.

Emmigration/imkigration is a fact of life and a by product of a successful economy. it is relatively new to Ireland but get used to it, because it will be an ongoing feature of ireland's economic growth.

El Stuntman

Nevada wrote: »

We can vet immigrants from the EU and the EU can vet immigrants from Ireland and if Brussels does not like that, Brussels will be shown to be coercive.

does that happen in any EU state? linkage por favor

interesting if anyone does, surely it would be a barrier to freedom of movement??

barneysplash

On the road

Here is another question on the subject of driving:

Are other EU citizens allowed to drive here without an Irish license?

I don't drive so I don't know much about the rules.



Settling down

I work with about 25% foreign employees, and over the last 2 years or so, you can really see some of them putting down roots - Buying houses, Kids in school etc.

It seems that if you can get your own soap operas and news shows on satellite (Cywfra Polsat dishes) television and your own groceries (Samo Dobra shops) that you are halfway home. With the Internet video messaging and Ryanair style cheap flights, I think people will come and go across the continent for the foreseeable future. Just like in the USA, you can go anywhere across the entire continent if you please.


Sprekenzie Polski?

Can you speak any Polish? It is a very difficult language to learn. I have learned a few phrases and some IT terms. It is useful and amusing to walk along the street and hear Polish people talking and be able to know that they are Polish, not just "them foreigners"

gurramok

Another BBC article, soaring pay rates in Poland is luring them back. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7282923.stm

None of the dozen or so EE's i work with have bought houses here yet, they all rent. 2 have bought in Poland though.

flogen

The show was interesting - I wasn't too surprised to see the "dey tuk awrr jawbs" crowd refuse work in favour of the dole and a few cans of cheap beer in the afternoon.

I think a lot of people coming over here are doing so temporarily (relatively speaking). Many are just looking to generate money to settle back in their native country and as said countries improve economically they'll be more appealing to those hoping to return.

Of course there'll be plenty who stay too - be it intentional or a consequence of living here (They fall in love with the place or a citizen of the place!).

As the construction sector turns down I imagine we'll see the amount of eastern Europeans living here drop, and the amount coming here drop even more.

barneysplash

flogen wrote: »

As the construction sector turns down I imagine we'll see the amount of eastern Europeans living here drop, and the amount coming here drop even more.

I think it will, but you have to remember that in a slowing economy, the people who will work for the least money under the worst conditions rarely get the sack. This is true for all areas popular with non-natives - cleaning, catering, construction, security and general manual labour.

Just look at the Latino American migrant workers in the USA - they'll keep "jumping the border" as long as things are not satisfactory in their own lands. The vast majority of the migrants to Ireland now don't need any paperwork to come.

When the economy picks back up again in a year or two, I think they will return.

What do you think?

Fursey

gurramok wrote: »

The online BBC had an article saying that there are now more Poles leaving the UK than coming. (UK dream fades http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7281608.stm)

It's all economics, EE standard of living is catching up fast, it was only a matter of when not if, alot of these type of arrivals would return.

And Ireland ain't different no matter what vest interest tell you

Maybe I missed it but where does it say that?

cabinteelytom

It was a very funny program. The presenter had a great ingenuous Louis Theroux style 'helpful' manner. The mayor had clearly never seen an episode of gordon ramsay's kitchen disasters to know that he was being set up to fail. His idea of a 'welcome home' poster was the old boy at the Christmas table alone; the youthful expats had most interest in the female firefighters deserted by their menfolk.
The positive image of flat parts of Britain in flat parts of Poland was puzzling, undentable by experience, rationalised as financial only (which I doubt) but shared by all, even the people still in Poland, even the jobless expats sleeping rough! Two million of the young working adults leaving a country is a social catastrophe which few people in Poland seemed to realise, and which Ireland knows only too well.
Other losers were the bewildered unhappy teenage male youths, drinking in the afternoon, distaining the 'tatty hoaking' jobs their grandfathers escaped from, but also discarded by their society as 'lacking skills' ( such as bidability and reliability and early-rising) and increasingly peripheral to their district's unskilled low-wage economy.

cabinteelytom

The polish people came accross as likeable, possessed of a winning sense of humour, willing, hard-working, uncomplaining, and not looking to the dependency culture to solve their problems; but possibly needing the stimulus of finding themselves in a foreign culture to discover these qualities? Poland itself, possibly misrepresented in the interests of drama, looked like the land that time forgot.

View

Nevada wrote: »

We can vote NO to Lisbon. We can vet immigrants from the EU and the EU can vet immigrants from Ireland and if Brussels does not like that, Brussels will be shown to be coercive.

"Vetting" - whatever that means - would only be legal under EU law if applied to ALL EU citizens here (i.e. All Irish citizens as well as all other EU citizens). Somehow, I can't see the politicans rushing to tell Sean or Mary citizen that they are going to be "vetted" so the state can do the same to other EU citizens...

djpbarry

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Other losers were the bewildered unhappy teenage male youths, drinking in the afternoon, distaining the 'tatty hoaking' jobs their grandfathers escaped from, but also discarded by their society as 'lacking skills' ( such as bidability and reliability and early-rising) and increasingly peripheral to their district's unskilled low-wage economy.

An incredibly generous description if ever there was one. I think lazy ****ers would have sufficed.

RoseBlossom

Nevada wrote: »

We can vote NO to Lisbon. We can vet immigrants from the EU and the EU can vet immigrants from Ireland and if Brussels does not like that, Brussels will be shown to be coercive.

What difference would voting "No" to Lisbon make (in terms of this thread)? At the risk of sounding corny, the Treaty is about the future, not the past - voting No isn't going to allow us to renege on everything we've agreed to already.

Although, I understand a "Yes" vote would allow Member States to withdraw from the Union... it's like you can't win...;)
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/democracy/index_en.htm

Zambia

Once upon a time I was paid 4.25 an hour in a shop.

I moved abroad for a while and was paid 10.50 an hour to move rubbish.

I worked every hour my boss wanted me to an every task asked of me I was so amazed to received the cash.

My point being of course they work hard.

It appears through that being a successful economy leads to mass Immigration and the potential small diluting of irish culture so we either embrace it or slam on the brakes and live in 1980 - 90 for the rest of our lives. If we make Ireland a nice place to live its only logical other people will want to live here.

One day the poles will get pissed of with hoards of some other nationality pouring through their boarders into their blooming economy.

berliner

El Stuntman wrote: »

it's called the EU, not much we can do about it

Errr...vote against the lisbon traety for a start.

View

berliner wrote: »

Errr...vote against the lisbon traety for a start.

Voting for or against the Lisbon Treaty is not going to effect whether immigration happens, as the Lisbon Treaty doesn't say anything about it.
Freedom of Movement (of EU citizens) has been one of the basic principles of the EU (and its immediate predecessors) since the 1950s.

It is a concept that would prove almost impossible to change - care to speculate what the response from the other EU leaders would be were Bertie to ask for it to be changed because some people here have hang-ups about the citizens of other EU states that are living here?

(Personally, I'd doubt that most Irish people would vote in a referendum to change the principle when it was pointed out it would mean Irish people would no longer be free to move/live around the EU)

Fursey

Zambia232 wrote: »

Once upon a time I was paid 4.25 an hour in a shop.

I moved abroad for a while and was paid 10.50 an hour to move rubbish.

I worked every hour my boss wanted me to an every task asked of me I was so amazed to received the cash.

My point being of course they work hard.

It appears through that being a successful economy leads to mass Immigration and the potential small diluting of irish culture so we either embrace it or slam on the brakes and live in 1980 - 90 for the rest of our lives. If we make Ireland a nice place to live its only logical other people will want to live here.

One day the poles will get pissed of with hoards of some other nationality pouring through their boarders into their blooming economy.

It's more about controlling the numbers coming in IMO - turning areas into places where the Irish end up minority is just not on.

I notice that in this State some 16,000 more people signed on the dole since 1st January yet some 22,000 people arrived here from abroad and claimed a PPS number!:mad:

From what I can gather BTW Belfast has a tiny number of immigrants compared to Dublin - if you lived down here things might not look so rosy.

Fursey

View wrote: »

Voting for or against the Lisbon Treaty is not going to effect whether immigration happens, as the Lisbon Treaty doesn't say anything about it.
Freedom of Movement (of EU citizens) has been one of the basic principles of the EU (and its immediate predecessors) since the 1950s.

It is a concept that would prove almost impossible to change - care to speculate what the response from the other EU leaders would be were Bertie to ask for it to be changed because some people here have hang-ups about the citizens of other EU states that are living here?

(Personally, I'd doubt that most Irish people would vote in a referendum to change the principle when it was pointed out it would mean Irish people would no longer be free to move/live around the EU)

But there isn't free movement of workers in the EU anyway and IMO nor is there likley to be.

We voted on Nice on the clear understanding given by senior Irish politicians that Mass Immigration would not be the result - yet it was.

berliner

View wrote: »

Voting for or against the Lisbon Treaty is not going to effect whether immigration happens, as the Lisbon Treaty doesn't say anything about it.
Freedom of Movement (of EU citizens) has been one of the basic principles of the EU (and its immediate predecessors) since the 1950s.

It is a concept that would prove almost impossible to change - care to speculate what the response from the other EU leaders would be were Bertie to ask for it to be changed because some people here have hang-ups about the citizens of other EU states that are living here?

(Personally, I'd doubt that most Irish people would vote in a referendum to change the principle when it was pointed out it would mean Irish people would no longer be free to move/live around the EU)

99% of Irish people only go the the uk so the eu has no effect.I hate the whole eu project.It stinks to high heaven.:mad:

Mike...

berliner wrote: »

99% of Irish people only go the the uk so the eu has no effect.I hate the whole eu project.It stinks to high heaven.:mad:

+1
Agree, the whole EU thing is starting to show it's true colours,
Heard the newstalk debate on Lisbon, must say LIBERTAS presented a proper case, all the FF nomination to talk up could do was say that Libertas and "their friends in Sinn Fein were fools", again some A1 rethoric from FF, seems to me if you want to get something passed in Ireland all you need is SF on the other side

fly_agaric

*mono* wrote: »

+1
Agree, the whole EU thing is starting to show it's true colours,

LOL, I thought we Irish loved* the EU!!:D

*until the streams of cash dried up and were replaced by streams of economic migrants.

johnnyskeleton

berliner wrote: »

99% of Irish people only go the the uk so the eu has no effect.I hate the whole eu project.It stinks to high heaven.:mad:

Sounds like nonsense to me. Maybe the type of person who says "I won't eat that foreign muck or be bothered to parle vous francais" will only go to the UK, but loads of Irish people go to Germany, France, Belgium etc, and you'll find others in every other European Country. This could be for a few years or it could be for life.

This , if I'm reading it correctly puts about a quarter of Irish migrants going to the UK, and it puts the amount going to the 27 Country EU as higher than going to the UK.

This is of course not to mention the massive impact the EU has had on our economy, infrastructre, culture, environment, and laws (now more consumer/employee friendly than ever), and that we are now part of a major world power as opposed to being a poor, tiny island. We are still governed by corrupt politicians, but at least the EU ameliorates some of their negative effect.

And of course, you can go on holidays anywhere in the EU cheaply and easily, and Sweedish, Dutch, Italian and Polish girls are all free to come here as they please.

So, whatever about the global effects of the EU, it is the best thing that ever happened to Ireland, and while I'm open to hearing the debate on the Lisbon treaty, I would need something more solid than Gerry Adams saying "It gives us less power and we had very little say in the drafting of the treaty".

/rant

Zombrex

Fursey wrote: »

I notice that in this State some 16,000 more people signed on the dole since 1st January yet some 22,000 people arrived here from abroad and claimed a PPS number!:mad:

And ... ?

Are you suggesting that the 22,000 theoretical jobs that were filled by migrant workers should be going to the 16,000 who are on the Live Register (the Live Register is not a measure of unemployment by the way)

A leaving cert business studies student could explain the flaw in that type of kindergarten economics.

If an American jeans factory in Donegal closes the workers and their families there don't all just pack up and move to Cork to work in a new call centre or a McDonalds that is being filled with migrant workers.

The future economic issues facing the country are a little more complicated than that.

Zambia

Fursey wrote: »

From what I can gather BTW Belfast has a tiny number of immigrants compared to Dublin - if you lived down here things might not look so rosy.

Lived in Dublin long enough. I never said thing where rosy.

But you are correct in comparisson to Dublin, Belfast does have a small number of immigrants. To explain this Google "racist capital of europe"

View

Fursey wrote: »

But there isn't free movement of workers in the EU anyway and IMO nor is there likley to be.

Lots of workers move around the EU freely already. With the exception of citizens from some of the newer states (which are "in transition" for 10 years or so), EU citizens have a right to take up a job in any EU state that they want.

Fursey wrote: »

We voted on Nice on the clear understanding given by senior Irish politicians that Mass Immigration would not be the result - yet it was.

The Nice treaty, like the Lisbon treaty, did not alter the principle of free movement of people. If any EU economy performs strongly resulting in lots of job vacancies, these are there to be filled by any EU citizen and you get the migration of EU citizens to fill the vacancies.

It just happened to be our turn this time - in the past we were the ones migrating to other member states (mainly the UK) to fill the vacancies. Mind you people complained even more when their friends and families were leaving in droves - I guess it just goes to show people will always find something to complain about

View

berliner wrote: »

99% of Irish people only go the the uk so the eu has no effect.I hate the whole eu project.It stinks to high heaven.:mad:

True, historically the majority have gone to the UK but that doesn't mean a minority haven't gone elsewhere (Me for one!).

As for the UK, they would have been perfectly entitled at any stage to refuse to accept immigrants from Ireland (up to the accession of Ireland and the UK to the European Communities (EEC/ECSC/EAEC) in 1973). I doubt it would have proved electorally unpopular for British politicans to ban immigrants from the RoI had they so choosen. All they would have had to do was wait for an IRA bomb in the 70s, and banned all immigrants from the RoI on "security" grounds, and we'd have been so far up sh*t creek it wouldn't have been funny.

berliner

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sounds like nonsense to me. Maybe the type of person who says "I won't eat that foreign muck or be bothered to parle vous francais" will only go to the UK, but loads of Irish people go to Germany, France, Belgium etc, and you'll find others in every other European Country. This could be for a few years or it could be for life.

This , if I'm reading it correctly puts about a quarter of Irish migrants going to the UK, and it puts the amount going to the 27 Country EU as higher than going to the UK.

This is of course not to mention the massive impact the EU has had on our economy, infrastructre, culture, environment, and laws (now more consumer/employee friendly than ever), and that we are now part of a major world power as opposed to being a poor, tiny island. We are still governed by corrupt politicians, but at least the EU ameliorates some of their negative effect.

And of course, you can go on holidays anywhere in the EU cheaply and easily, and Sweedish, Dutch, Italian and Polish girls are all free to come here as they please.

So, whatever about the global effects of the EU, it is the best thing that ever happened to Ireland, and while I'm open to hearing the debate on the Lisbon treaty, I would need something more solid than Gerry Adams saying "It gives us less power and we had very little say in the drafting of the treaty".

/rant

Tiny per cent of irish go to europe because we're an anglacised nation so we go to uk/usa/australia etc. We could have borrowed the money to build our infrastructure on the money markets without the strings attached that the corrupt EU imposed.This EU money argument is bogus.

djpbarry

berliner wrote: »

We could have borrowed the money to build our infrastructure on the money markets without the strings attached that the corrupt EU imposed.

Is that right? Could you outline exactly how this could have been achieved?

View

berliner wrote: »

Tiny per cent of irish go to europe because we're an anglacised nation so we go to uk/usa/australia etc. We could have borrowed the money to build our infrastructure on the money markets without the strings attached that the corrupt EU imposed.This EU money argument is bogus.

At one stage in the 80s, we were borrowing money to pay the interest we owed on the national debt every year - that's right, to pay the interest (not the debt itself). Saying we should have borrowed more is akin to telling an alcoholic he should take up heroin to help him get over his alcohol problem..